MSE + FM = CCW??

[Sinjiyam]

I know there is constant discussion about this study: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26061987/ with regards to MSE and how simulation F created forward movement and CCW. Now we know that MSE sits in the posterior region of the maxilla and that usually the FM hooks are anchored to the bands that sit on the 6's and come forward to the canines. There is constant debate on the angle of pulling but it seems as though in order to best replicate simulation F, anteriorly placed bollard plates: https://www.chestnutdental.com/orthodontics/all-about-orthodontics/bollard-plates used in conjunction with a RPH or crane: http://www.thecranencrp.com/aboutthecrane.html angled at +30 could do the trick. It seems as though upward angle is ideal in all patients who are not brachycephallic though: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4740723/

 

[Mongrelcel]

anteriorly placed bollard plates

Arent they anchored into the alveolar bone tho?

 

[curryslayerordeath]

seems like the bollard plates would result in alveolar ridge movement instead of true compression of the maxilla?

 

[Sinjiyam]

Arent they anchored into the alveolar bone tho?

isn’t the alveolar bone connected to the maxilla though? As long as the movement is done by distraction and not remodeling between teeth like FAGGA it should move the maxilla. Unless the alveolar bone is not connected and moved independently

 

[Sinjiyam]

seems like the bollard plates would result in alveolar ridge movement instead of true compression of the maxilla?

how so? Isn’t the ridge connected to the maxilla? It seems the ridge movement would mostly occur in something like teeth borne protraction (which I am currently doing with MSE). As far as I’m concerned the alveolar process is connected to the maxilla and so as long as you are undergoing something like MSE you should get true maxillary advancement. That’s why even with tooth born the maxilla moves forward a little bit

 

[Mongrelcel]

how so? Isn’t the ridge connected to the maxilla? It seems the ridge movement would mostly occur in something like teeth borne protraction (which I am currently doing with MSE). As far as I’m concerned the alveolar process is connected to the maxilla and so as long as you are undergoing something like MSE you should get true maxillary advancement. That’s why even with tooth born the maxilla moves forward a little bit

Alveolar bone is many times softer than skeletal bone. I think that before you would achieve any kind of movement in the actual skeletal bone you would yank the teeth/hooks out of position

 

[Sinjiyam]

Alveolar bone is many times softer than skeletal bone. I think that before you would achieve any kind of movement in the actual skeletal bone you would yank the teeth/hooks out of position

mhmm possibly. It seems as though they use this successfully though but that’s a fair point. As long as they were not in contact with teeth they should stay in position though. I felt intraorally rn and it seems like the while front maxilla (until Nose area) holds the teeth so idk. Orthos use tads all the time to move teeth. Maybe palatally is the only way idk

 

[Mongrelcel]

mhmm possibly. It seems as though they use this successfully though but that’s a fair point. As long as they were not in contact with teeth they should stay in position though. I felt intraorally rn and it seems like the while front maxilla (until Nose area) holds the teeth so idk. Orthos use tads all the time to move teeth. Maybe palatally is the only way idk

I'm in the gym atm, once I get home I'll try to dig up some studies on the toughness of skeletal and alveolar bone

 

[Deleted member 5385]

If you think about this

Its probably not possible with MSE+FM. We don't know which angle would prevent downward growth caused by MSE and even further give upper maxilla compression and rotation along with alveolar ringe. I don't know but maxilla compression would be a really long process and no orthodontist would agree to do that unless you are friends with dr Ting jfl.
But still
@curryslayerordeath @Aeons

 

[Deleted member 5385]

isn’t the alveolar bone connected to the maxilla though? As long as the movement is done by distraction and not remodeling between teeth like FAGGA it should move the maxilla. Unless the alveolar bone is not connected and moved independently

Yes but alveoral ringe is really easy to remodel even in adults since bone remodelling is on complete different level than in midface bone. That why TADs work to compress alveoral ringe but won't work to help compress entire maxilla.

 

[Sinjiyam]

Yes but alveoral ringe is really easy to remodel even in adults since bone remodelling is on complete different level than in midface bone. That why TADs work to compress alveoral ringe but won't work to help compress entire maxilla.

Fm + mse would only work on kids then? This is depressing

 

[Deleted member 5385]

But don't worry @Sinjiyam - that study gave good foundation for further research and other scientists will be able find something similar. N2 was good base for trying to get ccw rotation.

Unfortunately if Jews allow incel look theories to come mainstream , normies would be able to understand better what cause that they look like they look and such things would have better research. Many things become mainstream over time. And more and more understand facial aesthetics.

