MSE Questions

[spark]

Link me to it if you can find it, because these are pretty terrible photos.

What do you mean?

 

[scalpel]

What do you mean?

Link me to whichever case report, publication, or website the case originates from. Is a tiny, low quality picture of an old lady what this community is pinning its hopes of MSE translating to appreciable outward facial change coming from?

 

[spark]

Link me to whichever case report, publication, or website the case originates from. Is a tiny, low quality picture of an old lady what this community is pinning its hopes of MSE translating to appreciable outward facial change coming from?

The source is the private doctor only facebook MSE group.

I don't really get what is your point. Are you insinuating this was not a real patient?

 

[scalpel]

The source is the private doctor only facebook MSE group.
View attachment 893952View attachment 893953

I don't really get what is your point. Are you insinuating this was not a real patient?

I don't really get your point, if this is the best example you can provide of MSE achieving notable facial structure change. It kind of seems to work against you.

But given that you can't even provide any of the clinical information about treatment or the patient, this is pretty useless as a discussion point regardless.

 

[spark]

I don't really get your point, if this is the best example you can provide of MSE achieving notable facial structure change. It kind of seems to work against you.

But given that you can't even provide any of the clinical information about treatment or the patient, this is pretty useless as a discussion point regardless.

You're moving the goalpost. I didn't come here into the thread trying to convince you of anything. You said you have never seen clinical photos of anyone with visible facial changes who was not a child. Well now you have.

 

[scalpel]

You're moving the goalpost. I didn't come here into the thread trying to convince you of anything. You said you have never seen clinical photos of anyone with visible facial changes who was not a child. Well now you have.

Yes, using MSE alone. I have no idea what other forms of treatment this individual may have had. Beyond that, the conditions and quality of the photo are pretty terrible. If this is the most substantive proof you can provide of MSE resulting in visible facial change then you've failed miserably.

When a technique actually works, clinical photos demonstrating its effectiveness can be found with abundance. There's a reason you're struggling here.

 

[MSEFM]

if this is the best example you can provide of MSE achieving notable facial structure change. It kind of seems to work against you.

This coming from the guy who was asked to show even one publication that used the acronym MSE to mean maxillary expansion generally and he linked to an article specifically referring to the Won Moon MSE appliance.

 

[spark]

Yes, using MSE alone. I have no idea what other forms of treatment this individual may have had. Beyond that, the conditions and quality of the photo are pretty terrible. If this is the most substantive proof you can provide of MSE resulting in visible facial change then you've failed miserably.

When a technique actually works, clinical photos demonstrating its effectiveness can be found with abundance. There's a reason you're struggling here.

I have no idea what you are talking about. The photo above clearly shows it was an MSE treatment and not something else. You can even see the damn MSE in her mouth not to mention it was posted by her ortho. You are trying to sound way smarter than you are. I went to see your first post...

MSE is that it will not actually give you any skeletal expansion. The suture is too interdigitated at your age. You will just be pushing your teeth outhward.

...and it's pretty obvious I am discussing here with an absolute ignoramus who has absolutely no idea what he is talking about. I am not even sure whether there is a single expert in the whole world who agrees with that statement. You're way off line dude.

 

[scalpel]

This coming from the guy who was asked to show even one publication that used the acronym MSE to mean maxillary expansion generally and he linked to an article specifically referring to the Won Moon MSE appliance.

Already linked to a publication using the same terminology. You threw a tantrum and then went from "I'm walking away from this thread" to trying to jump back in again to...restart the semantic debate. Well done.

I have no idea what you are talking about. The photo above clearly shows it was an MSE treatment and not something else. You can even see the damn MSE in her mouth not to mention it was posted by her ortho. You are trying to sound way smarter than you are. I went to see your first post...

The photo shows she had MSE treatment, it tells me absolutely nothing else about what other treatments she may have had done. Nobody is questioning if she had an MSE put in or not. This is not how cases are evaluated by professionals.

MSE is that it will not actually give you any skeletal expansion. The suture is too interdigitated at your age. You will just be pushing your teeth outhward.

...and it's pretty obvious I am discussing here with an absolute ignoramus who has absolutely no idea what he is talking about. I am not even sure whether there is a single expert in the whole world who agrees with that statement. You're way off line dude.

Much like the armchair expert above you, you regressed 4 pages back into a semantic debate that was already finished long ago.

Lot of coping happening in this thread.

 

[spark]

The photo shows she had MSE treatment, it tells me absolutely nothing else about what other treatments she may have had done. Nobody is questioning if she had an MSE put in or not. This is not how cases are evaluated by professionals.

Much like the armchair expert above you, you regressed 4 pages back into a semantic debate that was already finished long ago.

Yeah because you're giving off very odd vibes. I had to check what exactly is your position and what are you trying to accomplish here. I thought you were genuinely interested in a before/after example so I posted it here and expected for our discussion to be over. You came back trying to attack me for whatever reason so I had to go back and read your posts.

Now that I have read more of your drivel I see you're some weird autistic sounding freak who is trying to pass off as a doctor.

