MSE Questions

[scalpel]

This guy claims to be an orthodontist and has time to spend an evening arguing on a forum with complete strangers. Makes perfect sense

Yea, because orthodontists are known for a lack of free time. The profession definitely isn't known for it's relatively low work hours and high salary.

Luckily, the teenagers of Looksmax.me are here to educate me.

 

[Sinjiyam]

Fun question for the 19 year old orthodontist intern: how do you think orthodontists assess maxillary width when determining the presence of transverse issues?

Generally the way u talk about which is why transverse deficiency goes under diagnosed as per Mariana evans. You’re not an ortho btw. Professionals who uses this site confirm and are respected

 

[randomvanish]

If you have no crossbite or maxillary width issues there's no reason to expand your palate. Especially not for the widespread delusion here that it will positively affect facial aesthetics.

i've no crossbite, no recession etc.
it's just i wish my smile looks wider.

 

[scalpel]

Generally the way u talk about which is why transverse deficiency goes under diagnosed as per Mariana evans. You’re not an ortho btw. Professionals who uses this site confirm and are respected

If you think I'm going to confirm in a place where I choose to try to educate you guys with clinically relevant information and in response get namecalling from teenagers, you really must be delusional.

i've no crossbite, no recession etc.
it's just i wish my smile looks wider.

Smile can be made to look wider with archwire expansion, you don't have to reply on maxillary expansion for that.

 

[Sinjiyam]

If you think I'm going to confirm in a place where I choose to try to educate you guys with clinically relevant information and in response get namecalling from teenagers, you really must be delusional.



Smile can be made to look wider with archwire expansion, you don't have to reply on maxillary expansion for that.

Again with the cope and lies

 

[highT]

Is this what getting upset because MSE isn't actually viable for your facial goals looks like? Who would have guessed that you guys are 18 and 15 years old, respectively. Truly shocking.

I have consulted in person with an MSE provider and one of the first things I was told is that MSE will cause expansion of the midfacial bone structure. There are plenty of examples of photographic evidence of this structural change having an aesthetic impact. Not sure why you’re scoffing at the idea. & Yes of course older males are less likely to achieve a successful mid-palatal suture split without some form of surgical assistance, this is not news to anyone

 

[retard]

Yea, because orthodontists are known for a lack of free time. The profession definitely isn't known for it's relatively low work hours and high salary.

Luckily, the teenagers of Looksmax.me are here to educate me.

tbh u should be greatful for the knowledge our autists have given to u if u are truly an ortho and think mse just flares the teeth

 

[randomvanish]

If you think I'm going to confirm in a place where I choose to try to educate you guys with clinically relevant information and in response get namecalling from teenagers, you really must be delusional.



Smile can be made to look wider with archwire expansion, you don't have to reply on maxillary expansion for that.

generally how many months should i wear that device to get, let's say 5mm expansion ? (if possible)

 

[scalpel]

Again with the cope and lies

Ironic coming from the kid that got caught lying about "interning" for orthodontists. I've already offered to verify with moderators. I will gladly do so to confirm that I am in fact an orthodontist - but given the behavior of most of the members here, I don't plan on sticking around after. You guys can enjoy circlejerking each other with your teenage wisdom instead.

tbh u should be greatful for the knowledge our autists have given to u if u are truly an ortho and think mse just flares the teeth

In adults, dental tipping is most of what you can expect. But this is just based off clinical experience, which I think we can both agree is far less valuable than what 15-18 year olds insist is true online.

generally how many months should i wear that device to get, let's say 5mm expansion ? (if possible)

Archwire expansion isn't a device, it's broadening of the smile through the wire used in the brackets.

 

[Sinjiyam]

Ironic coming from the kid that got caught lying about "interning" for orthodontists. I've already offered to verify with moderators. I will gladly do so to confirm that I am in fact an orthodontist - but given the behavior of most of the members here, I don't plan on sticking around after. You guys can enjoy circlejerking each other with your teenage wisdom instead.

What do u mean lol I have why would I lie about that?

 

[curryslayerordeath]

@scalpel What is your intention behind this? You've argued for 3 pages about a purely semantic difference between MARPE and 'maxillary expansion', most of which is fueled by a misunderstanding (when people use the term maxillary expander on this forum, they're almost certainly referring to Moon's variant). Nothing you've posted seems to have the intention of helping forum users, instead it's all pretentiousness about having a degree in orthodontics, big congrats to you for proving teenagers who are looking for assistance wrong bro.

