MSE Questions

[highT]

You should have just linked to his website that showed his X-rays confirming the split. I didn't realize his MSE was performed with miniscrews as well which sometimes gets you suture split (in his case it did).

Shut the fuck up you frauding retard. Literally THE ONLY THING that makes the MSE different from previous expanders, is the fact that it utilizes the miniscrew TADs (temporary anchorage devices.) How you could possibly not be aware of this fact, as a supposed “orthodontist” only goes to show how utterly ignorant you are and incredibly fucking stupid to think that you should even speak about this topic. Orthodontist my ass

 

[MSEFM]

I think that's the unfortunate problem with this forum: it's easy for users to find a single paper or two about a technique or procedure that has results they want, and so they start ignoring what the profession's clinical experience/real world outcomes actually are.

The general consensus in the field - and by this I mean orthodontists with years of experience in private practice - is that no, you cannot consistently or reliably split the suture in adults (or even late teens) with MSE.

I think the unfortunate problem with the vast majority of "orthodontists with years of experience in private practice" is that they extract teeth and retrude jaws, with no concern for restricting the airway and adversely impacting the health and appearance of their patients for the rest of their lives just to straighten their teeth.

 

[scalpel]

If 100% of the cases ranging in age from about 14-26 years were successful in that admittedly small study, it includes those who were 18+, but I agree that the research is sparse. Here's another paper specifically about adult populations:

https://62222079-9554-470a-8702-b9943649d392.filesusr.com/ugd/87f545_b26fcb31a5fd48c1a64dbc8e0448260c.pdf

I had cortipuncture performed on my midpalatal suture to help facilitate disarticulation.

This is a case presentation with a sample size of one. Also, notice that all the papers you've linked so far come from the same person, Won Moon? You want to be able to show that his results have been independently replicated by other clinicians, not just the same person championing the same technique.

Shut the fuck up you frauding retard. Literally THE ONLY THING that makes the MSE different from previous expanders, is the fact that it utilizes the miniscrew TADs (temporary anchorage devices.) How you could possibly not be aware of this fact, as a supposed “orthodontist” only goes to show how utterly ignorant you are and incredibly fucking stupid to think that you should even speak about this topic. Orthodontist my ass

If you want to throw a tantrum online because you don't understand the difference in terminology between what people in the field use vs. what a specific technique used is, feel free.

I think the unfortunate problem with the vast majority of "orthodontists with years of experience in private practice" is that they extract teeth and retrude jaws, with no concern for restricting the airway and adversely impacting the health and appearance of their patients for the rest of their lives just to straighten their teeth.

We're actually pretty well trained in when extraction is appropriate vs. inappropriate. I would love to learn more about orthodontic treatment retruding jaws and significantly impacting facial appearance though. Could you link me to some of your sources showing this is a frequent problem in orthodontics?

 

[highT]

If you want to throw a tantrum online because you don't understand the difference in terminology between what people in the field use vs. what a specific technique used is, feel free.

I would like to suspend my disbelief and give you the benefit of the doubt for a moment. Can you show me ONE example of the term “maxillary skeletal expander” being used to describe anything OTHER than a mini-screw (TAD-secured) expander? Every orthodontist’s website I have ever seen defines the MSE specifically as being secured by the mini-screw anchors.

 

[scalpel]

I would like to suspend my disbelief and give you the benefit of the doubt for a moment. Can you show me ONE example of the term “maxillary skeletal expander” being used to describe anything OTHER than a mini-screw (TAD-secured) expander? Every orthodontist’s website I have ever seen defines the MSE specifically as being secured by the mini-screw anchors.

Sure, it's used in this paper despite only one of the patients actually having a MARPE device.

And again - I'm referring to the parlance used among professionals in the field. That's how we use the acronym. I'm not sure what dying on this hill is going to establish when it comes to the lack of efficacy of maxillary expansion vs. facial aesthetics.