If this were part of a live action roleplay your therapist prescribed to you after your last suicide attempt as a way to deal with your non-existent social skills I can tell you that you've failed miserably. Ain't nobody buying your shit in here. Even the way you write your posts is laughable.

 

[scalpel]

Yeah because you're giving off very odd vibes. I had to check what exactly is your position and what are you trying to accomplish here. I thought you were genuinely interested in a before/after example so I posted it here and expected for our discussion to be over. You came back trying to attack me for whatever reason so I had to go back and read your posts.

I am very interested in before/after examples. If that is the best/only example you can provide than you're grasping at straws that this method of treatment actually produces appreciable facial change.

Now that I have read more of your drivel I see you're some weird autistic sounding freak who is trying to pass as a doctor.

Trust me, one of us definitely sounds autistic here.

If this were part of a live action roleplay...

This is exactly how autists talk. Keep coping.

 

[spark]

I am very interested in before/after examples. If that is the best/only example you can provide than you're grasping at straws that this method of treatment actually produces appreciable facial change. Trust me, one of us definitely sounds autistic here. This is exactly how autists talk. Keep coping.

You have absolutely no idea how freakish you sound.

Get help. I don't even want to insult you that's how bad I feel for you.

 

[scalpel]

You have absolutely no idea how freakish you sound.

Get help. I don't even want to insult you that's how bad I feel for you.

These are really intelligent rebuttals that do a great job of establishing the effectiveness of MSE in producing facial change. Thank you for these quality contributions to the thread.

 

[MSEFM]

Already linked to a publication using the same terminology. You threw a tantrum and then went from "I'm walking away from this thread" to trying to jump back in again to...restart the semantic debate. Well done.

There was nothing left to argue about because the paper you posted disproved your own position. It's not simply a semantic debate; your ignorance discredits your supposed expertise.

I am very interested in before/after examples. If that is the best/only example you can provide than you're grasping at straws that this method of treatment actually produces appreciable facial change.

If you're really interested in seeing cases, go join the MSE facebook group @spark mentioned. They will let you in if you're a real orthodontist, but they will ban you if you talk to them the way you talk to us.

 

[scalpel]

There was nothing left to argue about because the paper you posted disproved your own position. It's not simply a semantic debate; your ignorance discredits your supposed expertise.

There was nothing left to argue about because I provided an example of exactly what you claimed didn't exist. You then ran away from the discussion before deciding to return now to embarrass yourself further.

If you're really interested in seeing cases, go join the MSE facebook group @spark mentioned. They will let you in if you're a real orthodontist, but they will ban you if you talk to them the way you talk to us.

If they let you guys in, you clearly don't need to be a real orthodontist, or even a real adult.

 

[scalpel]

Is it too late to see any mediocre results by age 18?

With MARPE? You could maybe split the suture, but again I have to emphasize how little maxillary expansion is going to translate to outward facial change.

 

[scalpel]

I mainly want it so I can improve breathing. I would like physical changes but even if I see little or none I am content. As long as it will improve quality of oxygen I think the long term benefits will be worth it in 5 years time. I believe it will correct the problems that come with a narrow airway so I can better do nasal breathing naturally.

If you can split the airway then you could see improved breathing. I generally think jaw surgery is more reliable for airway improvement, but it's not indicated for every patient.

 

[scalpel]

Can't diagnose it from photos like these. Also, one of the ways we determine if you have a narrow palate is by examining the relationship with the lower teeth, which also aren't visible here.

 

[highT]

I don't really get your point, if this is the best example you can provide of MSE achieving notable facial structure change. It kind of seems to work against you.

But given that you can't even provide any of the clinical information about treatment or the patient, this is pretty useless as a discussion point regardless.

LOL you keep moving the goalpost. You first say there’s no evidence of aesthetic changes, and now this photo isn’t valid because we don’t have the full case report in writing?

How is this not a good example of aesthetic changes from MSE? Are you blind? The difference between the photos is night & day. Also, this photo was shared in a private facebook group for orthodontists only (hmmm... maybe you’d know about this if you were actually an orthodontist.)

I’m not an orthodontist nor do I claim to be. I, however, have consulted with an actual orthodontist who provides MSE and one of the first things I was told is that it expands the midfacial bone structure and that the majority of their patients are adults. There are before & after photos on the website of this orthodontist who I consulted with. I have also seen numerous photos shared online in various forums such as the great work, various related subsections of reddit, etc. There is no shortage of evidence on the internet. I imagine you will claim that all these people are writing fake blogs and photoshopping fake photos of themselves with expanders in their mouths.

Hey Mr. orthodontist, can we see your website? Let’s see your credentials.

 

[scalpel]

In the interest of trying to figure out where you guys got the idea that MARPE would actually change your faces, I went down the rabbit hole of the guy who comically over-expanded himself to figure out where this delusion came from. At first I was under the impression an orthodontist had sold you guys on this idea, and looked at some of his interviews with practitioners that use expansion pretty frequently. What I learned is that even the providers you guys are obsessed with - Dr. Ting included - don't promote use of a MARPE for its benefits to facial aesthetics.