When you say that any form of expansion only produces teeth-tipping, are you saying that all the users who have been through the procedure are blatantly mistaken about their results? (the average user here is in their late teens - early 20s, not 30s - 40s like you implied).

 

[highT]

Based on photos properly taken with the same angle, facial expression from this thread it does not appear his cheekbones have changed at all. Those photos also show that he didn't form a diastema (space) between his front teeth which is how you can tell the suture has split and skeletal expansion has been achieved. All he's experienced is dental tipping.

Literally the most delusional assessment possible. You are an absolute joke. There is irrefutable proof on that guy’s youtube channel of everything you’ve said here being completely false. If you’re actually an ortho I feel bad for any patients you might have because you’re either blind, dishonest or retarded

 

[Deleted member 6382]

@scalpel is copingvolcel 2.0

 

[scalpel]

@scalpel What is your intention behind this? You've argued for 3 pages about a purely semantic difference between MARPE and 'maxillary expansion', most of which is fueled by a misunderstanding (when people use the term maxillary expander on this forum, they're almost certainly referring to Moon's variant). Nothing you've posted seems to have the intention of helping forum users, instead it's all pretentiousness about having a degree in orthodontics,

I've answered multiple people's orthodontic questions, not just argued with users. If the users here choose to spend their time with a semantic debate that's on them. I can't provide help that people don't ask for.

big congrats to you for proving teenagers who are looking for assistance wrong bro.

Are we reading the same thread? The majority of these teenagers aren't looking for assistance. They're looking to have their assumptions validated and lashing out when they aren't.

When you say that any form of expansion only produces teeth-tipping,

I've never said "any form of expansion only produces teeth-tipping". I have said that standard expansion (will avoid MSE since it's causing so much debate here) past the late teens will only produce dental tipping, and that MARPE methods will maybe provide skeletal expansion if the suture can be split, which it can't reliably do with increasing age.

are you saying that all the users who have been through the procedure are blatantly mistaken about their results? (the average user here is in their late teens - early 20s, not 30s - 40s like you implied).

How many of the users in their late teens to early 20s here have actually had the procedure, as opposed to hypothetically planning to?

 

[retard]

Ironic coming from the kid that got caught lying about "interning" for orthodontists. I've already offered to verify with moderators. I will gladly do so to confirm that I am in fact an orthodontist - but given the behavior of most of the members here, I don't plan on sticking around after. You guys can enjoy circlejerking each other with your teenage wisdom instead.



In adults, dental tipping is most of what you can expect. But this is just based off clinical experience, which I think we can both agree is far less valuable than what 15-18 year olds insist is true online.



Archwire expansion isn't a device, it's broadening of the smile through the wire used in the brackets.

dr ting literally chops the molar bands off of all of his MSE's once placed and has a 1% mse failure rate, its literally not possible to have teeth tipping if no forces are applied to the teeth

 

[scalpel]

and has a 1% mse failure rate

LOL

 

[curryslayerordeath]

I've answered multiple people's orthodontic questions, not just argued with users. If the users here choose to spend their time with a semantic debate that's on them. I can't provide help that people don't ask for.

Tbf, this is true

Are we reading the same thread? The majority of these teenagers aren't looking for assistance. They're looking to have their assumptions validated and lashing out when they aren't.

This is a forum of people desperate about improving their looks, a large portion of whom have legitimate maxillofacial issues and would definitely look upon professional assistance positively (look at the users SergioOMS and Surgerymax). They're attacking you because your only arguments are propping up your credentials instead of reading their points.

I've never said "any form of expansion only produces teeth-tipping". I have said that standard expansion (will avoid MSE since it's causing so much debate here) past the late teens will only produce dental tipping, and that MARPE methods will maybe provide skeletal expansion if the suture can be split, which it can't reliably do with increasing age.

Ok then, aside from semantics about the names of procedures, you are in complete agreement with every user in this thread lol...

A large majority of people have a successful split with their MSE (Moon's MARPE variant), with all of the accompanying indicators of pure skeletal expansion. When you claim the opposite, you aren't going against the posters here, but rather the very qualified orthodontists who the posters here are patients of.

How many of the users in their late teens to early 20s here have actually had the procedure, as opposed to hypothetically planning to?

From what I know of, 10+ across PSL, who are all very pleased lol.

 

[retard]

LOL

obviously not just plain mse, but w/ cortical punctures/surgical assist

 

[scalpel]

They're attacking you because your only arguments are propping up your credentials instead of reading their points.

