NPC trait: considering incest to be inherently "bad"

[Reckless Turtle]

In this discussion, I want this guy to ackledge minors can't consent as they don't understand the implications of a relationship, escxpually a sexual relaitonship. This position rests on the development of sentience, it's why we can distinguish between adult and child, and child and infant, and a fetus, and a pig.

Yeah, keep rambling on with the strawmans while providing 0 sources for your previous claim...

Not all vegans are high IQ.

Are you speaking for yourself here?

 

[Deleted member 29796]

Yeah, keep rambling on with the strawmans while providing 0 sources for your previous claim...


Are you speaking for yourself here?

We won't get anywhere, you took the offensive from the start when I wasn't even arguing your position. I can't tell if that is a reading comprehension issue or if you just assumed I was the random brainlet attacking from a dishonest angle. I only ever suggested at first that the idea that law influences their behavior towards incest didn't make sense because law comes from morality, morality from the mind, so I'm suggesting the mind likely influences the reason for outlawing incest. So why?

It's crazy because I'm not even arguing against what you think I am. lol How can someone that denies an inherent evil for incest, not come to agreement with you on positions in favor of incest? You have brainlets running in here unironically saying "incest = bad", I already swatted that down in the first post. I even linked a video to support your argument, which even provided some arguments against thing I suggested in this thread.


I hold no ill will towards anyone, no animosity, so can we acknowledge that a majority of this back and forth was us talking past each other? Because if can't agree on that, I will leave it to others to judge.


This is my first reply, read it after cooling down.

It's not inherently bad but serious people don't look at the genetic component of incest when determining if it is morally wrong or not, you usually proceed to argue about the topic assuming it isn't even possible to produce offspring or that the offspring will be healthy. Point is, there are so many arguments to consider regarding the topic, offspring is just the surface of the discussion.

And this

Yeah, but consider, I don't think the law is playing into it, these people are growing up together in small spaces. I think in those conditions, they should naturally build up a level of disgust that prevents sexual intercourse from happening. Put simply, can you even imagine fucking your own mother? Unless you are porn fucked, that idea shouldn't even cross your mind. But why? It isn't the law. It think it's disgust plus a bond that is primarily built on things that aren't related to sex, the expectation of support from that person, a reliance on that person.

So in an environment where families are being raised in private households, building those bonds, I see it as disastrous to society to introduce incest legally, you have power dynamics, and so many other things at play that can become destroyed through sexual relations, and this will bleed onto society, outside of the house.

But I would say, it's probably possible to avoid most serious negatives in an environment that was heavily community oriented, so everyone raising other children.

My goodness, you guys just can't read.

 

[Deleted member 29796]

And I'm zoned out of my mind, the best swattings come in this state. This guy is simple as fuck.

@Reckless Turtle

What is your justification for veganism? lol

 

[Deleted member 29796]

Actually, I want to know why you are vegan, this is interesting as hell to me because some comments in this thread conflict with so many tenets of veganism.

You want to hop on discord? @Reckless Turtle

 

[Reckless Turtle]

We won't get anywhere, you took the offensive from the start when I wasn't even arguing your position.

Once again, I wasn't taking the offensive, I was correcting you for forming a strawman in my post.

I can't tell if that is a reading comprehension issue

Ironic.

I only ever suggested at first that the idea that law influences their behavior towards incest didn't make sense because law comes from morality, morality from the mind, so I'm suggesting the mind likely influences the reason for outlawing incest. So why?

Incest is shunned within societies as a means of male intrasexual competition (and is inherently gynocentric because it allows some degree of sexual mobility for females) rather than because it's inherently problematic, genetically.

It's crazy because I'm not even arguing against what you think I am.

Ironic.

 

[Deleted member 26410]

Subhuman Trait: Doing research on obscure topics that nobody cares about like an autist.

 

[Reckless Turtle]

What is your justification for veganism?

I've literally never claimed to be one once in this forum.

 

[Reckless Turtle]

Subhuman Trait: Doing research on obscure topics that nobody cares about like an autist.

Gung-ho Asian​

A magician never reveals his secrets​

 

[Deleted member 23804]

 

[Deleted member 26410]

Gung-ho Asian​

A magician never reveals his secrets​

Basically telling people to not tell others about looksmaxxing lmao

 

[Deleted member 29796]

I've literally never claimed to be one once in this forum.