 

[MSEFM]

This is a case presentation with a sample size of one. Also, notice that all the papers you've linked so far come from the same person, Won Moon? You want to be able to show that his results have been independently replicated by other clinicians, not just the same person championing the same technique.

Like I said, the research is sparse. Dr. Moon at UCLA is the PI on most of the published articles I've seen, and as the designer he has a vested interest in the success of the appliance. However, that only further demonstrates that "MSE" is a proprietary name specifically referring to the device he designed and isn't a generic term for palatal expansion. That paper discusses the applicability of MSE in adult populations generally and presents one example case. Most community clinicians using the MSE aren't conducting research. I've personally seen reports of dozens of other adult cases (including my own), successfully splitting the midpalatal suture without surgery. Ronald Ead was cited earlier. Here's the blog of a 35-year-old woman: https://mseat35.blogspot.com/ . Here's the blog of a 30-year-old man https://class3mse.medium.com/ . All 3 successfully disarticulated their midpalatal sutures, but also experienced various complications. Because he is routinely successful, Dr. Ting doesn't even perform cortipuncture on women under 40 or men under 20. I've also seen several cases (mostly men over 25) who have failed to separate. A recent example is Evan Lavizadeh on youtube. I'm also unaware of many publications implicating orthodontics in causing obstructive sleep apnea or upper airway resistance syndrome, but I am against procedures like headgear, retraction, extractions, or jaw reduction surgeries that logically reduce tongue space and skeptical of dental alignment that simply masks the narrow dental arches and nasal cavity underlying the cause of crooked teeth.

 

[scalpel]

Like I said, the research is sparse. Dr. Moon at UCLA is the PI on most of the published articles I've seen, and as the designer he has a vested interest in the success of the appliance. However, that only further demonstrates that "MSE" is a proprietary name specifically referring to the device he designed and isn't a generic term for palatal expansion. That paper discusses the applicability of MSE in adult populations generally and presents one example case. Most community clinicians using the MSE aren't conducting research. I've personally seen reports of dozens of other adult cases (including my own), successfully splitting the midpalatal suture without surgery. Ronald Ead was cited earlier. Here's the blog of a 35-year-old woman: https://mseat35.blogspot.com/ . Here's the blog of a 30-year-old man https://class3mse.medium.com/ . All 3 successfully disarticulated their midpalatal sutures, but also experienced various complications. Because he is routinely successful, Dr. Ting doesn't even perform cortipuncture on women under 40 or men under 20. I've also seen several cases (mostly men over 25) who have failed to separate. A recent example is Evan Lavizadeh on youtube. I'm also unaware of many publications implicating orthodontics in causing obstructive sleep apnea or upper airway resistance syndrome, but I am against procedures like headgear, retraction, extractions, or jaw reduction surgeries that logically reduce tongue space and skeptical of dental alignment that simply masks the narrow dental arches and nasal cavity underlying the cause of crooked teeth.

Like I said, when it comes to MARPE (or as you guys call it MSE - though I literally linked a paper above showing this acronym can be used to refer to general expansion), it's a huge maybe - with likelihood of success declining with age, and dropping off significantly after late teens. That there are isolated cases of its success doesn't surprise me. It's still not consistently done by the vast majority of clinicians in practice for a reason.

but I am against procedures like headgear, retraction, extractions, or jaw reduction surgeries that logically reduce tongue space

Why? Is there clinical evidence of these procedures resulting in actual issues?

skeptical of dental alignment that simply masks the narrow dental arches and nasal cavity underlying the cause of crooked teeth.

What do you believe the cause of crooked teeth is?

 

[MSEFM]

Sure, it's used in this paper despite only one of the patients actually having a MARPE device.

The maxillary appliance pictured in the article you linked is in fact the Won Moon MSE-II appliance and not a generic MARPE. You can recognize it by the hexagonal activation site at the center which fits the little wrench.