 

[Deleted member 5385]

Fm + mse would only work on kids then? This is depressing

No MSE + FM work for every age , I am only afraid that remodelling maxilla to be vertically shorter and placed forward would be impossible for average adult
There was a study about Maxillary protraction in monkeys in 70' when they achieved forward and upward movement of maxilla( so monkeys midfaces were shorter) but it resulted in openbite and some other fails.

View attachment recessed-maxilla-before-after-2 (1).webp

 

[Sinjiyam]

No MSE + FM work for every age , I am only afraid that remodelling maxilla to be vertically shorter and placed forward would be impossible for average adult
There was a study about Maxillary protraction in monkeys in 70' when they achieved forward and upward movement of maxilla( so monkeys midfaces were shorter) but it resulted in openbite and some other fails.
View attachment 683913View attachment 683922

cant you just fix the fails surgically after ?

 

[curryslayerordeath]

how so? Isn’t the ridge connected to the maxilla? It seems the ridge movement would mostly occur in something like teeth borne protraction (which I am currently doing with MSE). As far as I’m concerned the alveolar process is connected to the maxilla and so as long as you are undergoing something like MSE you should get true maxillary advancement. That’s why even with tooth born the maxilla moves forward a little bit

Ah I was referring to the CCW part specifically, bc ppl usually mention that as a way to decrease mpa/face length. For that to happen, the whole maxilla would have to be compressed via remodelling or tip upwards, which doesn't seem possible w/o a spring type upward vector (which would also place tons of stress in other areas like that n2 simulation).

The ridge bone is softer than the whole maxilla structure which is why sometimes orthos displace it to correct malocclusion, honestly have no idea if leads to any true skeletal movement. U should prob watch to make sure ur not giving urself alveolar protrusion (not as big of a deal for whites tho tbh).

 

[JustBeCurry]

https://meridian.allenpress.com/ang...444/Comparison-of-two-protocols-for-maxillary unrelated but still related, apparently this thing allowed for more forward growth but idk how that would translate in terms of ccw rotation

 

[Deleted member 5385]

cant you just fix the fails surgically after ?

Yes, but I don't think any ortho would agree to give you openbite which is a side effects of vertically midfacial shortening. Again, if you are friends with some real good ortho and you are Rich ,you would have a chance to try it.

 

[Deleted member 5385]

Ah I was referring to the CCW part specifically, bc ppl usually mention that as a way to decrease mpa/face length. For that to happen, the whole maxilla would have to be compressed via remodelling or tip upwards, which doesn't seem possible w/o a spring type upward vector (which would also place tons of stress in other areas like that n2 simulation).

The ridge bone is softer than the whole maxilla structure which is why sometimes orthos displace it to correct malocclusion, honestly have no idea if leads to any true skeletal movement. U should prob watch to make sure ur not giving urself alveolar protrusion (not as big of a deal for whites tho tbh).

By the way why n2 caused so much strain on the skull?

 

[curryslayerordeath]

By the way why n2 caused so much strain on the skull?

no clue man, email one of the paper's authors if u want an answer. (most likely bc placing sm shear and compressive tension directly onto the maxilla transfers it throughout the entire skull)

 

[Deleted member 5385]

no clue man, email one of the paper's authors if u want an answer. (most likely bc placing sm shear and compressive tension directly onto the maxilla transfers it throughout the entire skull)

Too bad. I hope if they develop someday something what give similar effect (F) they will be able to get away with that issue.

 

[RichardwillImprove]

Honestly might just move the bitch myself with a knife at this point.

 

[SPFromNY914]

I know there is constant discussion about this study: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26061987/ with regards to MSE and how simulation F created forward movement and CCW. Now we know that MSE sits in the posterior region of the maxilla and that usually the FM hooks are anchored to the bands that sit on the 6's and come forward to the canines. There is constant debate on the angle of pulling but it seems as though in order to best replicate simulation F, anteriorly placed bollard plates: https://www.chestnutdental.com/orthodontics/all-about-orthodontics/bollard-plates used in conjunction with a RPH or crane: http://www.thecranencrp.com/aboutthecrane.html angled at +30 could do the trick. It seems as though upward angle is ideal in all patients who are not brachycephallic though: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4740723/

Bro I'm tjred of some people saying pulling upward is cope and others saying it's still a solid option. Like I need one definite facto awsner man

 

[Deleted member 8699]