@Crusile This guy is low IQ.


And that discord invite is off the table, I thought you were some wild guy for a second, an interesting person, you are just another dumbass. And I definitely would have slapped you on discord, but the invite is off because you are simple, average.

 

[Deleted member 21661]

this thread was typed by brown fingers from a hut in Pakistan

To be honest. Why do Pakistanis like incest? It's one thing if you have a hot sibling. But their siblings are pakis. I'm not an incestuous guy at all. And I don't have a sister. But if I did, I'd rather fuck her than fuck a paki. Just saying.

 

[Reckless Turtle]

@

@Crusile This guy is low IQ.


And that discord invite is off the table, I thought you were some wild guy for a second, an interesting person, you are just another dumbass. And I definitely would have slapped you on discord, but the invite is off because you are simple, average.

I had no interest in getting on Discord with somebody who constantly engages in strawmans, ad homs, and doesn't cite their sources.

 

[Deleted member 29796]

I had no interest in getting on Discord with somebody who constantly engages in strawmans, ad homs, and doesn't cite their sources.

You would have been slapped. ad homs? You want to dive into the justification of ad homs? Shut the fuck up, if we debated, you would have been verbally slapped. And you would never forget that, you might never forget this.

 

[Reckless Turtle]

ad homs? You want to dive into the justification of ad homs?

There isn't a justification unless it's a response to previous ad homs. Feel free to go back a page to see who's been throwing temper tantrums.

 

[Deleted member 29796]

There isn't a justification unless it's a response to previous ad homs. Feel free to go back a page to see who's been throwing temper tantrums.

Galaxy brain... And what about rhetoric, what is the relation of ad hominems and rhetoric? Do you recognize one, and what of the arguments in favor or against, can you provide an argument for each one?

 

[Reckless Turtle]

Galaxy brain... And what about rhetoric, what is the relation of ad hominems and rhetoric? Do you recognize one, and what of the arguments in favor or against, can you provide an argument for each one?

You've gone full schizo mode. IDK what you're even trying to argue at this point.

 

[Deleted member 29796]

You've gone full schizo mode. IDK what you're even trying to argue at this point.

I'm a dickhead, but reality is, I mog your existence, so none of this shit matters. That was mean as fuck, true as fuck, but you aren't vegan so I have no sympathy for you. So rot. Pun intended, btw.

And don't say I don't mog your existence, you don't get the attention I get and I would slap you irl. Fuck off. I'm sorry but you are just dumb and annoying, you annoy the fuck out of me because you are so simple and think so highly of yourself, I don't even like to think highly of myself but then I meet people like you, nothing good about them. Rot.

 

[Reckless Turtle]

but you aren't vegan

Baseless assumption. Keep writing paragraphs though.

 

[Sanguinius]

Inbreeding is only detrimental to a population if the resulting offspring have poor genetic resilience to environmental factors. Some detrimental phenotypes can result from inbreeding due to the combination of recessive alleles, but that depends on the parents carrying said alleles.

Inbreeding is extremely common among most animal species and frequently results in increased offspring fitness.

Incest is shunned within societies as a means of male intrasexual competition (and is inherently gynocentric because it allows some degree of sexual mobility for females) rather than because it's inherently problematic, genetically.

Without punishments for incest among the common folk, powerful men would have more difficulty assembling virginal harems due to most females losing their virginities to a close male family member (fathers, brothers, etc) who have the easiest, immediate access. With incestuous punishments in place, common folk fathers are forced to give their daughters to another man (or else the daughters will choose for themselves) which ultimately leads a disproportionate amount of women to the most powerful or genetically optimal males within the society.

Note that laws against incest are rarely applied to the elites; many kings and princes reproduced with their female family members in addition to having harems of other men's daughters.

Currently, certain countries (most in Western Europe) have restrictions on the number of times a sperm bank can use a singular sperm sample. The argument is that, without a limit, inbreeding will become too prominent, which is detrimental to society. However, as explained before, that argument is bogus, especially considering that women are naturally inclined to reproduce with a minority of the male population.

