PSL vs Appeal copes EVISCERATED

[kazama]

I just love u, all greys and bluepillers should read this before saying anything

 

[Sadist]

I just love u, all greys and bluepillers should read this before saying anything

i rlly appreciate it brother
thats exactly what im saying, some may call it water and dnr, but then go on to make the exact fallacy that is spoken about in this thread. brooootal.

 

[khann]

“PSL vs Appeal” copes Eviscerated

Spoiler: Thread Song

---

For the past year or so, people have been constantly debating whether one can have high PSL, but low appeal and vice versa; if PSL & appeal are connected - or are completely separate from each other, and a lot of similar subjects. In this thread, we will dive deep into this topic, with the goal of covering as many questions, that can emerge in this debate, as possible.


First and foremost - we need to understand what exactly either of those terms mean. This may seem like water for 90% of users, but I would still insist you read through all of this, just to help you see the full picture later on.


The PSL Scale (or in this context, any other such established scale) is a measure of standalone FACIAL ATTRACTIVENESS.
It is calculated using a scoring system, which assesses four aspects: facial harmony; facial dimorphism; leanness/angularity and miscellaneous (skin/coloring/some features/etc.). The ideal ranges for all quantifiable measurements are derived from peer-reviewed research papers & commonly agreed-upon, unbiased, vast sample clusters - in order to reach the highest extent of objectivity, whilst retaining lowest amounts of human error.

Classic examples of low vs. high PSL:
View attachment 3776205 vs. View attachment 3776207​

Appeal (to a certain group of people in this context) is created through adapting to an archetype & style/niche, which relates to a corresponding group/subgroup/niche/etc.

Examples of men appealing to young + alt vs. mature + normie foids:
View attachment 3776216 vs. View attachment 3776217​

Something looks off, doesn’t it?
When people debate this (usually in tiktok comments ), they basically put facial ratings against relatability to a certain group, which is inherently incorrect either way. So here is one more important definition for you:


SMV (sex market value) is a metric used to predict one’s frequency/quality of slaying (or to be precise, unconditional female attention in general). It consists of one’s height, frame, build, appeal breadth, status, and most importantly, you guessed it - PSL.

Classic example of low vs. high SMV:
View attachment 3776229​

A more valid debate would be “PSL vs SMV”. Yet still, if PSL is a component of SMV, then it would make absolutely 0 sense to put them against each other, as one is but a part of the other.


So here is my main point: There is no such thing as “muh high PSL low appeal (SMV)”. Since PSL makes up a massive chunk of SMV regardless, your score would be relatively high whether you had everything else, or not (only with the exception extremes, such as syndromic height, etc., of course). However, you CAN have relatively low PSL with relatively high SMV, if you possess other characteristics, which contribute to SMV.

Examples of lower PSL, but with other boosts vs. higher PSL on its own:
View attachment 3776376 vs. View attachment 3776453
On the left, we have Horsemeet, and on the right - Zayn Malik.
Horsemeet is around high MTN facially, but is around 6'1, has a good frame, physique & niche.
Malik, on the other hand, is 5’8, with an average frame, physique & has a niche that is mainly directed at pop rock fans. However, in his prime, he was at the very least high CL, and some people would still call that an underrate, which I wouldn’t blame them for.
One could argue, that their status is completely different, but to be honest, they are both big enough to have a similar fame score in their niche, as it can only get so high.


​

This brings me to another point: PSL is still law in terms of Looksmaxing. I’ve heard people cope with “muh models like De Poot do have high PSL, but I don’t see foids thirsting after them; I could see Marlon slay infinitely more than him, even though he has lower PSL!”.
This, buddy boyo, is a good example of what I’ve mentioned before.
De Poot is a model. Models do weird shit. He usually wears weird shit, is skinny as shit, etc.; Yet still, it will take him infinitely less effort to surpass Marlon in SMV, than for Marlon to surpass De Poot in PSL. If they both had exactly the same height, frame, physique & everything else, except for face - De Poot would still SMV mog, obviously.


Fellas, it’s not 2023 anymore. Please get a grip. People like Bass or Zeta do indeed have high “appeal”.