I apologize if clinical experience is more relevant than tightly held beliefs based in emotion rather than actual efficacy. That is a reality of any profession.

Ok then, aside from semantics about the names of procedures, you are in complete agreement with every user in this thread lol...

Yes, I think the only point of disagreement is that even if you do split the suture, effects on facial appearance are minimal. I've attempted to point out a number of times that the semantic debate is meaningless towards this larger point but several users keep circling back to it.

A large majority of people have a successful split with their MSE (Moon's MARPE variant), with all of the accompanying indicators of pure skeletal expansion. When you claim the opposite, you aren't going against the posters here, but rather the very qualified orthodontists who the posters here are patients of.

A large majority...of who? What is the patient experience that you're basing this "majority" off of? I'm not just referring to individual cherry picked cases where the treatment you're referring to happened to work when I say that orthodontists in private practice do not do this for a reason.

From what I know of, 10+ across PSL, who are all very pleased lol.

10+ people out of how many people that tried, failed, and didn't decide to share that here? I'm not just exposed to cases second-hand online by people that speak about it because it worked out well for them (selection bias), I get broader clinical exposure. And as much as you dislike "UR JUST FLEXING UR CREDENTIALS", this is where experience is relevant.

 

[curryslayerordeath]

I apologize if clinical experience is more relevant than tightly held beliefs based in emotion rather than actual efficacy. That is a reality of any profession.

Lol, did I insult you at all? Why are you responding with so much snarky narcissism when nothing I said was remotely emotional jfl?

Yes, I think the only point of disagreement is that even if you do split the suture, effects on facial appearance are minimal. I've attempted to point out a number of times that the semantic debate is meaningless towards this larger point but several users keep circling back to it.

You're misunderstanding this forum tbh, when you the effects on facial appearance are minimal due to people generally looking almost the exact same, that is true. However, most of us on this forum have an autistic focus on looks to the point that we consider mere millimeters of changes in various features on our face to be very significant (ie facial width, mouth width, smile width, etc).

A large majority...of who? What is the patient experience that you're basing this "majority" off of? I'm not just referring to individual cherry picked cases where the treatment you're referring to happened to work when I say that orthodontists in private practice do not do this for a reason.

A large majority of people in their late teens and early 20s, the primary userbase of this forum. I've visited 3 local ortho clinics, all of which had a MARPE included plan for me, so obviously there must be at least a few private practice orthodontists doing this lol. I cba to cite large scale studies, so take as you wish I guess.

10+ people out of how many people that tried, failed, and didn't decide to share that here? I'm not just exposed to cases second-hand online by people that speak about it because it worked out well for them (selection bias), I get broader clinical exposure. And as much as you dislike "UR JUST FLEXING UR CREDENTIALS", this is where experience is relevant.

Most of the users have posts before, during, and after the treatment so any device failure would be immediately obvious from checking their account. If you're curious enough to look, just search 'MSE' or 'palate expansion' into the looksmax or lookism local site search engine and read some of the account histories.


Btw the rationale behind your degree not being of much importance is because you aren't arguing off of conclusions forum members have derived themselves, but rather what they interpret from their [also trained] orthodontist. In that case, its a matter of your opinion vs other established practitioners' (like Richard Ting for example) opinions.

 

[scalpel]

Lol, did I insult you at all? Why are you responding with so much snarky narcissism when nothing I said was remotely emotional jfl?

I'm not insulting you, I'm just explaining why my behavior here is the way it has been. Most of it hasn't been directed to you, it seems like our conversation has been a meta-commentary on the discussion so far.

You're misunderstanding this forum tbh, when you the effects on facial appearance are minimal due to people generally looking almost the exact same, that is true. However, most of us on this forum have an autistic focus on looks to the point that we consider mere millimeters of changes in various features on our face to be very significant (ie facial width, mouth width, smile width, etc).

Fair enough, but if maximizing one's appearance is the goal, surely one's time, attention, and finances would be better spent focusing on methods of improvement that yield more obvious benefit?

A large majority of people in their late teens and early 20s, the primary userbase of this forum. I've visited 3 local ortho clinics, all of which had a MARPE included plan for me, so obviously there must be at least a few private practice orthodontists doing this lol. I cba to cite large scale studies, so take as you wish I guess.

I'm not familiar with your age or case, it's possible a MARPE is actually suitable for your treatment. MARPE is perfectly suitable for some cases, it's not a treatment I'm opposed to using.