I know there is constant discussion about this study: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26061987/ with regards to MSE and how simulation F created forward movement and CCW. Now we know that MSE sits in the posterior region of the maxilla and that usually the FM hooks are anchored to the bands that sit on the 6's and come forward to the canines. There is constant debate on the angle of pulling but it seems as though in order to best replicate simulation F, anteriorly placed bollard plates: https://www.chestnutdental.com/orthodontics/all-about-orthodontics/bollard-plates used in conjunction with a RPH or crane: http://www.thecranencrp.com/aboutthecrane.html angled at +30 could do the trick. It seems as though upward angle is ideal in all patients who are not brachycephallic though: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4740723/

read 0 words
but after the equal sign u should've written autism

 

[Sinjiyam]

Ah I was referring to the CCW part specifically, bc ppl usually mention that as a way to decrease mpa/face length. For that to happen, the whole maxilla would have to be compressed via remodelling or tip upwards, which doesn't seem possible w/o a spring type upward vector (which would also place tons of stress in other areas like that n2 simulation).

The ridge bone is softer than the whole maxilla structure which is why sometimes orthos displace it to correct malocclusion, honestly have no idea if leads to any true skeletal movement. U should prob watch to make sure ur not giving urself alveolar protrusion (not as big of a deal for whites tho tbh).

Say you do MSE + surgical release of sutures, then could the ccw+ forward movement with fm be achieved not by remodel but more distraction?

Bro I'm tjred of some people saying pulling upward is cope and others saying it's still a solid option. Like I need one definite facto awsner man

@sergiooms reccomends the bollard implants

Bro I'm tjred of some people saying pulling upward is cope and others saying it's still a solid option. Like I need one definite facto awsner man

It depends tbh no one fucking knows. But it definitely depends on the axis of pulling which again no one seems to know

 

[Sinjiyam]

Too bad. I hope if they develop someday something what give similar effect (F) they will be able to get away with that issue.

Our products: Bollards, Bollard with hook, Osteosynthesis screws, Auxilliaries

www.tita-link.com

I don’t think bollard plates anchor into the alveolar bone

 

[Asetric]

most people dont have enough space for bollard plates

between the tooth root and the zygo

 

[spark]

most people dont have enough space for bollard plates

between the tooth root and the zygo

Where did you find this information?

 

[RichardwillImprove]

If you think about this
View attachment 683854
Its probably not possible with MSE+FM. We don't know which angle would prevent downward growth caused by MSE and even further give upper maxilla compression and rotation along with alveolar ringe. I don't know but maxilla compression would be a really long process and no orthodontist would agree to do that unless you are friends with dr Ting jfl.
But still
@curryslayerordeath @Aeons

Mse only gives .5mm downward I thought also would someone with an already open bite mean they have a more compact midface man.

 

[Deleted member 5385]

Mse only gives .5mm downward I thought also would someone with an already open bite mean they have a more compact midface man.

Actually open bite is when maxilla went upwards but mandible didn't follow , and yes in theory nasal base is higher and more forward but you get malloclusdion and during fixing IT your nose would be lenghtened still to match mandible

 

[RichardwillImprove]

Actually open bite is when maxilla went upwards but mandible didn't follow , and yes in theory nasal base is higher and more forward but you get malloclusdion and during fixing IT your nose would be lenghtened still to match mandible

Do u mind if I bother u with my personal case I have mse in and am not sure what to do since I have an open bite man.

 

[Deleted member 5385]

Do u mind if I bother u with my personal case I have mse in and am not sure what to do since I have an open bite man.

Who is your ortho ?
Open bite is a tough case

 

[RichardwillImprove]

Who is your ortho ?
Open bite is a tough case

TIng want to keep my midface though man.

 

[Deleted member 5385]

TIng want to keep my midface though man.

He said he want to to cw rotation to "close" bite?
By the way he said ccw is not a concern but i don't know really what how to think about it

 

[RichardwillImprove]

He said he want to to cw rotation to "close" bite?
By the way he said ccw is not a concern but i don't know really what how to think about it

Yea and he literally told me himself that counter clockwise rotation is "easy to achieve" man.

 

[Deleted member 5385]

Yea and he literally told me himself that counter clockwise rotation is "easy to achieve" man.

If by ccw he means my avi I would move to LA right now at this moment jfl

 

[RichardwillImprove]

If by ccw he means my avi I would move to LA right now at this moment jfl

Want me to ask him at my visit man.

 

[RichardwillImprove]

If by ccw he means my avi I would move to LA right now at this moment jfl

U mind if I dm u xrays and photos and get ur advice on what I should do in terms of facemask man.

 

[spark]

If by ccw he means my avi I would move to LA right now at this moment jfl

I am pretty sure he means something else. He was already mentioning it in that Ronald video I wasn't really sure what he meant but I doubt he meant a proper CCW.