Thank you for reading my thread boyos. Love.

Miring the formatting bhai

 

[khann]

62% harmony
7.5 angularity
8 features
7 dimorphism
7/10 low cl

He is around 7.7-7.9 so defo high Cl

 

[Sadist]

Miring the formatting bhai

thanks bhai

 

[acertyxx_]

“PSL vs Appeal” copes Eviscerated

Spoiler: Thread Song

---

For the past year or so, people have been constantly debating whether one can have high PSL, but low appeal and vice versa; if PSL & appeal are connected - or are completely separate from each other, and a lot of similar subjects. In this thread, we will dive deep into this topic, with the goal of covering as many questions, that can emerge in this debate, as possible.


First and foremost - we need to understand what exactly either of those terms mean. This may seem like water for 90% of users, but I would still insist you read through all of this, just to help you see the full picture later on.


The PSL Scale (or in this context, any other such established scale) is a measure of standalone FACIAL ATTRACTIVENESS.
It is calculated using a scoring system, which assesses four aspects: facial harmony; facial dimorphism; leanness/angularity and miscellaneous (skin/coloring/some features/etc.). The ideal ranges for all quantifiable measurements are derived from peer-reviewed research papers & commonly agreed-upon, unbiased, vast sample clusters - in order to reach the highest extent of objectivity, whilst retaining lowest amounts of human error.

Classic examples of low vs. high PSL:
View attachment 3776205 vs. View attachment 3776207​

Appeal (to a certain group of people in this context) is created through adapting to an archetype & style/niche, which relates to a corresponding group/subgroup/niche/etc.

Examples of men appealing to young + alt vs. mature + normie foids:
View attachment 3776216 vs. View attachment 3776217​

Something looks off, doesn’t it?
When people debate this (usually in tiktok comments ), they basically put facial ratings against relatability to a certain group, which is inherently incorrect either way. So here is one more important definition for you:


SMV (sex market value) is a metric used to predict one’s frequency/quality of slaying (or to be precise, unconditional female attention in general). It consists of one’s height, frame, build, appeal breadth, status, and most importantly, you guessed it - PSL.

Classic example of low vs. high SMV:
View attachment 3776229​

A more valid debate would be “PSL vs SMV”. Yet still, if PSL is a component of SMV, then it would make absolutely 0 sense to put them against each other, as one is but a part of the other.


So here is my main point: There is no such thing as “muh high PSL low appeal (SMV)”. Since PSL makes up a massive chunk of SMV regardless, your score would be relatively high whether you had everything else, or not (only with the exception extremes, such as syndromic height, etc., of course). However, you CAN have relatively low PSL with relatively high SMV, if you possess other characteristics, which contribute to SMV.

Examples of lower PSL, but with other boosts vs. higher PSL on its own:
View attachment 3776376 vs. View attachment 3776453
On the left, we have Horsemeet, and on the right - Zayn Malik.
Horsemeet is around high MTN facially, but is around 6'1, has a good frame, physique & niche.
Malik, on the other hand, is 5’8, with an average frame, physique & has a niche that is mainly directed at pop rock fans. However, in his prime, he was at the very least high CL, and some people would still call that an underrate, which I wouldn’t blame them for.
One could argue, that their status is completely different, but to be honest, they are both big enough to have a similar fame score in their niche, as it can only get so high.


​

This brings me to another point: PSL is still law in terms of Looksmaxing. I’ve heard people cope with “muh models like De Poot do have high PSL, but I don’t see foids thirsting after them; I could see Marlon slay infinitely more than him, even though he has lower PSL!”.
This, buddy boyo, is a good example of what I’ve mentioned before.
De Poot is a model. Models do weird shit. He usually wears weird shit, is skinny as shit, etc.; Yet still, it will take him infinitely less effort to surpass Marlon in SMV, than for Marlon to surpass De Poot in PSL. If they both had exactly the same height, frame, physique & everything else, except for face - De Poot would still SMV mog, obviously.


Fellas, it’s not 2023 anymore. Please get a grip. People like Bass or Zeta do indeed have high “appeal”.