1. From this interview with Dr. Bockow, when asked about the use of a MARPE for its aesthetic benefits, she states: "it's not as noticeable as you think...in either direction."

Immediately after this segment of the interview he says that his viewers (not him - he emphasizes that) claim that his cheekbones expanded, and then goes on to discuss how his expansion was asymmetric. So he concedes even if expansion translates to outward facial change, you would risk this change to your cheekbones being asymmetrical. Bockow then mentions that research by Moon's residents (again, Moon's work, so take it with a heavy grain of salt) found that almost all expansion was asymmetrical.

2. From this interview with Dr. Ting, he says "I probably have...10-20% of adults saying the midface got more enhanced". Stunning numbers of success there. And keep in mind Ting is referring to patients with actual midface deficiency that see the most benefit from expansion, not guys online desperate to get wider cheekbones.

3. As I'm sure you're all familiar with by now because it definitely generated some tears from this interview with Dr. Ting and Dr. Vaughan (an oral maxillofacial surgeon), when asked about MARPE for aesthetic benefits Vaughan states: "the zygomaticomaxillary buttress is the resistance to maxillary expansion. The cheekbones also have zygomaticofrontal junction and the zygomaticotemporal junction which goes in front of the ear. These are very - any surgeon that has done any kind of cheekbone surgery will tell you, these are very strong, dense areas of bone that are hard to break. So just releasing here (referring to the zygomaticomaxillary buttress) is not going to take away the resistance of the zygomaticofrontal and zygomaticotemporal junctions of the cheekbone." Ting seems to then contradict himself here by saying the "vast majority" of his adult patients say their cheekbones got enhanced by concedes it could just be the downward and forward movement of the maxilla. Ting then says (in reference to the cheekbones): "maybe slightly widening...maybe."

It really isn't looking good for you guys when even the experts you try to cite are this non-committal about facial change.

LOL you keep moving the goalpost. You first say there’s no evidence of aesthetic changes, and now this photo isn’t valid because we don’t have the full case report in writing?

How is this not a good example of aesthetic changes from MSE? Are you blind? The difference between the photos is night & day.

I'm simply asking for the full treatment details rather than trying to judge what I'm looking at from a small picture of a screen of a low quality photo. I understand you are desperate for MARPE treatment resulting in facial change to be a thing because you have emotionally invested in it, but that really doesn't change the facts about its lack of efficacy towards facial aesthetics.

Also, this photo was shared in a private facebook group for orthodontists only (hmmm... maybe you’d know about this if you were actually an orthodontist.)

The fact that you guys have access to this photo just confirms that it's not actually a group for orthodontists only. It is telling that you are trying to use a (very poor quality) before/after photo to champion your cause but have zero actual information on the patient or the case.

I’m not an orthodontist nor do I claim to be. I, however, have consulted with an actual orthodontist who provides MSE and one of the first things I was told is that it expands the midfacial bone structure and that the majority of their patients are adults. There are before & after photos on the website of this orthodontist who I consulted with. I have also seen numerous photos shared online in various forums such as the great work, various related subsections of reddit, etc. There is no shortage of evidence on the internet. I imagine you will claim that all these people are writing fake blogs and photoshopping fake photos of themselves with expanders in their mouths.

"No shortage of evidence" that MARPE can produce facial change, yet the most evidence you could produce was...that? Pretty sad.

Hey Mr. orthodontist, can we see your website? Let’s see your credentials.

Not interested in doxxing myself on a website with people this young and stupid.

As always: keep coping.

 

[MSEFM]

In the interest of trying to figure out where you guys got the idea that MARPE would actually change your faces, I went down the rabbit hole of the guy who comically over-expanded himself to figure out where this delusion came from. At first I was under the impression an orthodontist had sold you guys on this idea, and looked at some of his interviews with practitioners that use expansion pretty frequently. What I learned is that even the providers you guys are obsessed with - Dr. Ting included - don't promote use of a MARPE for its benefits to facial aesthetics.

1. From this interview with Dr. Bockow, when asked about the use of a MARPE for its aesthetic benefits, she states: "it's not as noticeable as you think...in either direction."

Immediately after this segment of the interview he says that his viewers (not him - he emphasizes that) claim that his cheekbones expanded, and then goes on to discuss how his expansion was asymmetric. So he concedes even if expansion translates to outward facial change, you would risk this change to your cheekbones being asymmetrical. Bockow then mentions that research by Moon's residents (again, Moon's work, so take it with a heavy grain of salt) found that almost all expansion was asymmetrical.

2. From this interview with Dr. Ting, he says "I probably have...10-20% of adults saying the midface got more enhanced". Stunning numbers of success there. And keep in mind Ting is referring to patients with actual midface deficiency that see the most benefit from expansion, not guys online desperate to get wider cheekbones.