 

[spark]

Alveolar bone is many times softer than skeletal bone. I think that before you would achieve any kind of movement in the actual skeletal bone you would yank the teeth/hooks out of position

Yeah but the plates are pretty high up for the actual bone not to me involved.

 

[Mongrelcel]

Yeah but the plates are pretty high up for the actual bone not to me involved.
View attachment 840494

Yes, I was wrong - this is without a doubt best bone anchor for facepulling. HOWEVER, facepulling takes a lot of time, months maybe years - and you have to have this metal in your mouth for the entire time, my point is that an incision needs to be made to place it there and then that incision needs to stay open no?

I've marked where the incison would be, how would this work? Would you live with an open wound for a year?

 

[spark]

Yes, I was wrong - this is without a doubt best bone anchor for facepulling. HOWEVER, facepulling takes a lot of time, months maybe years - and you have to have this metal in your mouth for the entire time, my point is that an incision needs to be made to place it there and then that incision needs to stay open no?
View attachment 841115
I've marked where the incison would be, how would this work? Would you live with an open wound for a year?

I think there would be some healing process and it would heal around the metal which would be sticking out. It can't be fully open right? It would not be used otherwise.

 

[Mongrelcel]

I think there would be some healing process and it would heal around the metal which would be sticking out. It can't be fully open right? It would not be used otherwise.

What, you mean this is actually used? Can you name or point me to a procedure or a doctor that does this?

This could be big, RN the problem with facepulling (MSE or N2 based) is that you cant get a good angle from within the mouth. This could allow you to pull at +30 or even +50, basically whatever fucking angle you want. Probably wouldnt even get screw drift since its secured by 6 screws.

 

[spark]

What, you mean this is actually used? Can you name or point me to a procedure or a doctor that does this?

This could be big, RN the problem with facepulling (MSE or N2 based) is that you cant get a good angle from within the mouth. This could allow you to pull at +30 or even +50, basically whatever fucking angle you want. Probably wouldnt even get screw drift since its secured by 6 screws.

even @Sergio-OMS uses it afaik

 

[Mongrelcel]

even @Sergio-OMS uses it afaik

Massive lifefuel if Sergio uses it then. Im from europe, I could easily go to spain and get it installed.

 

[spark]

Massive lifefuel if Sergio uses it then. Im from europe, I could easily go to spain and get it installed.

Yeah now the question is how effective it is in adults (when used with MSE - without it's likely completely useless). There was a study comparing facemask and bollard plates done in 10-12 year olds if I remember correctly and it was concluded that the bollard plates did significantly more protraction and thus were more effective.

What I am more interested is whether it is possible to use on class IIs as well. I'd of course eventually get a mandibular surgery (IMDO) to match the upper.

 

[Mongrelcel]

of course eventually get a mandibular surgery (IMDO) to match the upper

literally my exact plan lmao

 

[noprogressno]

What, you mean this is actually used? Can you name or point me to a procedure or a doctor that does this?

This could be big, RN the problem with facepulling (MSE or N2 based) is that you cant get a good angle from within the mouth. This could allow you to pull at +30 or even +50, basically whatever fucking angle you want. Probably wouldnt even get screw drift since its secured by 6 screws.

I believe thats a good idea too but this thing gets unscrewed very easily.What if it gets unscrewed and what are you going to do fly back to spain to get it installed back? Plus many very knowledgeable orthodontists suggests that adults should use at least 1kg of force if they want to get any protraction,those plates cannot withstand that amount of force.I also think the reason why no one is seeing any effect from mse is because it causes dental movement instead of skeletal because it pulls from molars,not from the anchorage point.The arms thats used with mse is very mallable comparing to actual human bone whether its made from soft wire or hard wire.So basically it's a glamorized version of combining palatal expander with facemask,yes mse is bone borne but the protraction effect it gives is not bone borne...Someone should start a thread about this tho maybe this idea could go to somewhere useful

 

[Mongrelcel]

I also think the reason why no one is seeing any effect from mse is because it causes dental movement instead of skeletal because it pulls from molars,not from the anchorage point

what the fuck are you talking about

the main part of mse are the 4 screws in your palate, they also absorb the entire force

the bands on the size are for ALIGMENT. they dont even have to be there

 

[Mongrelcel]

Someone should start a thread about this tho maybe this idea could go to somewhere useful

there already were threads aimed at MSE and its suitability for facepulling - its almost impossible to facepull with mse. Too many problems with it

 

[noprogressno]

what the fuck are you talking about

the main part of mse are the 4 screws in your palate, they also absorb the entire force

the bands on the size are for ALIGMENT. they dont even have to be there

How can someone even pull without the arms,the pulling point is connected to molars