Thank you for reading my thread boyos. Love.

good thread but i want to see your butthole to get a proper stance

 

[Sadist]

good thread but i want to see your butthole to get a proper stance

such detailed info is behind a paywall unfortunately

 

[Myth]

Depoot is a gay alien and would be out slayed by Marlon a 100x over

 

[Sadist]

Depoot is a gay alien and would be out slayed by Marlon a 100x over

molecule

 

[Myth]

View attachment 3783156
molecule

Ahh yes because that is what depoot looks like…


there is a reason his girl is ugly as fuck

 

[Sadist]

Ahh yes because that is what depoot looks like…


there is a reason his girl is ugly as fuck

clearly u didnt read/process the last part of the thread…

 

[Myth]

clearly u didnt read/process the last part of the thread…

I just wanted to shit on the gay alien fr

 

[Sadist]

If they both had exactly the same height, frame, physique & everything else, except for face - De Poot would still SMV mog, obviously.

I just wanted to shit on the gay alien fr

also de poot is chad
schizo but chad
we love de poot!!1!

 

[Deleted member 75664]

“PSL vs Appeal” copes Eviscerated

Spoiler: Thread Song

---

For the past year or so, people have been constantly debating whether one can have high PSL, but low appeal and vice versa; if PSL & appeal are connected - or are completely separate from each other, and a lot of similar subjects. In this thread, we will dive deep into this topic, with the goal of covering as many questions, that can emerge in this debate, as possible.


First and foremost - we need to understand what exactly either of those terms mean. This may seem like water for 90% of users, but I would still insist you read through all of this, just to help you see the full picture later on.


The PSL Scale (or in this context, any other such established scale) is a measure of standalone FACIAL ATTRACTIVENESS.
It is calculated using a scoring system, which assesses four aspects: facial harmony; facial dimorphism; leanness/angularity and miscellaneous (skin/coloring/some features/etc.). The ideal ranges for all quantifiable measurements are derived from peer-reviewed research papers & commonly agreed-upon, unbiased, vast sample clusters - in order to reach the highest extent of objectivity, whilst retaining lowest amounts of human error.

Classic examples of low vs. high PSL:
View attachment 3776205 vs. View attachment 3776207​

Appeal (to a certain group of people in this context) is created through adapting to an archetype & style/niche, which relates to a corresponding group/subgroup/niche/etc.

Examples of men appealing to young + alt vs. mature + normie foids:
View attachment 3776216 vs. View attachment 3776217​

Something looks off, doesn’t it?
When people debate this (usually in tiktok comments ), they basically put facial ratings against relatability to a certain group, which is inherently incorrect either way. So here is one more important definition for you:


SMV (sex market value) is a metric used to predict one’s frequency/quality of slaying (or to be precise, unconditional female attention in general). It consists of one’s height, frame, build, appeal breadth, status, and most importantly, you guessed it - PSL.

Classic example of low vs. high SMV:
View attachment 3776229​

A more valid debate would be “PSL vs SMV”. Yet still, if PSL is a component of SMV, then it would make absolutely 0 sense to put them against each other, as one is but a part of the other.


So here is my main point: There is no such thing as “muh high PSL low appeal (SMV)”. Since PSL makes up a massive chunk of SMV regardless, your score would be relatively high whether you had everything else, or not (only with the exception extremes, such as syndromic height, etc., of course). However, you CAN have relatively low PSL with relatively high SMV, if you possess other characteristics, which contribute to SMV.

Examples of lower PSL, but with other boosts vs. higher PSL on its own:
View attachment 3776376 vs. View attachment 3776453
On the left, we have Horsemeet, and on the right - Zayn Malik.
Horsemeet is around high MTN facially, but is around 6'1, has a good frame, physique & niche.
Malik, on the other hand, is 5’8, with an average frame, physique & has a niche that is mainly directed at pop rock fans. However, in his prime, he was at the very least high CL, and some people would still call that an underrate, which I wouldn’t blame them for.
One could argue, that their status is completely different, but to be honest, they are both big enough to have a similar fame score in their niche, as it can only get so high.


