Masseter size and CCW Rotation relationship GTFIH LOOKSMAXERS!!!!!

[Deleted member 14280]

Basically this study confirms positive consequences on chewing according to PSL standards

The aim of this study was to investigate the relationship between masseter muscle size and craniofacial morphology, focusing on the maxilla. Twenty-four patients (11 males and 13 females; mean age 27.6 ± 5.6 years) underwent cephalometric analyses. Ultrasonography was used to measure the cross-sectional area (CSA) of the masseter muscle and bite force was measured using pressure sensitive film.

The results showed that CSA-relaxed was positively correlated with upper anterior face height (UAFH)/total anterior face height (TAFH) and negatively with lower anterior face height (LAFH)/TAFH and LAFH (P < 0.05). CSA-clenched was correlated positively with SN-palatal, FH-palatal, UAFH/TAFH, and lower posterior face height (LPFH)/total posterior face height (TPFH) and negatively with LAFH/TAFH, LAFH, upper posterior face height (UPFH)/TPFH, and UPFH (P < 0.05). Bite force was positively correlated with LPFH/TPFH and negatively with UPFH/TPFH (P < 0.05). As the masseter became larger, the anterior maxillary region tended to shift downwards relative to the cranial base, whereas the posterior region tended to shift upwards. The decrease in LAFH/TAFH and increase in LPFH/TPFH as the size of the masseter muscle increases may be influenced not only by the inclination of the mandibular plane but also by the clockwise rotation of the maxilla.

TLDR: WITH INCREASED MASSETER SIZE (CHEWING), THERE IS CCW ROTATION AND INCREASE IN POSTERIOR FACIAL HEIGHT ( MAKING THE MANDIBLE GET CLOSER TO BEING PARALEL TO FRANKFURT PLANE ) AND DECREASE IN ANTERIOR FACIAL HEIGHT ( SHORTER MIDFACE )

Relationship between masseter muscle size and maxillary morphology

Abstract. The aim of this study was to investigate the relationship between masseter muscle size and craniofacial morphology, focusing on the maxilla. Twenty-fo

academic.oup.com

BEST OF THE BEST RN @Gargantuan @her @thecel

 

[betamanlet]

As the masseter became larger, the anterior maxillary region tended to shift downwards relative to the cranial base, whereas the posterior region tended to shift upwards.

 

[Deleted member 14280]

Also @thecel i found another studie that positively correlated temporalis muscle size to antero-posterior lenght of the neurocraniun (yes i know u like that elongated gigahead). Lifefuel for u

 

[Deleted member 14280]

View attachment 1187378

can i know wtf is this?

 

[Deleted member 14280]

o

View attachment 1187378

hhhh noooooooooooooooooooo. i got it. FUCK.
I CONFUSED THE POSTERIOR FOR ANTERIOR LMAOOOOO ITS CLOCK WISE ROTATION

 

[betamanlet]

can i know wtf is this?

Dude listened to Brett Maverick's advice and began clenching his teeth 24/7 lol.

 

[Deleted member 14280]

Dude listened to Brett Maverick's advice and began clenching his teeth 24/7 lol.

shit... im so glad i only started doing this last week

 

[Deleted member 14280]

Dude listened to Brett Maverick's advice and began clenching his teeth 24/7 lol.

thanks buddy you might have saved my life

 

[Deleted member 2729]

Basically this study confirms positive consequences on chewing according to PSL standards

The aim of this study was to investigate the relationship between masseter muscle size and craniofacial morphology, focusing on the maxilla. Twenty-four patients (11 males and 13 females; mean age 27.6 ± 5.6 years) underwent cephalometric analyses. Ultrasonography was used to measure the cross-sectional area (CSA) of the masseter muscle and bite force was measured using pressure sensitive film.