3. As I'm sure you're all familiar with by now because it definitely generated some tears from this interview with Dr. Ting and Dr. Vaughan (an oral maxillofacial surgeon), when asked about MARPE for aesthetic benefits Vaughan states: "the zygomaticomaxillary buttress is the resistance to maxillary expansion. The cheekbones also have zygomaticofrontal junction and the zygomaticotemporal junction which goes in front of the ear. These are very - any surgeon that has done any kind of cheekbone surgery will tell you, these are very strong, dense areas of bone that are hard to break. So just releasing here (referring to the zygomaticomaxillary buttress) is not going to take away the resistance of the zygomaticofrontal and zygomaticotemporal junctions of the cheekbone." Ting seems to then contradict himself here by saying the "vast majority" of his adult patients say their cheekbones got enhanced by concedes it could just be the downward and forward movement of the maxilla. Ting then says (in reference to the cheekbones): "maybe slightly widening...maybe."

It really isn't looking good for you guys when even the experts you try to cite are this non-committal about facial change.




I'm simply asking for the full treatment details rather than trying to judge what I'm looking at from a small picture of a screen of a low quality photo. I understand you are desperate for MARPE treatment resulting in facial change to be a thing because you have emotionally invested in it, but that really doesn't change the facts about its lack of efficacy towards facial aesthetics.



The fact that you guys have access to this photo just confirms that it's not actually a group for orthodontists only. It is telling that you are trying to use a (very poor quality) before/after photo to champion your cause but have zero actual information on the patient or the case.



"No shortage of evidence" that MARPE can produce facial change, yet the most evidence you could produce was...that? Pretty sad.



Not interested in doxxing myself on a website with people this young and stupid.

As always: keep coping.

You're not telling us anything that isn't already widely known. MSE isn't going to turn you into a model. In successful cases (not guaranteed especially for older men), it might have subtle aesthetic benefits, mostly a wider smile, but also potentially some slight increase in midface volume. There's a significant risk of exacerbating existing asymmetries. It can improve airway and sleep issues and make it easier to correctly posture your tongue and head/neck.

 

[highT]

Not interested in doxxing myself on a website with people this young and stupid.

As always: keep coping.

LMAO you realize there are actual, professional surgeons here, who have fully identified themselves? You’re in no position to do so, obviously, because you’ve conducted yourself in such a pathetic and shameful manner. “Keep coping” really? You expect any of us to believe a professional orthodontist speaks that way?

Also, how the fuck are you typing these high-effort, essay-style posts during all hours of the day? Currently it is the middle of the morning on a Tuesday? Pretty sure you’d be busy working in your practice right now if you were an orthodontist JFL

Whether or not you think a slight expansion of the cheekbones is significant, is irrelevant. This is a forum for people dissatisfied with their looks, often due to poor development resulting in narrow/recessed facial bones. Many people here can afford to expand significantly (10mm or so) which could easily result in an aesthetic change. Something you don’t seem to understand is that even a SLIGHT improvement is considered a HUGE win for many of the people here. Ironically, you spent a great deal of time and effort verbally abusing the teenagers who post here, when that age group specifically is the most likely to be able to achieve a significant, noticeable remodeling of the bone structure because their bones are still relatively malleable. The one thing I will agree with is that it is unlikely that older (25+) males will achieve such results. But even in that a demographic there are successful examples, it is simply less likely.

 

[scalpel]

You're not telling us anything that isn't already widely known. MSE isn't going to turn you into a model. In successful cases (not guaranteed especially for older men), it might have subtle aesthetic benefits, mostly a wider smile, but also potentially some slight increase in midface volume. There's a significant risk of exacerbating existing asymmetries. It can improve airway and sleep issues and make it easier to correctly posture your tongue and head/neck.

As long as you're willing to acknowledge there will be little to no benefit to facial aesthetics then we're on the same page here. But this is at complete conflict with the goals of the majority of users here speculating about getting MSE.

LMAO you realize there are actual, professional surgeons here, who have fully identified themselves? You’re in no position to do so, obviously, because you’ve conducted yourself in such a pathetic and shameful manner. “Keep coping” really? You expect any of us to believe a professional orthodontist speaks that way?

You mean like that one active oral surgeon guy? Just because he's desperate for more potential patients doesn't mean I am.

Yes, what you're doing is coping. Don't communicate like an angry 12 year old and then demand professionalism. I'm not your orthodontist, I don't owe you any professionalism.

Also, how the fuck are you typing these high-effort, essay-style posts during all hours of the day? Currently it is the middle of the morning on a Tuesday? Pretty sure you’d be busy working in your practice right now if you were an orthodontist JFL

Sorry, I'll be sure to lower the quality of my posts to appease you. You're also apparently very unfamiliar with the work hours of orthodontists...and the concept of holidays. A side effect of being an angry teenager, I'd imagine.

View attachment 896616View attachment 896617View attachment 896618

"I moved my hair around, look at these dramatic results!" The desperation is real.