​

This brings me to another point: PSL is still law in terms of Looksmaxing. I’ve heard people cope with “muh models like De Poot do have high PSL, but I don’t see foids thirsting after them; I could see Marlon slay infinitely more than him, even though he has lower PSL!”.
This, buddy boyo, is a good example of what I’ve mentioned before.
De Poot is a model. Models do weird shit. He usually wears weird shit, is skinny as shit, etc.; Yet still, it will take him infinitely less effort to surpass Marlon in SMV, than for Marlon to surpass De Poot in PSL. If they both had exactly the same height, frame, physique & everything else, except for face - De Poot would still SMV mog, obviously.


Fellas, it’s not 2023 anymore. Please get a grip. People like Bass or Zeta do indeed have high “appeal”.

Thank you for reading my thread boyos. Love.

If you don’t understand that PSL and appeal are different your an idiot ,
sorry bro love but Jesus Christ you have VIP….

 

[Sadist]

If you don’t understand that PSL and appeal are different your an idiot

keep in mind we are on about tiktokcels and greys here, so this checks out
but in general, i wanted to go deep into this for utmost clarity for absolutely everyone

sorry bro love but Jesus Christ you have VIP….

i got it for being CHAD

 

[PolisCommov]

Read every molecule, but I have to say idc what anyone says De Poot's eyes make him look like he has gook admixture, and not in a peak HAPA way like Alex Schlab. Him maxxing out his physique would never change that.

 

[Sadist]

Read every molecule, but I have to say idc what anyone says De Poot's eyes make him look like he has gook admixture, and not in a peak HAPA way like Alex Schlab. Him maxxing out his physique would never change that.

i think its his excessive pfl if anything

either way,

additionally to physique, i increased his bigonial & neck widths and made his hair a tad bit denser btw
mogs hard

 

[Sadist]

muh appeal vs psl

ovER for appeal-vs-pslcels

 

[Sadist]

He is around 7.7-7.9 so defo high Cl

sounds about right, i think this is around what me and @coolio concluded

 

[loyolaxavvierretard]

De Poot pouts too much. He is on Grindr secretly

 

[Deleted member 75664]

keep in mind we are on about tiktokcels and greys here, so this checks out
but in general, i wanted to go deep into this for utmost clarity for absolutely everyone

i got it for being CHAD

 

[menas]

 

[loyolaxavvierretard]

View attachment 3785171

Open bite. Needs braces asap

 

[Sadist]

View attachment 3785171

hey thats me

 

[Sadist]

Open bite. Needs braces asap

nah, mogs

 

[loyolaxavvierretard]

nah, mogs

Low PSL but high appeal

 

[Lord Shadow]

I somewhat agree, I would say that SMV and PSL aren't that closely related 100% like I completely agree that most of the time if someone who is objectively high PSL like the de poot example if he was to grow his hair out and had the same height and frame as marlon he'd mog him all else equal that could be possible with lots of "High psl low appeal" guys but I also think that people who are low PSL but has certain features and/or good harmony would still mog a good deal of them SMV wise aswell because I do think the psl chart is bias to certain features and things that just aren't tailored towards the female gaze that you can't change and doesn't take into account harmony, that's why this whole thing is even brought it. It blows people minds here that someone recessed like micheal b jordan for example or some cutecel tiktok prettyboy can mog and get so much female attention (I've seen "MTNs" get millions of likes) but they just have the features and harmony that just works better in the real world - so I'd say it isn't really good to group terms like PSL and SMV like law but if someone is high PSL most of the time they'd probably have appeal if they tried but can't because agencies, styles etc etc but every female is different as well and will have different types so yeah in the real world stuff is different but I agree mostly with the thread

 

[Sadist]