The results showed that CSA-relaxed was positively correlated with upper anterior face height (UAFH)/total anterior face height (TAFH) and negatively with lower anterior face height (LAFH)/TAFH and LAFH (P < 0.05). CSA-clenched was correlated positively with SN-palatal, FH-palatal, UAFH/TAFH, and lower posterior face height (LPFH)/total posterior face height (TPFH) and negatively with LAFH/TAFH, LAFH, upper posterior face height (UPFH)/TPFH, and UPFH (P < 0.05). Bite force was positively correlated with LPFH/TPFH and negatively with UPFH/TPFH (P < 0.05). As the masseter became larger, the anterior maxillary region tended to shift downwards relative to the cranial base, whereas the posterior region tended to shift upwards. The decrease in LAFH/TAFH and increase in LPFH/TPFH as the size of the masseter muscle increases may be influenced not only by the inclination of the mandibular plane but also by the clockwise rotation of the maxilla.

View attachment 1187370 TLDR: WITH INCREASED MASSETER SIZE (CHEWING), THERE IS CCW ROTATION AND INCREASE IN POSTERIOR FACIAL HEIGHT ( MAKING THE MANDIBLE GET CLOSER TO BEING PARALEL TO FRANKFURT PLANE ) AND DECREASE IN ANTERIOR FACIAL HEIGHT ( SHORTER MIDFACE )

Relationship between masseter muscle size and maxillary morphology

Abstract. The aim of this study was to investigate the relationship between masseter muscle size and craniofacial morphology, focusing on the maxilla. Twenty-fo

academic.oup.com

BEST OF THE BEST RN @Gargantuan @her @thecel

Lifefuel I will keep chewing. I chew with temporalis and masseter but I think that's not that bad. I think since I started mew & chew my mandible got better.

Dude listened to Brett Maverick's advice and began clenching his teeth 24/7 lol.

Wait is this really the reason? Dude got recessed af. Why the fuck would you clench your teeth anyway jfl

 

[Deleted member 14280]

Lifefuel I will keep chewing. I chew with temporalis and masseter but I think that's not that bad. I think since I started mew & chew my mandible got better.

Wait is this really the reason? Dude got recessed af. Why the fuck would you clench your teeth anyway jfl

sorry bro i confused posterior for anterior its actually CW rotation

 

[betamanlet]

thanks buddy you might have saved my life

Just keep your teeth together in a relaxed manner, that will benefit you. Clenching will most likely fuck you up. Remember that bone requires only 1-2 grams of sustained force in order to change over time. This is how you'll change just by keeping your molars in contact:

 

[Deleted member 2729]

sorry bro i confused posterior for anterior its actually CW rotation

Maybe it makes the ramus longer/taller thus increasing lower facial height. Not always is the reason a rotation

 

[Deleted member 14280]

Just keep your teeth together in a relaxed manner, that will benefit you. Clenching will most likely fuck you up. Remember that bone requires only 1-2 grams of sustained force in order to change over time. This is how you'll change just by keeping your molars in contact:

View attachment 1187389

my molar cant even make contact jfl

 

[betamanlet]

my molar cant even make contact jfl

Do you have underbite? By striving for molar contact your condyles will remodel and eventually you'll be able to do it.

 

[Deleted member 14280]

Maybe it makes the ramus longer/taller thus increasing lower facial height. Not always is the reason a rotation

anyways cw rotation is death tier to someone with someone with an already long midface

 

[Deleted member 14280]

Do you have underbite? By striving for molar contact your condyles will remodel and eventually you'll be able to do it.

i actually have overbite and deep bite

 

[Deleted member 2729]

anyways cw rotation is death tier to someone with someone with an already long midface

Does it explicity state cw rotation?

 

[betamanlet]

i actually have overbite and deep bite

Which teeth touch first when you bring your jaws together?

 

[Deleted member 14280]

Which teeth touch first when you bring your jaws together?

canines and pre molars

 

[Deleted member 14280]

Does it explicity state cw rotation?

no...

 

[Deleted member 2729]

no...

then imo you're overthinking tbh

 

[betamanlet]

canines and pre molars

Well just keep premolars in contact then. Also suction the anterior portion of your palate with the tip of your tongue so as to provide and upward force without tensing the suprahyoid muscles.

 

[SOS-Sonic]

@betamanlet for CCW rotation, why would we have the molars in contact? From a point of physics, wouldn't separating the molars and having the premolars in contact (what I'm experimenting with rn) cause CCW rotation?