Whether or not you think a slight expansion of the cheekbones is significant, is irrelevant. This is a forum for people dissatisfied with their looks, often due to poor development resulting in narrow/recessed facial bones. Many people here can afford to expand significantly (10mm or so) which could easily result in an aesthetic change. Something you don’t seem to understand is that even a SLIGHT improvement is considered a HUGE win for many of the people here. Ironically, you spent a great deal of time and effort verbally abusing the teenagers who post here, when that age group specifically is the most likely to be able to achieve a significant, noticeable remodeling of the bone structure because their bones are still relatively malleable. The one thing I will agree with is that it is unlikely that older (25+) males will achieve such results. But even in that a demographic there are successful examples, it is simply less likely.

Whether or not there is cheekbone expansion is relevant. It's literally the entire reason 99% of users here want to get MSE. You aren't qualified to determine if people here could afford expansion, or how much they could use. You're a clueless teenager.

Teenagers are not the most likely to achieve significant, noticeable remodeling of bone structure. Children are.

Stop while you're behind.

 

[highT]

As long as you're willing to acknowledge there will be little to no benefit to facial aesthetics then we're on the same page here. But this is at complete conflict with the goals of the majority of users here speculating about getting MSE.



You mean like that one active oral surgeon guy? Just because he's desperate for more potential patients doesn't mean I am.

Yes, what you're doing is coping. Don't communicate like an angry 12 year old and then demand professionalism. I'm not your orthodontist, I don't owe you any professionalism.




Sorry, I'll be sure to lower the quality of my posts to appease you. You're also apparently very unfamiliar with the work hours of orthodontists...and the concept of holidays. A side effect of being an angry teenager, I'd imagine.



"I moved my hair around, look at these dramatic results!" The desperation is real.



Whether or not there is cheekbone expansion is relevant. It's literally the entire reason 99% of users here want to get MSE. You aren't qualified to determine if people here could afford expansion, or how much they could use. You're a clueless teenager.

Teenagers are not the most likely to achieve significant, noticeable remodeling of bone structure. Children are.

Stop while you're behind.

I’m a clueless teenager?... Lmao okay then. In reality I’m a degree-holding professional, working in the tech industry and I am in my late 20s. And interestingly, my family orthodontist is actually working today. I’m also working today (remotely.) Glad you have so much free time to argue online though. Also amused by your false claim about “99% of users here wanting MSE for cheekbones.” If you search the term “breathing” you’ll see a lot of discussions on here about expansion treatment being used to correct breathing issues. I mean sure people here are concerned with looks, but your 99% number is clearly baseless, pulled out of your ass, and an example of why no one here can take you seriously. Also LMAO at you discrediting those changes and chalking it up to “moving her hair around.” Everyone in the 70+ comments on that thread sees the changes. Yet you don’t. You’ve gotta have vision problems or something. Multiple examples provided for you here and you’re just in denial about every one of them hahahahhaa. Can’t remember if this has been mentioned but there’s video evidence of Dr Ting and Dr Vaughn describing the cheekbone expansion and Dr Vaughn openly acknowledges that it happens but that he personally doesn’t think it is a desirable aesthetic change. He says something to the effect of “it can make the face rounder and I don’t think people desire that change.” Again, these are real doctors on video, whereas you’re too scared to present yourself as anything other than anonymous

 

[scalpel]

I’m a clueless teenager?... Lmao okay then. In reality I’m a degree-holding professional, working in the tech industry and I am in my late 20s. And interestingly, my family orthodontist is actually working today. I’m also working today (remotely.) Glad you have so much free time to argue online though. Also amused by your false claim about “99% of users here wanting MSE for cheekbones.” If you search the term “breathing” you’ll see a lot of discussions on here about expansion treatment being used to correct breathing issues. Also LMAO at you discrediting those changes and chalking it up to “moving her hair around.” Everyone in the 70+ comments on that thread sees the changes. Yet you don’t. You’ve gotta have vision problems or something. Multiple examples provided for you here and you’re just in denial about every one of them hahahahhaa. Can’t remember if this has been mentioned but there’s video evidence of Dr Ting and Dr Vaughn describing the cheekbone expansion and Dr Vaughn openly acknowledges that it happens but that he personally doesn’t think it is a desirable aesthetic change. Again, these are real doctors on video, whereas you’re too scared to present yourself as anything other than anonymous

If you're in your late 20s and still communicate like a teenager, you should probably reflect on how you convey yourself to others. I don't really care if you and your family orthodontist are working today. This is - in your own words - a looks based community. Don't try to pretend like the main concern of the users are their breathing and that's why they turned to Looksmax for MSE advice. Other commenters did point out it's just her hair, but I also don't take anyone that posts in /r/orthotropics seriously and neither should you (though again I'm not surprised you are part of other cope-based, teenager communities). The nice thing about orthodontics is that it's a pretty precise field when it comes to skeletal changes and cephalometric superimposition can (and often is) used to determine skeletal vs dental changes post-treatment. We're able to use this to assess treatment effects accurately, rather than low quality pictures of screens or selfies taken under uncontrolled conditions.

I literally linked to the video you're describing above...Vaughan says that such a change would be undesirable and that it doesn't happen from MSE use, and explains why. I suggest you actually listen to what he has to say rather than interpreting it incorrectly.