Most of the users have posts before, during, and after the treatment so any device failure would be immediately obvious from checking their account. If you're curious enough to look, just search 'MSE' or 'palate expansion' into the looksmax or lookism local site search engine and read some of the account histories.

If you can show me some of the 10+ cases from here with posts, x-rays, proper clinical photos, etc. I'd gladly take a look. Unfortunately the searches you're suggesting yield a ton of useless results.

Btw the rationale behind your degree not being of much importance is because you aren't arguing off of conclusions forum members have derived themselves, but rather what they interpret from their [also trained] orthodontist. In that case, its a matter of your opinion vs other established practitioners' (like Richard Ting for example) opinions.

Most of them seem to be from the same orthodontist (Ting) and looking at post histories of the ones in here many of them are just planning a MARPE and haven't actually had treatment. And this is the problem - they want the procedure to work more than they actually know about the procedure.

 

[MD_Hopeful69]

I'm not insulting you, I'm just explaining why my behavior here is the way it has been. Most of it hasn't been directed to you, it seems like our conversation has been a meta-commentary on the discussion so far.



Fair enough, but if maximizing one's appearance is the goal, surely one's time, attention, and finances would be better spent focusing on methods of improvement that yield more obvious benefit?


I'm not familiar with your age or case, it's possible a MARPE is actually suitable for your treatment. MARPE is perfectly suitable for some cases, it's not a treatment I'm opposed to using.



If you can show me some of the 10+ cases from here with posts, x-rays, proper clinical photos, etc. I'd gladly take a look. Unfortunately the searches you're suggesting yield a ton of useless results.




Most of them seem to be from the same orthodontist (Ting) and looking at post histories of the ones in here many of them are just planning a MARPE and haven't actually had treatment. And this is the problem - they want the procedure to work more than they actually know about the procedure.

Can the maxillary arch be widened during a LF1?

 

[scalpel]

Can the maxillary arch be widened during a LF1?

Yes.

 

[MD_Hopeful69]

Yes.

How so?

 

[Autismmaxxed]

so surgically splitting the suture then installing MSE is ideal for adults?

 

[scalpel]

How so?

Segmental LeFort 1 allows you to modify the transverse dimensions of the maxilla in addition to the vertical and sagittal. Alternatively, you can use SARPE to achieve the expansion.

so surgically splitting the suture then installing MSE is ideal for adults?

It's the method with the highest success in adults.

 

[Autismmaxxed]

Thanks
Idk why people coping. Well known that lots people palate too thick and hard to split with MSE only when adult

 

[curryslayerordeath]

Fair enough, but if maximizing one's appearance is the goal, surely one's time, attention, and finances would be better spent focusing on methods of improvement that yield more obvious benefit?

Usually most people do procedures with a surplus of money and time, just with a more attentive focus on minute details.

I'm not familiar with your age or case, it's possible a MARPE is actually suitable for your treatment. MARPE is perfectly suitable for some cases, it's not a treatment I'm opposed to using.

If you can show me some of the 10+ cases from here with posts, x-rays, proper clinical photos, etc. I'd gladly take a look. Unfortunately the searches you're suggesting yield a ton of useless results.

Most of them seem to be from the same orthodontist (Ting) and looking at post histories of the ones in here many of them are just planning a MARPE and haven't actually had treatment. And this is the problem - they want the procedure to work more than they actually know about the procedure.

Tbh, I don't disagree with any of this, generalizing from cases is def a bad idea. I'm honestly only concerned with my own case.

 

[Mouthbreath]

enjoy having a wide lower third, mismatched with your narrow ipd, thus completely destryoing your harmony.

 

[randomvanish]

enjoy having a wide lower third, mismatched with your narrow ipd, thus completely destryoing your harmony.

lol you don't even know my face, why make dumb assumptions like that ?

 

[Mouthbreath]

lol you don't even know my face, why make dumb assumptions like that ?

if you want mse you have narrow palate , which almost always comes together with narrow ipd, so its not too big of an assumption

 

[randomvanish]

if you want mse you have narrow palate , which almost always comes together with narrow ipd, so its not too big of an assumption

i've already stated that i have above avarage palate. i just wish i could have wider smile.

 

[Sergio-OMS]

Let this be clear: the kids on here pursuing MSE in the hope of facial improvement are completely wasting their time.

Adults, not kids. Teens do notice real and visible changes compared to other expanders.

 

[Sergio-OMS]

This guy claims to be an orthodontist and has time to spend an evening arguing on a forum with complete strangers. Makes perfect sense

Well... I spend some time here too.