Edit: I just saw your post right after I wrote this.

 

[SOS-Sonic]

canines and pre molars

Same bro, I'm chewing as well with my molars, but I am trying to keep them apart when I mew. This way I can build my ramus and increase my posterior facial height with chewing, while avoiding a short box-face by separating my molars.

 

[Deleted member 8744]

Can u put this in words that a dumbass can understand?
(I’m the dumbass)

 

[betamanlet]

theyre just supposed to be very lighting touching right

Yeah. Enough to support the maxilla but not so much as to create tension in your masticatory muscles. It should be kind of a natural thing that happens automatically as an extension of standing straight and tall.

 

[betamanlet]

On the other hand, this guy clenched his teeth 24/7.

I looked around a lot of looksmax forums to find what would work best. All my time browsing helped me find greats tips, but ultimately the nature of those sites has left me misogynistic and very insecure about my looks. Ill save you the trouble and let you know what I found that worked best. 1. Clench your jaw always, not super hard, but decently enough. And work your way up to more force, try to get to the point where you clench your jaws at night and wake up feeling sore in your masseters. Truthfully its probably unhealthy, but bullshit like chewing on those "jawline trainers" just won't work. The best looking men like Brad Pitt, or Henry Cavill, or Penn Badgley all have one thing in common. Strong masseteres, the key to strong masseteres, probably bruxism. Look up pictures of college wrestlers. Clenching your jaw is essential to mewing. Id go as far as to say its more important than tongue posture. When you clench your jaw it allows you to apply more pressure with your tongue, it also widens your face, and because it widens your face, your zygomatic bones (your cheek bones) that rest on top of it are pulled outwards as well, this creates a sort hollow effect as more empty space is created between your stronger masseters and newly widened cheekbones.

 

[Deleted member 13754]

Ok can someone high iq decide if increasing masseter size correlates with a shorter or longer midface. I’m not gonna start doing a fuck ton of chewing just to get even more cw rotation lol

 

[Deleted member 10330]

Basically this study confirms positive consequences on chewing according to PSL standards

The aim of this study was to investigate the relationship between masseter muscle size and craniofacial morphology, focusing on the maxilla. Twenty-four patients (11 males and 13 females; mean age 27.6 ± 5.6 years) underwent cephalometric analyses. Ultrasonography was used to measure the cross-sectional area (CSA) of the masseter muscle and bite force was measured using pressure sensitive film.

The results showed that CSA-relaxed was positively correlated with upper anterior face height (UAFH)/total anterior face height (TAFH) and negatively with lower anterior face height (LAFH)/TAFH and LAFH (P < 0.05). CSA-clenched was correlated positively with SN-palatal, FH-palatal, UAFH/TAFH, and lower posterior face height (LPFH)/total posterior face height (TPFH) and negatively with LAFH/TAFH, LAFH, upper posterior face height (UPFH)/TPFH, and UPFH (P < 0.05). Bite force was positively correlated with LPFH/TPFH and negatively with UPFH/TPFH (P < 0.05). As the masseter became larger, the anterior maxillary region tended to shift downwards relative to the cranial base, whereas the posterior region tended to shift upwards. The decrease in LAFH/TAFH and increase in LPFH/TPFH as the size of the masseter muscle increases may be influenced not only by the inclination of the mandibular plane but also by the clockwise rotation of the maxilla.

View attachment 1187370 TLDR: WITH INCREASED MASSETER SIZE (CHEWING), THERE IS CCW ROTATION AND INCREASE IN POSTERIOR FACIAL HEIGHT ( MAKING THE MANDIBLE GET CLOSER TO BEING PARALEL TO FRANKFURT PLANE ) AND DECREASE IN ANTERIOR FACIAL HEIGHT ( SHORTER MIDFACE )

Relationship between masseter muscle size and maxillary morphology

Abstract. The aim of this study was to investigate the relationship between masseter muscle size and craniofacial morphology, focusing on the maxilla. Twenty-fo

academic.oup.com

BEST OF THE BEST RN @Gargantuan @her @thecel

Hi there.
So it’s increase or decrease in gonial angle ?
It’s shortening of midface?
shortens chin ?