 

[scalpel]

The maxillary appliance pictured in the article you linked is in fact the Won Moon MSE-II appliance and not a generic MARPE. You can recognize it by the hexagonal activation site at the center which fits the little wrench.

No shit? I'm saying that the article uses the acronym MSE in the context of general maxillary expansion, not just the MARPE specific technique, because only one of the patients had a MARPE. Please try to keep up with the conversation.

 

[MSEFM]

No shit? I'm saying that the article uses the acronym MSE in the context of general maxillary expansion, not just the MARPE specific technique, because only one of the patients had a MARPE. Please try to keep up with the conversation.

And I'm saying your article uses the term MSE specifically because the MARPE they used was an MSE type II designed by Dr. Won Moon.

 

[scalpel]

And I'm saying your article uses the term MSE specifically because the MARPE they used was an MSE type II designed by Dr. Won Moon.

You should try reading the article. There is more than one form of maxillary expansion used in the paper. MSE is used in the title referring to both methods, they never once use it to refer specifically to Moon's device.

Please stop wasting both your time and mine with these attempts to stretch beyond your level of expertise.

 

[MSEFM]

You should try reading the article. There is more than one form of maxillary expansion used in the paper. MSE is used in the title referring to both methods, they never once use it to refer specifically to Moon's device.

Please stop wasting both your time and mine with these attempts to stretch beyond your level of expertise.

Here's a quote from your article "The treatment plan included both maxillary and mandibular distractions. In the maxilla, we used a boneborne device (maxillary skeletal expander; Biomaterials Korea) that employs four bicortical miniscrews." It specifically states that they are referring to the Won Moon appliance produced by Biomaterials Korea. That's whey they call it an "MSE" and not an "MARPE."

 

[scalpel]

Here's a quote from your article "The treatment plan included both maxillary and mandibular distractions. In the maxilla, we used a boneborne device (maxillary skeletal expander; Biomaterials Korea) that employs four bicortical miniscrews." It specifically states that they are referring to the Won Moon appliance produced by Biomaterials Korea. That's whey they call it an "MSE" and not an "MARPE."

Yet Patient 1 specifically does NOT use said device, yet the title of the article isn't "Consideration of Maxillary Skeletal Expansion (MSE), SARPE, and Mandibular Symphyseal Distraction Osteogenesis (MSDO) for the Treatment of Sleep Apnea and Snoring". Can you figure out why that is? Because they use the term for general maxillary expansion, as people in my field do. That they later name the device they only use in Patient 2 is irrelevant. This is also why throughout the entire Discussions section they use the term MARPE and SARPE when discussing the two types of discussion - not MSE and SARPE.

 

[MSEFM]

Yet Patient 1 specifically does NOT use said device, yet the title of the article isn't "Consideration of Maxillary Skeletal Expansion (MSE), SARPE, and Mandibular Symphyseal Distraction Osteogenesis (MSDO) for the Treatment of Sleep Apnea and Snoring". Can you figure out why that is? Because they use the term for general maxillary expansion, as people in my field do. That they later name the device they only use in Patient 2 is irrelevant.

Because the first patient had SARPE and the second patient had MSE and both had MSDO that's what the title is saying. They never use the term MSE in reference to the first patient.

 

[scalpel]

Because the first patient had SARPE and the second patient had MSE and both had MSDO that's what the title is saying. They never use the term MSE in reference to the first patient.

You're just proving my point. They expanded the maxilla and evaluated changes in both patients, not just Patient 2. MSE is used as a general term in the title to refer to both patients. Furthermore, as I mentioned above, the Discussions section specifically uses MARPE vs SARPE to distinguish the two techniques, not MSE vs SARPE.

You're in over your head.

 

[MSEFM]

You're just proving my point. They expanded the maxilla and evaluated changes in both patients, not just Patient 2. MSE is used as a general term in the title to refer to both patients. Furthermore, as I mentioned above, the Discussions section specifically uses MARPE vs SARPE to distinguish the two techniques, not MSE vs SARPE.