Incest is not strongly selected against; hypergamy prevails

If 90%+ of young men are not sexually attractive to women, then: There is a 90%+ chance that a girl would never be sexually attracted to her brother, regardless of him being her brother. Fathers may have an even smaller chance of being sexually attractive to their daughters (once they are...

looksmax.org

Sperm bank/imports requirements/data

You’ve aged out of the program. Sperm donors need to be between the ages of 18 and 28. We do not accept older sperm donors. Among white donors, they also require their donors to be taller than 5'10". Sperm Donors Must Be: At least 5’10” tall Brown has heard of additional limitations from...

looksmax.org

Can you expanded on incest often resulting in increased offspring fitness? I’ve never heard of that before

 

[Reckless Turtle]

Can you expanded on incest often resulting in increased offspring fitness? I’ve never heard of that before

Have you heard of genetically modified crops?

 

[Sanguinius]

Have you heard of genetically modified crops?

yes, go on…

 

[Reckless Turtle]

yes, go on…

A particular strain of crop seems to be resilient to insects. Rather than interbreeding the crop with a different but similar crop, the crop is bred with its same strain with the intention of creating a more homozygous crop that will become increasingly resilient to insects.

A female is really good at sprinting. Unsurprisingly, so is her brother. She meets a guy at school who is awful at sprinting. If she reproduces, which man's sperm is likely to form an offspring that is good at sprinting—her brother's or the guy's she met at school?

 

[Crusile]

I've literally never claimed to be one once in this forum.

If you eat plant based, you are vegan. Im also vegan even tho I eat foods with milk in the ingredients. Sometimes I eat candy with "gelatin" its whatever and doesnt make me less of a vegan. It is what it is.

The objective fact about the brain is that it peaks in mass at around age 16 for females and 19 for males.

Brain size - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The skull stops developing at like 19 but brain development continues, its all about brain composition, not size . @Reconstitution Brain development continues but its impossible to know if physical differences in the brain 'cause' maturity. 7 years into adult hood should make everyone more mature due to experience, and 20 more years should make them, even more mature. The problem with a 25 age cut off is that the development of brain composition by age is not linear, there is a lot of noise, unlike irl time spent being alive (age).

You could find 25 yr olds with "less developed brains" than teenagers, 25 is just the avg

 

[Deleted member 11126]

Inbreeding is only detrimental to a population if the resulting offspring have poor genetic resilience to environmental factors. Some detrimental phenotypes can result from inbreeding due to the combination of recessive alleles, but that depends on the parents carrying said alleles.

Inbreeding is extremely common among most animal species and frequently results in increased offspring fitness.

Incest is shunned within societies as a means of male intrasexual competition (and is inherently gynocentric because it allows some degree of sexual mobility for females) rather than because it's inherently problematic, genetically.

Without punishments for incest among the common folk, powerful men would have more difficulty assembling virginal harems due to most females losing their virginities to a close male family member (fathers, brothers, etc) who have the easiest, immediate access. With incestuous punishments in place, common folk fathers are forced to give their daughters to another man (or else the daughters will choose for themselves) which ultimately leads a disproportionate amount of women to the most powerful or genetically optimal males within the society.

Note that laws against incest are rarely applied to the elites; many kings and princes reproduced with their female family members in addition to having harems of other men's daughters.

Currently, certain countries (most in Western Europe) have restrictions on the number of times a sperm bank can use a singular sperm sample. The argument is that, without a limit, inbreeding will become too prominent, which is detrimental to society. However, as explained before, that argument is bogus, especially considering that women are naturally inclined to reproduce with a minority of the male population.

Incest is not strongly selected against; hypergamy prevails

If 90%+ of young men are not sexually attractive to women, then: There is a 90%+ chance that a girl would never be sexually attracted to her brother, regardless of him being her brother. Fathers may have an even smaller chance of being sexually attractive to their daughters (once they are...

looksmax.org

Sperm bank/imports requirements/data

You’ve aged out of the program. Sperm donors need to be between the ages of 18 and 28. We do not accept older sperm donors. Among white donors, they also require their donors to be taller than 5'10". Sperm Donors Must Be: At least 5’10” tall Brown has heard of additional limitations from...

looksmax.org

Cousins is probably fine. Its no worse then 30+ women having kids ironically. But anymore then that is not good.

Cousin marriages are also bad when its multiple generations 1 generation is generally fine and its mainly due to cultural norms. Although incest between siblings is not natural in nature if you have options mice in labs only did it if they were in captivity and no other options.

