Blackpill How to determine if someone needs a CCW rotation?

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Which factors are important?
I guess Gonial angle.
Trying to learn
 
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How to determine if someone needs a CCW rotation site:looksmax.me
Screenshot 20200226 141547 Samsung Internet
 
Reoreyh

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Which factors are important?
I guess Gonial angle.
Trying to learn

If it's needed for their molars to line up when changing the position of the jaw, then they do a rotation.

Why would anyone ever get a clock wise rotation.

Sometimes it's needed. I happen to need a clockwise rotation so that my molars line up when I get my advancement.

 
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I'm getting a CW rotation that has nothing to do with my maxilla. Yours is going to influence your maxilla's size/position? Can you elaborate?
I have class III and what seems to be vertical maxillary deficiency. I’ve spoken to a few surgeons—initially, I was on the “CCW rotation only” train, and the first surgeon I spoke to basically just said yeah it’s doable, but tbh I wish he had informed me more on why it’s not really needed in my case. The other ones did though, and one recommends an anterior downgraft iirc. Also, my incisors are significantly tipped forwards (to try to compensate for my class iii), so once this is also fixed, my philtrum will elongate a bit, leading to a longer apparent midface as well.

I didn’t really want to accept that my midface could be too compact (really thought I wanted CCW and if anything, to keep the current length of my midface intact), but then I started taking high quality photographs, morphing them, and realized my midface is indeed too compact. I also measured the pupil to upper vermillion distance and it is about 3-5mm below average—couple that with an above average IPD (70.5mm), and it makes my face seem far too compact.
 
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If it's needed for their molars to line up when changing the position of the jaw, then they do a rotation.



Sometimes it's needed. I happen to need a clockwise rotation so that my molars line up when I get my advancement.

So you cant really know if someone really needs it? Because you are just guessing the new jaw position after surgery. :feelswhere:
 
Reoreyh

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I have class III and what seems to be vertical maxillary deficiency. I’ve spoken to a few surgeons—initially, I was on the “CCW rotation only” train, and the first surgeon I spoke to basically just said yeah it’s doable, but tbh I wish he had informed me more on why it’s not really needed in my case. The other ones did though, and one recommends an anterior downgraft iirc. Also, my incisors are significantly tipped forwards (to try to compensate for my class iii), so once this is also fixed, my philtrum will elongate a bit, leading to a longer apparent midface as well.

I didn’t really want to accept that my midface could be too compact (really thought I wanted CCW and if anything, to keep the current length of my midface intact), but then I started taking high quality photographs, morphing them, and realized my midface is indeed too compact. I also measured the pupil to upper vermillion distance and it is about 3-5mm below average—couple that with an above average IPD (70.5mm), and it makes my face seem far too compact.

Yeah I'm learning that there are few absolutes when it comes to the complex nature of jaw surgery. Gaining a little midface height isn't so bad in reality versus photos, where the forward projection and three dimensional aspect of your face are muted.
So you cant really know if someone really needs it? Because you are just guessing the new jaw position after surgery. :feelswhere:

You think a surgeon spends years corresponding with an ortho, doing numerous consultations and xrays just to guess where he's going to put your jaw during the operation? Even I can tell you right now that I for sure need CW because of the gap between my molars when I simulate the final position of my lower teeth. Yeah, I wish it wasn't the case because I'd like to have a smaller gonial angle, but the height I'll gain in my chin will be totally worth it.
 
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Yeah I'm learning that there are few absolutes when it comes to the complex nature of jaw surgery. Gaining a little midface height isn't so bad in reality versus photos, where the forward projection and three dimensional aspect of your face are muted.


You think a surgeon spends years corresponding with an ortho, doing numerous consultations and xrays just to guess where he's going to put your jaw during the operation? Even I can tell you right now that I for sure need CW because of the gap between my molars when I simulate the final position of my lower teeth.
A surgeon can calculate everything with xrays etc. But some people here can tell that you need a ccw rotation just from the side profile. Thats why im curious
 
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A surgeon can calculate everything with xrays etc. But some people here can tell that you need a ccw rotation just from the side profile. Thats why im curious

I'd believe that some people here can tell if you need CCW rotation based on a ceph. No one's side profile indicates occlusion, though. And there's really almost no one on this site you can totally trust. I was told I needed CCW with a fucking impaction by so called forum experts. Now I'm personally equipped to dismiss that even independant of my surgeon's opinion.
 
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Yeah I'm learning that there are few absolutes when it comes to the complex nature of jaw surgery. Gaining a little midface height isn't so bad in reality versus photos, where the forward projection and three dimensional aspect of your face are muted.
It might be a bit of a cope but I was somewhat relieved/maybe even thrilled that I have the problem of too compact a midface—it seems to be easier to address as well as yields some great results with CW rotation—plus I have an underbite and some of the most famous before and afters are of underbites as well. I’ve done morphs of myself with these procedures and the other ones I want to have done, and even a subtle increase in midface length, along with correcting my bite, will help me greatly.
 