You're in over your head.

If the "MSE" of the title was meant as a general term for all skeletal expansion of the maxilla including both the surgical and non-surgical techniques described in the paper, then why would SARPE be specifically listed and why wouldn't MARPE be listed? No the title mentions "SARPE" for the surgical approach (case 1) and "MSE" for the non-surgical MARPE approach (case 2) and they use MSE specifically because the type of MARPE that they used happened to be the MSE appliance developed by Won Moon and produced by Biomaterials Korea as cited under case 2. Rather then flaunting my own credentials, I'm going to let the obvious facts speak for themselves and leave it at that. Good night!

 

[JFM05]

How many months you need braces after mse ?
Is there anyway without braces on ?

What are the disadvantages of MSE?

I want to get lumineers, so ca i get lumineer after Mse ?

depends how good you were before. I have MSE in and will inly need 6 months of Inivisalign

 

[JFM05]

MSE does have screws tho lol. Ur wrong at the first instant, am I fuck reading the rest of your bible.

Yeah ik. I got it intalled and it has 4 tads in the center

 

[scalpel]

If the "MSE" of the title was meant as a general term for all skeletal expansion of the maxilla including both the surgical and non-surgical techniques described in the paper, then why would SARPE be specifically listed and why wouldn't MARPE be listed?

MARPE is specifically listed, in the Discussions section. Convenient how you keep ignoring that.

No the title mentions "SARPE" for the surgical approach (case 1) and "MSE" for the non-surgical MARPE approach (case 2)

Look at that, you're ignoring the Discussions section again. Convenient!

and they use MSE specifically because the type of MARPE that they used happened to be the MSE appliance developed by Won Moon and produced by Biomaterials Korea as cited under case 2.

And they neglected to mention the SARPE in the title because...?

Rather then flaunting my own credentials, I'm going to let the obvious facts speak for themselves and leave it at that. Good night!

You don't have any credentials. This isn't your profession. You're a dude in his late 30s desperately hoping to "expand his cheekbones" and dismissing yourself from this conversation because it became clear you were in over your head.

 

[randomvanish]

You're a dude in his late 30s desperately hoping to "expand his cheekbones" and

lol at that but
i'm a dude at the age of 27 and i'm gonna get zygo+custom wraparound implants around february this year.
so i asked about mse only because to expand my maxilla, even though it's 43mm width.
i was just curios about it if is it possible without braces.
because mentally, i cannot afford to be with braces for 10 months etc.

 

[retard]

Go on then mate show us ur dentistry degree. Where is ur proof it doesn’t split suture?? I don’t need to prove it does, it’s common knowledge. Would you like to show me data that it doesn’t split the suture?

this guy unironically sounds like an ortho, a retarded one albeit jfl

 

[oatmeal]

this guy unironically sounds like an ortho, a retarded one albeit jfl

u didn't show him ur dentist degree though...

 

[scalpel]

lol at that but
i'm a dude at the age of 27 and i'm gonna get zygo+custom wraparound implants around february this year.
so i asked about mse only because to expand my maxilla, even though it's 43mm width.
i was just curios about it if is it possible without braces.
because mentally, i cannot afford to be with braces for 10 months etc.

The implant method is effective, even if it has tradeoffs, so it's good that you're being realistic about it. Expanding the maxilla would require braces after.

 

[JFM05]

Ronald Ead got some cheekbone improvement with the MSE. He is like 30 years old
View attachment 885441

its not as much as it seems. Hes moving his jaw to the other side, so it looks bigger. Look at his 3/4 angle pic and its not htat much gains.

 

[JustBeCurry]

mse will fuck up your es ratio because it increases your bizygo distance more than your ipd

 

[JFM05]

lol at that but
i'm a dude at the age of 27 and i'm gonna get zygo+custom wraparound implants around february this year.
so i asked about mse only because to expand my maxilla, even though it's 43mm width.
i was just curios about it if is it possible without braces.
because mentally, i cannot afford to be with braces for 10 months etc.