 

[tiagomiguel]

This is the second time i've seen this study here.

First of all, maybe i am low IQ but, how the hell massester size doesn't affect bite force? Isn't the muscle main funtion to give more bite force?
Second, 90% + of people who have bigger massesters than usual nowadays is duo to clenching, that has for sure a negative impact on the face, so chewing may have nothing to do with participant's massester size. Clenching is not bite, that's because bite force doesn't increase???

View attachment 1187378

This guy never chew, he hard clench and jut is jaw at the same time constantly for months, lol. Said by himself in a thread on reddit asking for help.

 

[Chintuck22]

Dude listened to Brett Maverick's advice and began clenching his teeth 24/7 lol.

i) I think his masseter became sore and innactive, and as a result of that, the forces pushed the bone in the opposite direction and he got the changes from the picture. This is what i call the point of negative results, when the point of maximum yield (for chondrocyte proliferation) is overdone, so the bone won't follow in the opposite direction (as desired, low ramus), but rather in the direction of the force (as undesired, high ramus);

He really got changes accordingly to muscle force induction (reverseably), so my observation might be actually plausable and legit.

ii) If you take a look at the patients who've extracted their teeths, their mandible and upper jaw is receding, which happens when that area is not stimulated by force (chewing), so they have a facial recession over time, vertical recession (which is what the upper guy got)

This leads me to believe that we need to exert the force if we want the opposite from bone loss, which happens when you extract your teeths.

iii) so like we previously said, toth loss, and therefore bone loss, but what if the guy just clenched his jaw while having extracted tooth, or like a crossbite (so the forces were exerted at different volume at each specific place), this picture could help us to see how forces are exerted from the muscles to the toth;

iv) To adress this change of ramus lowering;

Chondrocyte proliferation does work when the bone is under a stress, so it adapts accordingly to the force it's given.

Chewing is no exception, it can lower your ramus, such as seen in bruxism patients, but it takes enormous amount of time to attain low ramus without bruxism, i would advise you to chew consistently, like daily and 2x times daily... (This is subjective to your TMJ):

@Ryan upload more results bro

With chondrocyte proliferation, you can expand the clavicle size that way even - Look at Steve Revees, bodybuilder who got a wide shoulders from home training. There's also the harley road shoulder widening program, results speaks for themselves. You have to do all of this for prolonged period of time, we are talking about years...

 

[EsotericPaternalism]

He said he only clenched when trying to look good lol.

 

[Soalian]

Ok, therefore if I want to shorten philtrum and getting more upper lip expsoure, I could atrophy masseter muscle, right ?

 

[189]

There's also the harley road shoulder widening program, results speaks for themselves. You have to do all of this for prolonged period of time, we are talking about years...

is it legit? elab

 

[Celexawer]

can i know wtf is this?

Guy got jaw cucked by applying pressure

Developed an antigonial notch, so bone remodeling is possible (but it's reddit so nvm)

looksmax.org

 

[Baldingman1998]

Wait. So does that mean chewing can improve gonial angle long term? And where should I chew? With what teeth?

 

[remy]

Wouldnt incisor chewing create CCW?

 

[hopemaxxer]

Just keep your teeth together in a relaxed manner, that will benefit you. Clenching will most likely fuck you up. Remember that bone requires only 1-2 grams of sustained force in order to change over time. This is how you'll change just by keeping your molars in contact:

View attachment 1187389

“bones only needs 1 to 2 grams of sustained force to change overtime”

just fucking lol @ this cope

if that’s the case then mewing is enough to cause a full CCW rotation in adults and we would’ve already seen numerous results by now.

For bone remodeling to happen you need constant high force for the sutures to move and be remodeled, I’m not saying that clenching is good but the options are pretty limited when it comes to remodeling bone.

Plus if all it took was to “keeping your teeth together” to have proper development then 95% of the population will have correctly developed faces.

Remember the #’s:

101.97 grams = 1 Newton.

Tongue at full force = ~50 Newtons.

 

[Soalian]

“bones only needs 1 to 2 grams of sustained force to change overtime”

just fucking lol @ this cope

if that’s the case then mewing is enough to cause a full CCW rotation in adults and we would’ve already seen numerous results by now.