I think one reason cousin shit is so shilled against is because creating connected blood lines like this allow certain families to have more and more control. The Elite today are all inbred and they do this to maintain their power it has negatives as well. A small inbred elite group control this country today. Inbreding on this scale in these elite groups in a way creates subraces in where they belonged to a larger group but they become off shoots of this and they can only care about those in their bloodlines.

The European kings in the past were related from Russia to Britian they all shared at least a grandparents or great grandparents and would commonly intermix again and again

 

[Crusile]

@Crusile

Look how fucking stupid this guy is.

 

[Crusile]

YES ITS CULTURALLY DEPDENT(sons are brainwashed to not impregnate mother) BUT WE LIVE IN THIS CULTURE stfu. I could make up a culture that farms fetuses for food/nutrients.

 

[Reckless Turtle]

If you eat plant based, you are vegan.

Not necessarily.

Im also vegan even tho I eat foods with milk in the ingredients. Sometimes I eat candy with "gelatin" its whatever and doesnt make me less of a vegan. It is what it is.

No you aren't and yes it does.

The skull stops developing at like 19 but brain development continues

If you're going to use "develop" in a bastardized manner then this is incorrect as well, as skull sutures continue to harden past 19.

Brain development continues but its impossible to know if physical differences in the brain 'cause' maturity.

Maturization ceases at around the of 19 for males. If you consider stimuli-based changes afterward as "development" then fine, but that isn't maturization.

You could find 25 yr olds with "less developed brains" than teenagers, 25 is just the avg

The average for what? The brain (including the prefrontal cortex) continues to change until death due to aging and increased exposure to various stimuli.

 

[Reckless Turtle]

Cousins is probably fine. Its no worse then 30+ women having kids ironically. But anymore then that is not good.

Cousin marriages are also bad when its multiple generations 1 generation is generally fine and its mainly due to cultural norms. Although incest between siblings is not natural in nature if you have options mice in labs only did it if they were in captivity and no other options.

I think one reason cousin shit is so shilled against is because creating connected blood lines like this allow certain families to have more and more control. The Elite today are all inbred and they do this to maintain their power it has negatives as well. A small inbred elite group control this country today. Inbreding on this scale in these elite groups in a way creates subraces in where they belonged to a larger group but they become off shoots of this and they can only care about those in their bloodlines.

The European kings in the past were related from Russia to Britian they all shared at least a grandparents or great grandparents and would commonly intermix again and again

You definitely took the OP and went on a long tangent. Source for the mouse study?

 

[Reckless Turtle]

YES ITS CULTURALLY DEPDENT(sons are brainwashed to not impregnate mother) BUT WE LIVE IN THIS CULTURE stfu. I could make up a culture that farms fetuses for food/nutrients.

What's your point? Am I supposed to reply or STFU?

 

[Crusile]

Not necessarily.


No you aren't and yes it does.


If you're going to use "develop" in a bastardized manner then this is incorrect as well, as skull sutures continue to harden past 19.


Maturization ceases at around the of 19 for males. If you consider stimuli-based changes afterward as "development" then fine, but that isn't maturization.


The average for what? The brain (including the prefrontal cortex) continues to change until death due to aging and increased exposure to various stimuli.

No if the physical properties of the brain develop due to irl time aging, that is maturation. Brain composition is much more than "size/mass"

 

[Deleted member 11126]

You definitely took the OP and went on a long tangent. Source for the mouse study?

Yeah sorry man I just accidentally took too much adderall. Anyways I can't find the one but this one goes over how insects have certain phermones to avoid it

Kin recognition and incest avoidance in a group-living insect

Abstract. Mate choice theories predict that animals evolved strategies to mate with optimally genetically dissimilar partners, providing fitness benefits.

academic.oup.com

But incest is not bad how humans see it cousins have a lot of genetic differences. 2nd gen cousins are so genetically different they might as well be strangers or belong to the same race. Another factor with incest is that bad genes got killed off more whereas in the modern day being born with some weird trait means you don't die off so incest was more eugenic in tribes as a bad trait would eventually die off. Incest can be good if you have a quality gene to spread among people. This is why for example Jews or Brahmin Indians are 1 SD higher in IQ then other groups around them. Since they had little outbreeding good traits spread more among each person.