 

[optimisticzoomer]

I'm an orthodontist

 

[Sergio-OMS]

Well, many orthodontists master the art of lying.

 

[optimisticzoomer]

You should have just linked to his website that showed his X-rays confirming the split. I didn't realize his MSE was performed with miniscrews as well which sometimes gets you suture split (in his case it did).

Mse always has mini screws. How the fuck else is it gonna anchor into the palate?

 

[scalpel]

Adults, not kids. Teens do notice real and visible changes compared to other expanders.

The “kids” here are mostly late teens. And I’d love to see clinical photos demonstrating visible facial changes in patients in their late teens undergoing MARPE, if you could provide any.

Well, many orthodontists master the art of lying.

Sad to see someone that’s supposed to be a professional joining the circlejerk of teenagers.

 

[scalpel]

Mse always has mini screws. How the fuck else is it gonna anchor into the palate?

congratulations on being about 3 pages behind on this conversation.

 

[Sadboi]

congratulations on being about 3 pages behind on this conversation.

No one appreciates ur pretentious and condescending douche tones lol. Fuck outta here boy, can’t believe we argued because you misunderstood everyone on this forum understands that a MSE refers to moons device, regardless if it’s just another type of marpe or whatever, no one gives a fuck were talking about one specific MSE device. If you’ve got a ortho degree no one gives a shit if ur just going to argue over semantics for 3 pages, act like a mature adult lol and call everyone teenagers. Sit down son.

 

[scalpel]

No one appreciates ur pretentious and condescending douche tones lol. Fuck outta here boy, can’t believe we argued because you misunderstood everyone on this forum understands that a MSE refers to moons device, regardless if it’s just another type of marpe or whatever, no one gives a fuck were talking about one specific MSE device. If you’ve got a ortho degree no one gives a shit if ur just going to argue over semantics for 3 pages, act like a mature adult lol and call everyone teenagers. Sit down son.

It’s ironic that you’re complaining about arguing over semantics when it was users like you (and the guy above) that perpetuated that argument rather than moving on. If you want to be treated like an adult, behave like one. Nobody is going to take you seriously or treat you with respect - here or in the real world - when your ability to communicate is limited to incel level language

 

[Sadboi]

It’s ironic that you’re complaining about arguing over semantics when it was users like you (and the guy above) that perpetuated that argument rather than moving on. If you want to be treated like an adult, behave like one. Nobody is going to take you seriously or treat you with respect - here or in the real world - when your ability to communicate is limited to incel level language

Hahaha damn I’m fucked then, I’ll get the rope. Yeah let me come to the looksmax forum to get treated like an adult lol. Is that a double hyphen at the end there? Man, ur English skills are defo not incel level, really showing off them essay writing skills with that dentistry degree. Btw, are you taking on any patients any time soon?

 

[scalpel]

Hahaha damn I’m fucked then, I’ll get the rope. Yeah let me come to the looksmax forum to get treated like an adult lol. Is that a double hyphen at the end there? Man, ur English skills are defo not incel level, really showing off them essay writing skills with that dentistry degree. Btw, are you taking on any patients any time soon?

“Act like a mature adult”

“Stop writing too well”

Users like you are why this forum is largely perceived as a joke.

 

[Sadboi]

“Act like a mature adult”

“Stop writing too well”

Users like you are why this forum is largely perceived as a joke.

You don’t know shit about these forums if you don’t know that everyone calls a MSE, the device that split the sutures . Go argue semantics somewhere else, people on here are wanting standard answers not essays brother.

 

[scalpel]

You don’t know shit about these forums if you don’t know that everyone calls a MSE, the device that split the sutures . Go argue semantics somewhere else, people on here are wanting standard answers not essays brother.

Imagine complaining about a semantic argument and then trying to restart the same argument within 5 minutes. You should probably calm down.

 

[spark]

The “kids” here are mostly late teens. And I’d love to see clinical photos demonstrating visible facial changes in patients in their late teens undergoing MARPE, if you could provide any.



Sad to see someone that’s supposed to be a professional joining the circlejerk of teenagers.

 

[scalpel]

View attachment 888670

Where are the details of this case?

 

[Deleted member 8229]

Holy shit @scalpel acting like a degenerate autist for 3 pages straight, already integrating quite nicely JFL

 

[spark]

Where are the details of this case?

someone posted it here long time ago, it is indeed an MSE case

 

[scalpel]

someone posted it here long time ago, it is indeed an MSE case

Link me to it if you can find it, because these are pretty terrible photos.