For bone remodeling to happen you need constant high force for the sutures to move and be remodeled, I’m not saying that clenching is good but the options are pretty limited when it comes to remodeling bone.

Plus if all it took was to “keeping your teeth together” to have proper development then 95% of the population will have correctly developed faces.

Remember the #’s:

101.97 grams = 1 Newton.

Tongue at full force = ~50 Newtons.

Constant masseter pulling force on maxilla should be able to exert such forces, I think.

Anecdotally since I've had masseter hypertrophy to some degree, I experienced noticeable CCW rotation of posterior maxilla, and cw rotation of anterior maxilla.

Philtrum got a tad longer as a result, and midface seems to have gotten a bit longer also

Now I'm looking to atrophy the masseters, to remedy this issue.

 

[betamanlet]

if that’s the case then mewing is enough to cause a full CCW rotation in adults and we would’ve already seen numerous results by now.

Though 'full CCW rotation' is a mostly erroneous concept, we have seen many substantial results in adults

For bone remodeling to happen you need constant high force for the sutures to move and be remodeled

The forces needed are very gentle and high force can even be counter-productive due to its tendency to induce resorption.

Plus if all it took was to “keeping your teeth together” to have proper development then 95% of the population will have correctly developed faces.

You're grossly over-estimating the amount of population that routinely keeps their teeth together in support of good body posture.

Tongue at full force = ~50 Newtons.

The only potential way for the tongue to impact the maxilla in the sagittal plane is through relaxed forces, since pressing the tongue onto the palate will pull the palate and the tongue towards each other due to how the muscles of the tongue are intertwined with the maxilla -- it would be like trying to pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Realistically the tongue has no influence on maxillary positioning, hence those who focus solely on the tongue never see improvements in their profile.

 

[hopemaxxer]

Constant masseter pulling force on maxilla should be able to exert such forces, I think.

Anecdotally since I've had masseter hypertrophy to some degree, I experienced noticeable CCW rotation of posterior maxilla, and cw rotation of anterior maxilla.

Philtrum got a tad longer as a result, and midface seems to have gotten a bit longer also

Now I'm looking to atrophy the masseters, to remedy this issue.

The most valid and logical theory i’ve read until now is the mouth guard one mentioned by @Dad_Bod_God where you put pressure on the anterior teeth to achieve CCW rotation.

The mouthguard theory is logical because it evenly distributes pressure all over the teeth while focusing on the incisors for CCW rotation unlike chewing where it’s only focused on one area.

Long story short if you know what you’re doing you won’t fuck your face up.

 

[hopemaxxer]

Though 'full CCW rotation' is a mostly erroneous concept, we have seen many substantial results in adults

I’d love to see these results.

The forces needed are very gentle and high force can even be counter-productive due to its tendency to induce resorption.

bone resorption is a meme, bruxism patients are constantly grinding and clenching 24/7 for years and aside from muscle hypothrophy and worn out teeth (from grinding them obviously) their faces look normal.

clenching isn’t as bad as people make it to be, as long as you know what you’re doing you won’t fuck anything up.

You're grossly over-estimating the amount of population that routinely keeps their teeth together in support of good body posture.

Most people i see irl or the internet have a normal closed mouth posture and rarely jut, even the recessed ones, i know people who keep a perfect mouth posture and are still recessed as shit.

And body posture has nothing to do with face development, search for people with postural kyphosis/APT on google and you’ll find most of them have almost fully developed faces regardless of their horrific posture.

 

[PURE ARYAN GENETICS]

Dude listened to Brett Maverick's advice and began clenching his teeth 24/7 lol.

what? it's a legit before after?

 

[PURE ARYAN GENETICS]

On the other hand, this guy clenched his teeth 24/7.
View attachment 1187495

any more of this lmao

 

[betamanlet]

I’d love to see these results.

bruxism patients are constantly grinding and clenching 24/7 for years and aside from muscle hypothrophy and worn out teeth (from grinding them obviously) their faces look normal.

Those who suffer from bruxism regularly experience bone resorption. It's not necessarily something you can judge from the outside.