But there are plenty of inbred tribes somewhere with 70 IQ too

 

[Deleted member 29796]

If you eat plant based, you are vegan. Im also vegan even tho I eat foods with milk in the ingredients. Sometimes I eat candy with "gelatin" its whatever and doesnt make me less of a vegan. It is what it is.

The skull stops developing at like 19 but brain development continues, its all about brain composition, not size . @Reconstitution Brain development continues but its impossible to know if physical differences in the brain 'cause' maturity. 7 years into adult hood should make everyone more mature due to experience, and 20 more years should make them, even more mature. The problem with a 25 age cut off is that the development of brain composition by age is not linear, there is a lot of noise, unlike irl time spent being alive (age).

You could find 25 yr olds with "less developed brains" than teenagers, 25 is just the avg

I see your position, I can't argue against it, my assumed position is expecting limitations of the brain between a 15 year old and a 25 year old. Less reasoning, less abstract thinking, etc. but through imaging, you can see the difference in prefrontal activation, I'm speaking to that with regard to maturity. It's why I see those years as peek for establishing a basis for reasoning, else getting sort of stuck, but I think the average person is capable of this basis, but external factors can prevent it.


This is how most people are, that I run into:

with light to dark representing the reducing probability of an individual being able to go that far with an argument. I was never taught this stuff, but I can see it in my head when arguing, if that makes sense. It's rare as fuck I run into people that can do dark red, the grey area is anomaly tier in my experience and I'm accounting for all ages, it's actually sort of rare that I run into teens for debate, guess it's the additional time to rot.

-----

Also while plant based is nice, I would say moral justification is needed for veganism, just for support of the argument publically, because then you get plant based idiots walking around saying dumb shit about veganism, I just want that distinction because vegetarians and plant based people tend to say dumb shit that hurts veganism. And it's 2023 and I still see studies and academic conflating veganism with veteranism and a plant based diet, that stuff is wild.

Also, an incoherency argument. A plant based person would avoid eating meat to maintain "plant based", but a vegan ironically can eat meat. The plant based person making the dietary choice, and the vegan eating meat when it isn't in support of unnecessary harm, roadkill or etc., of course, there are disagreements there but the possibility exists for vegans.

But I obviously support any reductions to animal harm.

 

[Crusile]

What's your point? Am I supposed to reply or STFU?

I could make up a culture where fetuses are farmed for nootrients (in artificial wombs)

 

[Reckless Turtle]

No if the physical properties of the brain develop due to irl time aging, that is maturation.

In a strictly biological context, maturation is synonymous with sexual maturation, which ceases at around the age of 19 for males.

mat·u·ra·tion
/ˌmaCHəˈrāSHən/
the action or process of maturing.
"sexual maturation"

 

[Reckless Turtle]

Yeah sorry man I just accidentally took too much adderall. Anyways I can't find the one but this one goes over how insects have certain phermones to avoid it

Kin recognition and incest avoidance in a group-living insect

Abstract. Mate choice theories predict that animals evolved strategies to mate with optimally genetically dissimilar partners, providing fitness benefits.

academic.oup.com

But incest is not bad how humans see it cousins have a lot of genetic differences. 2nd gen cousins are so genetically different they might as well be strangers or belong to the same race. Another factor with incest is that bad genes got killed off more whereas in the modern day being born with some weird trait means you don't die off so incest was more eugenic in tribes as a bad trait would eventually die off. Incest can be good if you have a quality gene to spread among people. This is why for example Jews or Brahmin Indians are 1 SD higher in IQ then other groups around them. Since they had little outbreeding good traits spread more among each person.

But there are plenty of inbred tribes somewhere with 70 IQ too

Kin recognition for the purpose of incest avoidance is beneficial under environmental circumstances favoring heterozygosity. However, some environmental circumstances could favor homozygosity in a particular direction, thus favoring incestuous reproduction.

 

[Reckless Turtle]

I could make up a culture where fetuses are farmed for nootrients (in artificial wombs)

What's your point?

 

[Deleted member 11126]

Kin recognition for the purpose of incest avoidance is beneficial under environmental circumstances favoring heterozygosity. However, some environmental circumstances could favor homozygosity in a particular direction, thus favoring incestuous reproduction.