You have to get braces and retention

 

[JFM05]

mse will fuck up your es ratio because it increases your bizygo distance more than your ipd

what?

 

[JFM05]

n

mse will fuck up your es ratio because it increases your bizygo distance more than your ipd

not really. I asked Ting bc hes my doctor

 

[Sinjiyam]

99% of people in the field use MSE as an acronym for maxillary expansion irrespective of method, not as an acronym for Moon's device. When people discuss the method of expansion, they use phrases like MARPE and SARPE.

If you want to use MSE interchangeably with MARPE, feel free. None of it changes my point.

Youre so wrong this is sad. MSE is won Moons device and is distinct from MARPE as it’s the only expander that provides parallel expansion.

 

[scalpel]

Youre so wrong this is sad. MSE is won Moons device and is distinct from MARPE as it’s the only expander that provides parallel expansion.

How long have you been an orthodontist for?

MSE (the device) is literally just a type of MARPE. Please, educate yourself.

 

[Sinjiyam]

How long have you been an orthodontist for?

Youre not an ortho. If u are I genuinely feel bad for your patients lol.
i can send u ab invite to the MSE user group if u need )

 

[scalpel]

Youre not an ortho. If u are I genuinely feel bad for your patients lol

So to be clear you're someone not in my field, telling me what acronyms are used among professionals in my gield. This coming from a guy that thinks MSE and MARPE are separate concepts. Nice!

 

[Sinjiyam]

So to be clear you're someone not in my field, telling me what acronyms are used among professionals in my gield. This coming from a guy that things MSE and MARPE are separate concepts. Nice!

If u watched won moons presentation on the subject u would know. I can give u a synopsis if u like. Or we can discuss marianna Evans findings. Whatever u need to be educated on

 

[scalpel]

If u watched won moons presentation on the subject u would know. I can give u a synopsis if u like. Or we can discuss marianna Evans findings. Whatever u need to be educated on

MSE is a type of MARPE. But it's nice to be lectured to by a teenager that watched a presentation, as opposed to one that's been formally educated.

 

[JFM05]

I'm more than happy to provide proof to a moderator.



The suture almost never splits in patients that are adults or in their late teens without any form of surgery. It's too interdigitated at that point. Again, would love to hear your clinical experience with actually using MSE on patients.



Would love for you to link me to the clinical trials performed on a substantial sample size that demonstrated skeletal expansion and splitting of the suture in multiple adult patients using MSE alone.

MSE does fully split the midpalatal and circumitory sutures. New research showed is releases it. It is way better than others. Im getting MSE w Dr Ting.

 

[Sinjiyam]

MSE is a type of MARPE. But it's nice to be lectured to by a teenager that watched a presentation, as opposed to one that's been formally educated.

Yes and no. Sure it’s literally anchored to the maxilla but it’s the best one as I explained above and Won doesn’t it like it being grouped in w inferior expanders. I’m kinda surprised u seem pretty naive. Also I’ve interned and met w countless orthos.

 

[scalpel]

MSE does fully split the midpalatal and circumitory sutures. New research showed is releases it. It is way better than others. Im getting MSE w Dr Ting.

It can fully split it, but its chances of doing so decline rapidly after the late teens. Ting is an eccentric among orthodontists for even attempting it in adults the way he does.

Yes and no. Sure it’s literally anchored to the maxilla but it’s the best one as I explained above and Won doesn’t it like it being grouped in w inferior expanders. I’m kinda surprised u seem pretty naive. Also I’ve interned and met w countless orthos.

It literally is a type of MARPE. Of course Won wants to differentiate his creation from the broader term he falls under, that doesn't change the fact that it's still a type of MARPE.

Interned with countless orthos at the age of 18? Nice job buddy!

 

[JFM05]

It can fully split it, but its chances of doing so decline rapidly after the late teens. Ting is an eccentric among orthodontists for even attempting it in adults the way he does.