I somewhat agree, I would say that SMV and PSL aren't that closely related 100% like I completely agree that most of the time if someone who is objectively high PSL like the de poot example if he was to grow his hair out and had the same height and frame as marlon he'd mog him all else equal that could be possible with lots of "High psl low appeal" guys but I also think that people who are low PSL but has certain features and/or good harmony would still mog a good deal of them SMV wise aswell because I do think the psl chart is bias to certain features and things that just aren't tailored towards the female gaze that you can't change and doesn't take into account harmony, that's why this whole thing is even brought it. It blows people minds here that someone recessed like micheal b jordan for example or some cutecel tiktok prettyboy can mog and get so much female attention (I've seen "MTNs" get millions of likes) but they just have the features and harmony that just works better in the real world - so I'd say it isn't really good to group terms like PSL and SMV like law but if someone is high PSL most of the time they'd probably have appeal if they tried but can't because agencies, styles etc etc but every female is different as well and will have different types so yeah in the real world stuff is different but I agree mostly with the thread

people get way too confused with this terminology ngl. as i said in the thread, psl does involve harmony, which is the largest component of it, actually. there is no inherent bias; i can agree that currently, some assessments are weighed incorrectly, but it mostly is good. the whole point of psl is to scientifically measure attractiveness based on face alone, hence my point that with high psl alone, you would instantly have very decent smv. people like de poot purposefully descend their smv, despite the high psl for things such as modeling. i can barely think of someone else with such “issues” though.

 

[danilioqqq]

1) the song is insane
2) liked the fancy text
3) expected something less watery based on your level of prep
4) bump regarldess pls post more interesting shit and format it the same way ly

 

[Lord Shadow]

people get way too confused with this terminology ngl. as i said in the thread, psl does involve harmony, which is the largest component of it, actually. there is no inherent bias; i can agree that currently, some assessments are weighed incorrectly, but it mostly is good. the whole point of psl is to scientifically measure attractiveness based on face alone, hence my point that with high psl alone, you would instantly have very decent smv. people like de poot purposefully descend their smv, despite the high psl for things such as modeling. i can barely think of someone else with such “issues” though.

hmm harmony and "scientifically measure attractiveness based on face" doesn't seem right to me, I don't think its possible to measure harmony like some try to do and with that I don't think harmony can be included in any scale since u can't really rate or quantify harmony. Like there's some people with subpar optimal measures or certain "failos" that go's so well with the face that it turns into a halo and vice versa, when you see harmony its more like a feeling but you can't really explain it there's some stuff but it's mostly just down to genetics. there's some other things I disagree with but they aren't really relevant I think we mostly agree, I guess my point would be if you're high PSL then you're most likely good looking and can have appeal if you tried but if you aren't high PSL but not sub5 and have certain features and/or good harmony you could have an insane level of SMV even if by a PSL scale you wouldnt really scale that high - I've seen this happen many many times where a "MTN" or "HTN" would have 100s of thousands or millions of likes and attention just based off they're face so it depends at lower levels imo but yeah highly attractive PSL ppl wouldn't have trouble if it came down to it

 

[Sadist]

1) the song is insane
2) liked the fancy text
3) expected something less watery based on your level of prep
4) bump regarldess pls post more interesting shit and format it the same way ly

sometimes the “watery” stuff has to be said bhai. seems like it isnt water to the current overwhelming majority of people, as this debate still goes on daily on every platform.
either way, thankyou so much for the feedback

 

[Sadist]

hmm harmony and "scientifically measure attractiveness based on face" doesn't seem right to me, I don't think its possible to measure harmony like some try to do and with that I don't think harmony can be included in any scale since u can't really rate or quantify harmony. Like there's some people with subpar optimal measures or certain "failos" that go's so well with the face that it turns into a halo and vice versa, when you see harmony its more like a feeling but you can't really explain it there's some stuff but it's mostly just down to genetics. there's some other things I disagree with but they aren't really relevant I think we mostly agree, I guess my point would be if you're high PSL then you're most likely good looking and can have appeal if you tried but if you aren't high PSL but not sub5 and have certain features and/or good harmony you could have an insane level of SMV even if by a PSL scale you wouldnt really scale that high - I've seen this happen many many times where a "MTN" or "HTN" would have 100s of thousands or millions of likes and attention just based off they're face so it depends at lower levels imo but yeah highly attractive PSL ppl wouldn't have trouble if it came down to it

nonono bhai
harmony is the most quantifiable and objective masurement ever, actually
harmony is made up of facial ratios, all of which have scientifically-established ideals, as well as assessment methods.
and my point was that a high psl guy ALREADY has good smv without anything else, whereas lower psl guys need a lot of other stuff to compensate for their lack of said psl.
also, the reason why you see mtn cutecels getting so much glaze is cause theyre either glazed by only foids of their age or younger, they have the same, relatively small niche, or because they just havent seen better