 

[highT]

If you're in your late 20s and still communicate like a teenager, you should probably reflect on how you convey yourself to others. I don't really care if you and your family orthodontist are working today. This is - in your own words - a looks based community. Don't try to pretend like the main concern of the users are their breathing and that's why they turned to Looksmax for MSE advice. Other commenters did point out it's just her hair, but I also don't take anyone that posts in /r/orthotropics seriously and neither should you (though again I'm not surprised you are part of other cope-based, teenager communities). The nice thing about orthodontics is that it's a pretty precise field when it comes to skeletal changes and cephalometric superimposition can (and often is) used to determine skeletal vs dental changes post-treatment. We're able to use this to assess treatment effects accurately, rather than low quality pictures of screens or selfies taken under uncontrolled conditions.

I literally linked to the video you're describing above...Vaughan says that such a change would be undesirable and that it doesn't happen from MSE use, and explains why. I suggest you actually listen to what he has to say rather than interpreting it incorrectly.

Yes, that is a good point that there are much more accurate ways to measure these changes other than photos taken in a non-controlled setting. I am curious how many patients you’ve treated with MSE (specifically ones using the TADs.) Dr Ting says that cheekbone expansion happens and he shares an anecdote recalling a case of this. I still don’t think it makes any sense for you to verbally abuse young / teenage posters here. It’s crazy to me that you’d do this and then criticize the way that I communicate. Yes I’ve been aggressive but so have you. It would be one thing to address old men in their 30s about their delusions regarding this topic, but teenagers can have successful expansion treatment without even needing surgical assistance, don’t you agree with that? Plus there was a user in here claiming to be a male in his late 30s who is achieving a successful expansion with corticopuncture, describing a diastema and subtlety improved midfacial appearance.

Here’s a quote from your very first post in this thread: “Let this be clear: the kids on here pursuing MSE in the hope of facial improvement are completely wasting their time”

And ^this^ is why it has been difficult to take you seriously. Kids, young teenagers, are the MOST LIKELY to achieve changes in their facial appearance and you’ve actually admitted this since then, effectively contradicting yourself.

 

[Junaid1800]

If you're in your late 20s and still communicate like a teenager, you should probably reflect on how you convey yourself to others. I don't really care if you and your family orthodontist are working today. This is - in your own words - a looks based community. Don't try to pretend like the main concern of the users are their breathing and that's why they turned to Looksmax for MSE advice. Other commenters did point out it's just her hair, but I also don't take anyone that posts in /r/orthotropics seriously and neither should you (though again I'm not surprised you are part of other cope-based, teenager communities). The nice thing about orthodontics is that it's a pretty precise field when it comes to skeletal changes and cephalometric superimposition can (and often is) used to determine skeletal vs dental changes post-treatment. We're able to use this to assess treatment effects accurately, rather than low quality pictures of screens or selfies taken under uncontrolled conditions.

I literally linked to the video you're describing above...Vaughan says that such a change would be undesirable and that it doesn't happen from MSE use, and explains why. I suggest you actually listen to what he has to say rather than interpreting it incorrectly.

I got this off a Palatal Expansion with Skeletal Anchorage presentation off of Reddit

You can clearly tell the changes in the cheekbone and the wider nose due to increase in nasal volume . The presentation has countless before and after pictures . The widening of the palate will improve the whole body . Weston a price touches on this https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/dentistry/from-attention-deficit-to-sleep-apnea/ . Attractiveness is health . Mse improve airway which improves health . Health is attractiveness. You seem to be coping, maybe you too old but majority of this forum is 15-24 . There’s a possibility for the suture to split without Marpe.

 

[Deleted member 6111]

Imagine going through training, performing MSE on actual patients, reviewing the literature...and then having a teenager tell you to "Google MSE results". This place is unbelievable.

theres no way youve performed MSE. hardly any orthos perform MSE anyway, and if youre opposed to it i dont see why you would offer it

theres no evidence youre an ortho at all so nobody is going to treat you as one

youre obviously not an ortho because youre speaking out of your arse and had to backtrack on ead

 

[scalpel]

I got this off a Palatal Expansion with Skeletal Anchorage presentation off of Reddit
View attachment 896896

Man, this is fucking hilarious for a few reasons:

1. The patient you're showing the images above had massive expansion. Most of you aren't getting that.
2. The patient you've linked above is still growing. There are skeletal changes here that are also attributable to natural growth. And we know this is true (and that you probably haven't watched the entire video and instead cherry picked convenient parts of it because...)
3. ...the patient's twin sister that didn't receive expansion has her scan shown and her cheekbone width is closer to her sister's post expansion than pre expansion...despite having no expansion done yet.
4. Again, uncontrolled before/after photos. The after is much closer up than the before. Definitely a change to the nose that was a treatment effect though.

You can clearly tell the changes in the cheekbone and the wider nose due to increase in nasal volume . The presentation has countless before and after pictures . The widening of the palate will improve the whole body . Weston a price touches on this https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/dentistry/from-attention-deficit-to-sleep-apnea/ . Attractiveness is health . Mse improve airway which improves health . Health is attractiveness. You seem to be coping, maybe you too old but majority of this forum is 15-24 . There’s a possibility for the suture to split without Marpe.