Yeah it depends its not inherently good or bad also the human race has been reduced to 3,000 people more then once and this has occurred in various areas due to disasters.

 

[Reckless Turtle]

Yeah it depends its not inherently good or bad

Apparently you're the first person in three pages to understand the OP.

 

[Crusile]

I see your position, I can't argue against it, my assumed position is expecting limitations of the brain between a 15 year old and a 25 year old. Less reasoning, less abstract thinking, etc. but through imaging, you can see the difference in prefrontal activation, I'm speaking to that with regard to maturity. It's why I see those years as peek for establishing a basis for reasoning, else getting sort of stuck, but I think the average person is capable of this basis, but external factors can prevent it.


This is how most people are, that I run into:

with light to dark representing the reducing probability of an individual being able to go that far with an argument. I was never taught this stuff, but I can see it in my head when arguing, if that makes sense. It's rare as fuck I run into people that can do dark red, the grey area is anomaly tier in my experience and I'm accounting for all ages, it's actually sort of rare that I run into teens for debate, guess it's the additional time to rot.

-----

Also while plant based is nice, I would say moral justification is needed for veganism, just for support of the argument publically, because then you get plant based idiots walking around saying dumb shit about veganism, I just want that distinction because vegetarians and plant based people tend to say dumb shit that hurts veganism. And it's 2023 and I still see studies and academic conflating veganism with veteranism and a plant based diet, that stuff is wild.

Also, an incoherency argument. A plant based person would avoid eating meat to maintain "plant based", but a vegan ironically can eat meat. The plant based person making the dietary choice, and the vegan eating meat when it isn't in support of unnecessary harm, roadkill or etc., of course, there are disagreements there but the possibility exists for vegans.

But I obviously support any reductions to animal harm.

not saying one way or another, its just unknown if brain development is what matters in maturity. If it did, they could compare "less developed brains" to "more development brains" and try to predict "maturity levels". (and i would expect it to have really low predictive power"

Brain development continuing into 20s-30s is legit and turtle is wrong, however.

it seems easier to argue for irl years and the amount of people who get 'traumatized' later in life by the specific experience ( age of consent breakpoint).

 

[Crusile]

In a strictly biological context, maturation is synonymous with sexual maturation, which ceases at around the age of 19 for males.

now, what does brain development mean? If the brain is still developing, it is "maturing", OBVIOUSLY

Brain development is characterized by sequences of biological processes that lead to the formation of functional neural networks.

Also, brain volume maturation doesnt equal brain volume maturation(facepalm)

 

[Reckless Turtle]

now, what does brain development mean? If the brain is still developing, it is "maturing", OBVIOUSLY

No, it obviously changes in density/shape/size in response to stimuli, which has little to nothing to do with maturation past the teens for both sexes. That's like saying that a 30-year-old isn't finished maturing because they can potentially put on additional muscle mass. Just because muscular hypertrophy continues after maturation does not mean that muscular hypertrophy is indicative of maturation.

 

[Crusile]

No if the development happens purely due to time passed/aging, it should count as maturing.

 

[Reckless Turtle]

No if the development happens purely due to time passed/aging, it should count as maturing.

Then people mature all the way until death, thus the term is meaningless. Fortunately, I already explained to you the definition of the term, so you managed to learn something new today.

 

[Primalsplit]

It's a good discussion. But in the end, genetic diversity mogs. I have always been drawn to black hair women and I am blonde.

 

[Crusile]

Then people mature all the way until death, thus the term is meaningless. Fortunately, I already explained to you the definition of the term, so you managed to learn something new today.

The recomposition of grey/white matter falls off at 25-30, though. That is a well defined end of brain maturation. There arent signficant changes in brain comp after that, aka the maturation of the brain peaks

 

[Reckless Turtle]

It's a good discussion. But in the end, genetic diversity mogs. I have always been drawn to black hair women and I am blonde.

It's a nice anecdote.

 

[Reckless Turtle]

The recomposition of grey/white matter falls off at 25-30, though. That is a well defined end of brain maturation. There arent signficant changes in brain comp after that, aka the maturation of the brain peaks

Source?

 

[Crusile]

Source?

 

[Reckless Turtle]

You and your buddy seem to have some commonalities.

Reckless Turtle is the highest iq user and hes vegan.

Alwaya destroys morons by asking for source and (they never send source) LOL