 

[Lord Shadow]

nonono bhai
harmony is the most quantifiable and objective masurement ever, actually
harmony is made up of facial ratios, all of which have scientifically-established ideals, as well as assessment methods.
and my point was that a high psl guy ALREADY has good smv without anything else, whereas lower psl guys need a lot of other stuff to compensate for their lack of said psl.
also, the reason why you see mtn cutecels getting so much glaze is cause theyre either glazed by only foids of their age or younger, they have the same, relatively small niche, or because they just havent seen better

ratios made by who and scientific by what degree? also you said that they need other stuff to compensate but what would it be besides hair (which I'd say is important for harmony for everyone) when its usually based off face? also I can't buy the last thing when you have tiktok and can see the most attractive people all the time and it could be niche for certain people but some even come out that niche and spread so that depends. for harmony though what @Seth Walsh said about it is generally what I agree most with

"Ratios yes but that explains only a small part. ES ratio is extremely important for harmony, along with the philtrum to lower lip subunit + chin ratio.

But 90%+ of harmony is completely unexplainable. It's very subjective. Like when you see someone with good harmony, you just know it. There's some sort of data phenotypically locked into the face. That's why there's a joke about extrapolating backward. The "explain Chico's harmony" thing.

I think general health indicators and indicators of high class, through the face, make up a small bit of the explanation. But it can't really be put objectively. I made a really good post about all the ratios that are involved in good harmony about a year ago. The 0.45-0.47 ES ratio, equal facial fifths and thirds, longer than normal PFL while maintaining equal thirds. Stuff like that. But anything beyond that is just PSL rubbish.

Harmony really can't be explained." also not trying to debate or anything, I just want to know and see for myself

 

[Sadist]

ratios made by who and scientific by what degree? also you said that they need other stuff to compensate but what would it be besides hair (which I'd say is important for harmony for everyone) when its usually based off face? also I can't buy the last thing when you have tiktok and can see the most attractive people all the time and it could be niche for certain people but some even come out that niche and spread so that depends. for harmony though what @Seth Walsh said about it is generally what I agree most with

"Ratios yes but that explains only a small part. ES ratio is extremely important for harmony, along with the philtrum to lower lip subunit + chin ratio.

But 90%+ of harmony is completely unexplainable. It's very subjective. Like when you see someone with good harmony, you just know it. There's some sort of data phenotypically locked into the face. That's why there's a joke about extrapolating backward. The "explain Chico's harmony" thing.

I think general health indicators and indicators of high class, through the face, make up a small bit of the explanation. But it can't really be put objectively. I made a really good post about all the ratios that are involved in good harmony about a year ago. The 0.45-0.47 ES ratio, equal facial fifths and thirds, longer than normal PFL while maintaining equal thirds. Stuff like that. But anything beyond that is just PSL rubbish.

Harmony really can't be explained." also not trying to debate or anything, I just want to know and see for myself

things you named there are all ratios. and there are way more of them than that, for each part of the face. health indicators are part of misc, and are usually assessed within a boolean system, very linearly (e.g. infraorbital vector: negative/slightly positive/positive)

i explained how ideals are found in the thread.

let me define facial harmony for you:

facial harmony is the measure of relationships of spatial arrangement of different anatomical landmarks on one’s face.

or in simple terms - ratios. ratios make up your entire face; everything else matters, but is superficial.

if anything, harmony is THE most objective thing in attractiveness assessment.

and dont worry man, debate is always good, it contributes to not only ours - but others understanding of topics, as it shows chains of reasoning behind each point.

i hope that makes sense to you.

 

[Htnn]

Water post

 

[Sadist]

Water post

it may be water to us, but the amount of times i see people get this wrong on a DAILY is insane

 

[ASCENSCI0N]

but to be honest, they are both big enough to have a similar fame score in their niche

false IMO, Zayn malik has way more popularity & status in his niche than horsemeet but the rest is good.