This is one of the funniest copes I think I've ever seen on this website. Like it reeks of desperation.

theres no way youve performed MSE. hardly any orthos perform MSE anyway, and if youre opposed to it i dont see why you would offer it

theres no evidence youre an ortho at all so nobody is going to treat you as one

youre obviously not an ortho because youre speaking out of your arse and had to backtrack on ead

Plenty of orthos perform MSE (especially more recently trained ones). I'm not opposed to it. It's effective in specific situations and for specific purposes. It's completely ineffective at changing facial aesthetics, which you really shouldn't be seeing an orthodontist for in the first place unless you're incredibly young (i.e. an actual child).

You have no idea what percentage of orthos perform certain procedures or not. Again, teenagers need to sit out of this conversation.

 

[highT]

Hey @scalpel why did you ignore my last post? You’re backed into a corner, ignoring the blatant instances of your own self-contradictions. You have zero credibility and no one here is buying into your LARPing. Can’t believe I’ve wasted time arguing with your schizophrenic, autistic, nonsensical ass

 

[scalpel]

Hey @scalpel why did you ignore my last post? Backed into a corner, little man. You have zero credibility and no one here is buying into your LARPing. Looks like I’m done wasting my time with your schizophrenic, autistic, nonsensical ramblings

Don't cry, I just missed your post. I understand autism makes that a very difficult thing for you.

I am curious how many patients you’ve treated with MSE (specifically ones using the TADs.)

A lot. It's a more reliable way for me to split the suture and achieve skeletal expansion instead of chancing it with patients in their mid-teens.

Dr Ting says that cheekbone expansion happens and he shares an anecdote recalling a case of this.

I linked to Dr. Ting saying "maybe slight width...maybe" when it came to cheekbone expansion in adult patients. And you know...Dr. Vaughan saying it doesn't happen. Which I guess you ignored because it was inconvenient for your argument or whatever.

I still don’t think it makes any sense for you to verbally abuse young / teenage posters here. It’s crazy to me that you’d do this and then criticize the way that I communicate. Yes I’ve been aggressive but so have you. It would be one thing to address old men in their 30s about their delusions regarding this topic, but teenagers can have successful expansion treatment without even needing surgical assistance, don’t you agree with that? Plus there was a user in here claiming to be a male in his late 30s who is achieving a successful expansion with corticopuncture, describing a diastema and subtlety improved midfacial appearance.

1. Less tears, more on-topic content.
2. Teenagers is a very broad range.
3. "Successful expansion treatment" is a broad and vague term. For orthodontic purposes? Absolutely. For facial aesthetic purposes? Absolutely not.
4. Miss me with any argument that begins with "A user in here claiming...".

Here’s a quote from your very first post in this thread: “Let this be clear: the kids on here pursuing MSE in the hope of facial improvement are completely wasting their time”

And ^this^ is why it has been difficult to take you seriously. Kids, young teenagers, are the MOST LIKELY to achieve changes in their facial appearance and you’ve actually admitted this since then, effectively contradicting yourself.

I understand autism frequently presents as a language barrier that makes context in conversation difficult to interpret so I'll happily clarify for you. There are no literal kids on this forum (at least I hope not). It's mostly late teens and early 20's users. These are the kids I'm referring to - not because they are literally young children, but because they are mentally young. If you'd like to engage in another autistic debate on semantics though, feel free to waste your time.

Keep that cope coming buddy!

 

[highT]

@scalpel Did you ever notice how literally nobody in this entire thread takes you seriously, including an actual, verified professional maxiofacial surgeon? Feel free to continue embarrassing yourself, arguing with multiple grown adults who have actually had MSE themselves, and provided countless examples to prove you wrong. OR you could simply provide a modicum of proof to support your claim that you’re an actual professional. Go ahead link your professional ortho website, which I’m sure you have! Otherwise keep embarrassing yourself

 

[scalpel]

@scalpel Did you ever notice how literally nobody in this entire thread takes you seriously, including an actual, verified professional maxiofacial surgeon? Feel free to continue embarrassing yourself, arguing with multiple grown adults who have actually had MSE themselves, and provided countless examples to prove you wrong. OR you could simply provide a modicum of proof to support your claim that you’re an actual professional. Go ahead link your professional ortho website, which I’m sure you have! Otherwise keep embarrassing yourself

When all else fails, resort to ad hominem I guess. Having an MSE does not make you an expert on MSE's. You can keep crying about it here, but until you can start providing actual evidence and well supported arguments, you've only wasting your time. Better luck throwing a tantrum elsewhere.

 

[highT]

When all else fails, resort to ad hominem I guess. Having an MSE does not make you an expert on MSE's. You can keep crying about it here, but until you can start providing actual evidence and well supported arguments, you've only wasting your time. Better luck throwing a tantrum elsewhere.