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Which factors are important?
I guess Gonial angle.
Trying to learn
if your chin is recessed, you need a CCW to improve the gonial angle, so the chin gets aligned with the philtrum
 
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if your chin is recessed, you need a CCW to improve the gonial angle, so the chin gets aligned with the philtrum

Stop conflating chin with jaw. If you chin is recessed you need genio. No CCW operation has a suture at the chin.
 
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Where did you get this picture?
Concede it’s stupid to assume CCW rotation is some sort of given for a good aesthetic result first
 
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It might be a bit of a cope but I was somewhat relieved/maybe even thrilled that I have the problem of too compact a midface—it seems to be easier to address as well as yields some great results with CW rotation—plus I have an underbite and some of the most famous before and afters are of underbites as well. I’ve done morphs of myself with these procedures and the other ones I want to have done, and even a subtle increase in midface length, along with correcting my bite, will help me greatly.

If your midface is too compact, getting an operation will still leave you with a compact midface. One that's better proportioned, is all.
 
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If your midface is too compact, getting an operation will still leave you with a compact midface. One that's better proportioned, is all.
Depends—if your top incisors are tipped forward, and after surgery they are now in a natural, near vertical inclination, this will indeed lower your upper border of your top lip by anywhere between 1-3mm depending on the severity. My upper incisors are so tipped that in an x-ray, my bite from my front teeth looked like an actual bird beak
 
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Depends—if your top incisors are tipped forward, and after surgery they are now in a natural, near vertical inclination, this will indeed lower your upper border of your top lip by anywhere between 1-3mm depending on the severity. My upper incisors are so tipped that in an x-ray, my bite from my front teeth looked like an actual bird beak

Will you be in braces post op? With band most likely? I think you'll be happy with your tooth show in three dimensions when all is said and done.
 
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Concede it’s stupid to assume CCW rotation is some sort of given for a good aesthetic result first



I thought clock wise made your jaw look downwards grown face and lms in his waw5 showed me that foreward growth was the way to go.
 
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I thought clock wise made your jaw look downwards grown face and lms in his waw5 showed me that foreward growth was the way to go.

The aesthetic result of a CW rotation depends entirely on the height of your ramus and length of the mandible. Downward grown faces are indeed disgusting but I believe in practice most of us would trade a few degrees off our gonial angle for millimeters of lower third height.
 
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I thought clock wise made your jaw look downwards grown face and lms in his waw5 showed me that foreward growth was the way to go.
When you say jaw do you mean it can lead to a higher finial angle?


Will you be in braces post op? With band most likely? I think you'll be happy with your tooth show in three dimensions when all is said and done.
Ive been given different options by surgeons, some are surgery first braces second
 
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The aesthetic result of a CW rotation depends entirely on the height of your ramus and length of the mandible. Downward grown faces are indeed disgusting but I believe in practice most of us would trade a few degrees off our gonial angle for millimeters of lower third height.

IMG 20200226 141245



Would CW benefit me
 
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You don't immediately strike me as a jaw surgery candidate. But like I said previous, rotation is about occlusion. I can't see your teeth, fam.



Is their any surgery to lengthen ramus?
 
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Your ramus is tall as fuck and your gonial angle is also good. Shave.
He’s mentally ill. I don’t mean it as an insult; the more you get to know him, the more you realize how much help he needs, therapeutically.
 
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Ramus


He has an alien male model tier gonial angle, but your ramus is just as fucking tall bro.
 
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Shave your beard completely and then spend the proceeding 4 days shaving only your neck up to your jaw. See which level of stubble looks best.
 
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Shave your beard completely and then spend the proceeding 4 days shaving only your neck up to your jaw. See which level of stubble looks best.



I have a bad hyoid
 
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I have a bad hyoid

You have a worse beard. My hyoid sucks too, but I got lean to compensate. You'll look objectively better with less beard in any case, AND you'll be able to show us better what you need. Maybe we could recommend a neck lipo? Can't tell till you show us.
 
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@Reoreyh btw what made you so knowledgeable, relative to the average poster here?
 
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Yea isnt the best angle close to 90°?

90 Looks comical like Minecraft, from the front would not be Angular at all so is not a good thing, 128 would to 115 is ideal

Images 43


(There is a difference in the chin but is not realistic just Jew propaganda Idk what is the original pic).
 
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Depends—if your top incisors are tipped forward, and after surgery they are now in a natural, near vertical inclination, this will indeed lower your upper border of your top lip by anywhere between 1-3mm depending on the severity. My upper incisors are so tipped that in an x-ray, my bite from my front teeth looked like an actual bird beak
I have the exact same. The proinclination of my upper incisors make me look like I have half of homer simpsons mouth. Cant wait for surgery.
View attachment 283323

chin ascension with CCW without genio
That has to be with a genioplasty.
 
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Go to an Oral surgeon if you want to know what your face needs. Nobody on this website knows more than a certified surgeon.
 

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