 

[ionlycope]

bump

 

[Htnn]

it may be water to us, but the amount of times i see people get this wrong on a DAILY is insane

Why even bothering explaining it to tiktokcels? Let them greycels stuck in their own delusions

 

[Sadist]

Why even bothering explaining it to tiktokcels? Let them greycels stuck in their own delusions

u right, but i just like putting info out there

 

[mandiblade]

let me define facial harmony for you:

facial harmony is the measure of relationships of spatial arrangement of different anatomical landmarks on one’s face.

or in simple terms - ratios. ratios make up your entire face; everything else matters, but is superficial.

if anything, harmony is THE most objective thing in attractiveness assessment.

(Not the person you were replying to)

This is still kind of an abstract definition. I am currently of the opinion that facial harmony is simply undiscovered ratios, as claimed by this thread

Harmony doesn't exist. LOOKSMAXXING PROJECT to figure out the remaining ratios for facial aesthetics [GTFIH LOOKSMAXXERS]

Harmony is a cope used by those who don't know enough about makes an aesthetically pleasing face However, we know that ratios are what matter, and we can explain to a decent degree what makes someone good looking with the ratios we already have e.g. midface, es, bizygomatic/bigonial etc. But...

looksmax.org

Basically, as someone else has said, "harmony is a cope for people that can't explain what makes someone attractive or unattractive and, as such, must resort to arbitrary vague words"

This cope has led to posts like this(even by someone as blackpilled as @thecel):

Spoiler: Example

Chin height is a meme

looksmax.org

The reason his chin looks ugly is because of this ratio

The chin-to-midface ratio(SEVERELY underrated)

This was modified from @loox's(acct deleted?) old deleted thread. People talk about the chin-to-philtrum ratio all the time, but this ratio is just as important because it also takes the nose length into account. The ideal chin-to-midface ratio is anywhere from 0.55-0.65. Like most dimorphic...

looksmax.org

(ps: everyone in that thread called it water, yet thecel was completely oblivious to it)

Chin-to-midface ratio of 75.9%. Of course it looks comical.

So, yes, I do agree that facial harmony is simply made of a bunch of ratios(as is someone's PSL rating). It's not the main, often used ratios, however. It's the never-invoked, undiscovered ones.

 

[Sadist]

(Not the person you were replying to)

This is still kind of an abstract definition. I am currently of the opinion that facial harmony is simply undiscovered ratios, as claimed by this thread

Harmony doesn't exist. LOOKSMAXXING PROJECT to figure out the remaining ratios for facial aesthetics [GTFIH LOOKSMAXXERS]

Harmony is a cope used by those who don't know enough about makes an aesthetically pleasing face However, we know that ratios are what matter, and we can explain to a decent degree what makes someone good looking with the ratios we already have e.g. midface, es, bizygomatic/bigonial etc. But...

looksmax.org

Basically, as someone else has said, "harmony is a cope for people that can't explain what makes someone attractive or unattractive and, as such, must resort to arbitrary vague words"

This cope has led to posts like this(even by someone as blackpilled as @thecel):

Spoiler: Example

Chin height is a meme

looksmax.org

The reason his chin looks ugly is because of this ratio

The chin-to-midface ratio(SEVERELY underrated)

This was modified from @loox's(acct deleted?) old deleted thread. People talk about the chin-to-philtrum ratio all the time, but this ratio is just as important because it also takes the nose length into account. The ideal chin-to-midface ratio is anywhere from 0.55-0.65. Like most dimorphic...

looksmax.org

(ps: everyone in that thread called it water, yet thecel was completely oblivious to it)

View attachment 3804670View attachment 3804671

Chin-to-midface ratio of 75.9%. Of course it looks comical.

So, yes, I do agree that facial harmony is simply made of a bunch of ratios(as is someone's PSL rating). It's not the main, often used ratios, however. It's the never-invoked, undiscovered ones.

dude

harmony is ratios only

nothing else at all

there is 0 subjectivity in facial harmony. as i said, it just measures how proportionally spaced out each part of your face is. the reason my my definition was so technical is because its not only about isolated features, but about other points on your face and where they are relative to other points on your face

the reason why people cope with this is because the word “harmony” is kinda vague itself, almost implying subjectivity, whilst in this context it doesnt at all.

this shit actually pissed me the fuck off

you can call it whatever you want, but harmony is just a name for that, and it makes total sense.