It literally is a type of MARPE. Of course Won wants to differentiate his creation from the broader term he falls under, that doesn't change the fact that it's still a type of MARPE.

Interned with countless orthos at the age of 18? Nice job buddy!

you're just a hating currycell mate. JFL

 

[Sinjiyam]

It can fully split it, but its chances of doing so decline rapidly after the late teens. Ting is an eccentric among orthodontists for even attempting it in adults the way he does.



It literally is a type of MARPE. Of course Won wants to differentiate his creation from the broader term he falls under, that doesn't change the fact that it's still a type of MARPE.

Interned with countless orthos at the age of 18? Nice job buddy!

insane cope.

 

[JFM05]

insane cope.

FAX.JFL

 

[scalpel]

insane cope.

you're just a hating currycell mate. JFL

Is this what getting upset because MSE isn't actually viable for your facial goals looks like? Who would have guessed that you guys are 18 and 15 years old, respectively. Truly shocking.

 

[Sinjiyam]

Is this what getting upset because MSE isn't actually viable for your facial goals looks like? Who would have guessed that you guys are 18 and 15 years old, respectively. Truly shocking.

Lol I’m not 18 also I already finished expansion

 

[scalpel]

Lol I’m not 18 also I already finished expansion

Imagine being so embarrassed about your age that you have to lie about it:

I’m 18 so that may make a difference.

 

[Sinjiyam]

Imagine being so embarrassed about your age that you have to lie about it:

I was 18 when I wrote that. Unfortunately for me time doesn’t freeze

 

[randomvanish]

Imagine being so embarrassed about your age that you have to lie about it:

So, mse is useless if you have "normal" palate, right ?
is mine average to be good looking ? 43mm?

 

[Sinjiyam]

So, mse is useless if you have "normal" palate, right ?
is mine average to be good looking ? 43mm?

True maxilla can only be measured w cbct but if u truly do yes

 

[scalpel]

I was 18 when I wrote that. Unfortunately for me time doesn’t freeze

So you're...19? The perfect age to be "interning" with orthodontists. Quit while you're behind.

So, mse is useless if you have "normal" palate, right ?
is mine average to be good looking ? 43mm?

If you have no crossbite or maxillary width issues there's no reason to expand your palate. Especially not for the widespread delusion here that it will positively affect facial aesthetics.

True maxilla can only be measured w cbct but if u truly do yes

More misinformation from the teenager, how surprising. Maxilla can be measured precisely by taking impressions (digitally or physically) and measuring on the stone model or digital recreation. Please stop giving advice if you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Sinjiyam]

So you're...19? The perfect age to be "interning" with orthodontists. Quit while you're behind.



If you have no crossbite or maxillary width issues there's no reason to expand your palate. Especially not for the widespread delusion here that it will positively affect facial aesthetics.

Y do u cope so hard

So you're...19? The perfect age to be "interning" with orthodontists. Quit while you're behind.



If you have no crossbite or maxillary width issues there's no reason to expand your palate. Especially not for the widespread delusion here that it will positively affect facial aesthetics.



More misinformation from the teenager, how surprising. Maxilla can be measured precisely by taking impressions (digitally or physically) and measuring on the stone model or digital recreation. Please stop giving advice if you don't know what you're talking about.

u are delusional at best lol. impressions will give you teeth width. No way you’re an ortho

 

[scalpel]

Y do u cope so hard

u are delusional at best lol. impressions will give you teeth width. No way you’re an ortho

Fun question for the 19 year old orthodontist intern: how do you think orthodontists assess maxillary width when determining the presence of transverse issues?

 

[highT]

Youre not an ortho. If u are I genuinely feel bad for your patients lol.
i can send u ab invite to the MSE user group if u need )

This guy claims to be an orthodontist and has time to spend an evening arguing on a forum with complete strangers. Makes perfect sense