>claims to want proof
>ignores countless examples
>also refuses to provide any himself

You’ve provided zero indication that you’re an expert on anything.


I’m literally LAUGHING MY ASS OFF at how sad and pathetic of a LARP this is and how utterly committed you are

 

[scalpel]

>claims to want proof
>ignores countless examples
>also refuses to provide any himself

You’ve provided zero indication that you’re an expert on anything.

Clinical evidence? None.

Burden of proof? Doesn't know what that is.

Tantrums? Check.

I’m literally LAUGHING MY ASS OFF at how sad and pathetic of a LARP this is and how utterly committed you are

Autism on full blast. Keep those tears coming.

 

[Junaid1800]

Man, this is fucking hilarious for a few reasons:

1. The patient you're showing the images above had massive expansion. Most of you aren't getting that.
2. The patient you've linked above is still growing. There are skeletal changes here that are also attributable to natural growth. And we know this is true (and that you probably haven't watched the entire video and instead cherry picked convenient parts of it because...)
3. ...the patient's twin sister that didn't receive expansion has her scan shown and her cheekbone width is closer to her sister's post expansion than pre expansion...despite having no expansion done yet.
4. Again, uncontrolled before/after photos. The after is much closer up than the before. Definitely a change to the nose that was a treatment effect though.



This is one of the funniest copes I think I've ever seen on this website. Like it reeks of desperation.



Plenty of orthos perform MSE (especially more recently trained ones). I'm not opposed to it. It's effective in specific situations and for specific purposes. It's completely ineffective at changing facial aesthetics, which you really shouldn't be seeing an orthodontist for in the first place unless you're incredibly young (i.e. an actual child).

You have no idea what percentage of orthos perform certain procedures or not. Again, teenagers need to sit out of this conversation.

I’m at intermolar width of 38 (not including teeth) going to go up to 46 mm. If you don’t think you’ll get a facial change from that you’re ignorant asf. I’ll get increase of mm to zygomatic bone . Majority of this forum is like me . I have watched to whole presentation . It even has results from older patients

here’s a 19 year old male

4 mm increase to the zygoma
Dr.Von Moon’s presentation he is talking to other orthodontist 3 hr long video

Mse will not make people into models but it will bring you from a 4.5 psl to 5.5 psl. That good enough for me . You can’t deny the the facial changes. I’m mainly wanting it to improve my airway since I get sleep apnea.

 

[scalpel]

I’m at intermolar width of 38 (not including teeth) going to go up to 46 mm. If you don’t think you’ll get a facial change from that you’re ignorant asf. I’ll get increase of mm to zygomatic bone . Majority of this forum is like me . I have watched to whole presentation . It even has results from older patients

I think it's funny you're assuming appreciable facial change based on an arbitrary intermolar width change.

View attachment 897169

4 mm increase to the zygoma
Dr.Von Moon’s presentation he is talking to other orthodontist 3 hr long video

This guy's cheekbones look exactly the same to me.

Mse will not make people into models but it will bring you from a 4.5 psl to 5.5 psl. That good enough for me . You can’t deny the the facial changes. I’m mainly wanting it to improve my airway since I get sleep apnea.

This is such a specific cope that it's almost entertaining, the fact that you've already assigned a number to the improvement you're expecting. If you want it to improve airway that's reasonable. If you're doing it expecting facial change then be ready for disappointment.

 

[spark]

I’m at intermolar width of 38 (not including teeth) going to go up to 46 mm. If you don’t think you’ll get a facial change from that you’re ignorant asf. I’ll get increase of mm to zygomatic bone . Majority of this forum is like me . I have watched to whole presentation . It even has results from older patients
View attachment 897118
here’s a 19 year old male
View attachment 897169
View attachment 897172
4 mm increase to the zygoma
Dr.Von Moon’s presentation he is talking to other orthodontist 3 hr long video

Mse will not make people into models but it will bring you from a 4.5 psl to 5.5 psl. That good enough for me . You can’t deny the the facial changes. I’m mainly wanting it to improve my airway since I get sleep apnea.

thanks for the video, wasn't aware of it

Maybe the most important piece of information on MSE there is

 

[Deleted member 6111]

MSE will demonstrably and obviously improve mouth width, is probably the best way to fix a cross bite in terms of the underlying structure and will improve airways. anything else is a bonus, although there are cases where people have got noticeable improvements eg to cheekbones

 

[Junaid1800]

thanks for the video, wasn't aware of it

Maybe the most important piece of information on MSE there is

No problem. Glad someone found it helpful .

 

[AscendingHero]

dr ting literally chops the molar bands off of all of his MSE's once placed and has a 1% mse failure rate, its literally not possible to have teeth tipping if no forces are applied to the teeth

@alienmaxxer is this true? did ting cut of your molar bands with mse too?

 

[MSEinvestigator]

You should have just linked to his website that showed his X-rays confirming the split. I didn't realize his MSE was performed with miniscrews as well which sometimes gets you suture split (in his case it did).

Dude are you fucking retarded MSE ALWAYS has TADS. An MSE without TADS is just an RPE