Most people i see irl or the internet have a normal closed mouth posture and rarely jut, even the recessed ones, i know people who keep a perfect mouth posture and are still recessed as shit.

There is a considerable distance from a closed mouth posture to having molars in contact. Here again, not something you can necessarily judge from the outside.

clenching isn’t as bad as people make it to be, as long as you know what you’re doing you won’t fuck anything up.

I'm inclined to agree.

And body posture has nothing to do with face development, search for people with postural kyphosis/APT on google and you’ll find most of them have almost fully developed faces regardless of their horrific posture.

You might be overly lenient in regard to what passes as an 'almost fully developed face'. How long someone has had poor posture and the specifics of their particular postural imbalances are also important factors in the equation. Not all imbalances are as detrimental to facial development as others. Lordotic individuals, for example are more likely to be slackjaws than kyphotic individuals.

 

[hopemaxxer]

Those who suffer from bruxism regularly experience bone resorption. It's not necessarily something you can judge from the outside.

Still my point stands, it takes years from severe bruxism to actually start seeing bone loss and not a few days of clenching.

On the clenching subject, there's good clenching and bad clenching.

For example you have this girl with bruxism that experienced forward growth from clenching:



Also this girl who had underwent TMJ treatment where her orthodontist installed an appliance to prevent her from grinding her teeth further more and that resulted in slight CCW rotation in as little as 2 months. (she mentiond that she had 0 weight change and has been weighing the same for +6 years):




And there's bad clenching just like this user who clenched backwards (tbh jfl) which caused his mandible to retrude and caused him TMJ issues. (you need an account the view the photos):

https://the-great-work.org/community/postid/36864/

Just like how you can have good results you can also have bad ones too.

As a general rule you should always clench in an upwards and forward direction for positive results, like i said before if you really know what you're doing you won't fuck your face up.


After all the "butterfly bite" is just a theory just like:
Mewing theory.
Incisors/molars chewing theory.
Temporalii/masseters hypotrophy theory.
Clenching theory.

And the clenching theory happens to be the most one with evidence unlike the others.

Bone remodeling is 100% legit and can happen even later in adulthood with the proper stimuli and in a relative short amount of time (less than a year).

The results are literally right in front of our eyes you just have to be constant to see any changes.

 

[PURE ARYAN GENETICS]

And body posture has nothing to do with face

nigga what

Still my point stands, it takes years from severe bruxism to actually start seeing bone loss and not a few days of clenching.

On the clenching subject, there's good clenching and bad clenching.

For example you have this girl with bruxism that experienced forward growth from clenching:



Also this girl who had underwent TMJ treatment where her orthodontist installed an appliance to prevent her from grinding her teeth further more and that resulted in slight CCW rotation in as little as 2 months. (she mentiond that she had 0 weight change and has been weighing the same for +6 years):




And there's bad clenching just like this user who clenched backwards (tbh jfl) which caused his mandible to retrude and caused him TMJ issues. (you need an account the view the photos):

https://the-great-work.org/community/postid/36864/

Just like how you can have good results you can also have bad ones too.

As a general rule you should always clench in an upwards and forward direction for positive results, like i said before if you really know what you're doing you won't fuck your face up.


After all the "butterfly bite" is just a theory just like:
Mewing theory.
Incisors/molars chewing theory.
Temporalii/masseters hypotrophy theory.
Clenching theory.

And the clenching theory happens to be the most one with evidence unlike the others.

Bone remodeling is 100% legit and can happen even later in adulthood with the proper stimuli and in a relative short amount of time (less than a year).

The results are literally right in front of our eyes you just have to be constant to see any changes.

that's @antiantifa

 

[ChristianChad]

Just keep your teeth together in a relaxed manner, that will benefit you. Clenching will most likely fuck you up. Remember that bone requires only 1-2 grams of sustained force in order to change over time. This is how you'll change just by keeping your molars in contact:

View attachment 1187389

I don see any change

 

[ChristianChad]

upwards and forward

That's the proper way to chew aswell with the masseters and not Temporali

 

[betamanlet]

I don see any change

The real change takes place in your heart.