 

[mandiblade]

harmony is ratios only

nothing else at all

I agreed with you when I said:

So, yes, I do agree that facial harmony is simply made of a bunch of ratios

So..?

there is 0 subjectivity in facial harmony

I never really claimed otherwise. That was the other guy quoting Seth Walsh(I think).
I just said that people say "harmony is off" when someone can't specifically state the issue when someone's face when it looks off, either due a lack of ability(AKA ignorance) or lack of desire(not wanting to talk about it for some reason).

as i said, it just measures how proportionally spaced out each part of your face is. the reason my my definition was so technical is because its not only about isolated features, but about other points on your face and where they are relative to other points on your face

I meant that it was overcomplicated for relatively no reason. Yes, it does measure the porportionality of your facial features, but your PSL rating does that as well. I am saying that people resort to calling something harmony when their face "checks out" or looks "weird" but they can't pinpoint what is right/wrong.

Spoiler: Example

For example, @beautyiswhatwedesir claimed that marlon had "weird harmony" because he couldn't pinpoint the fact that his neck was just oversized.

https://i.looksmax.org/attachments/2025/05/4926042_1746447869660.jpeg

the reason why people cope with this is because the word “harmony” is kinda vague itself, almost implying subjectivity, whilst in this context it doesnt at all.

It doesn't imply subjectivity. I am saying that every undiscovered ratio and undiscovered raw measurement can be pushed into the "harmony" category automatically. It doesn't have anything to do with subjectivity.

this stuff actually pissed me the f off

Why on the planet did that happen? Greycel falio is real guys

you can call it whatever you want, but harmony is just a name for that, and it makes total sense.

WDYM by this? "Harmony" needs a definition, and not every definition can make "total sense." Feel free to ignore this section as it was pretty pedantic.

@thecel @Lookologist003 @pfl thoughts?

 

[Sadist]

people say "harmony is off" when someone can't specifically state the issue when someone's face when it looks off

just means they dont know what theyre talking about

ngl people who are experienced on this matter dont even just say “harmony is off” if theres one or two visible failos; they name those failos right away

Yes, it does measure the porportionality of your facial features, but your PSL rating does that as well

in the latest iteration of the modified ca system (the most widespread/advanced rating system to date) harmony makes up 40% of the rating (psl). harmony is a component of psl

undiscovered ratio and undiscovered raw measurement

elab, i dont get it

Why on the planet did that happen? Greycel falio is real guys

too many similar comments brah

"Harmony" needs a definition

facial harmony is the measure of relationships of spatial arrangement of different anatomical landmarks on one’s face.

 

[beautyiswhatwedesir]

I agreed with you when I said:

So..?


I never really claimed otherwise. That was the other guy quoting Seth Walsh(I think).
I just said that people say "harmony is off" when someone can't specifically state the issue when someone's face when it looks off, either due a lack of ability(AKA ignorance) or lack of desire(not wanting to talk about it for some reason).

I meant that it was overcomplicated for relatively no reason. Yes, it does measure the porportionality of your facial features, but your PSL rating does that as well. I am saying that people resort to calling something harmony when their face "checks out" or looks "weird" but they can't pinpoint what is right/wrong.

Spoiler: Example

For example, @beautyiswhatwedesir claimed that marlon had "weird harmony" because he couldn't pinpoint the fact that his neck was just oversized.

https://i.looksmax.org/attachments/2025/05/4926042_1746447869660.jpeg

It doesn't imply subjectivity. I am saying that every undiscovered ratio and undiscovered raw measurement can be pushed into the "harmony" category automatically. It doesn't have anything to do with subjectivity.

Why on the planet did that happen? Greycel falio is real guys

WDYM by this? "Harmony" needs a definition, and not every definition can make "total sense." Feel free to ignore this section as it was pretty pedantic.

@thecel @Lookologist003 @pfl thoughts?

about marlon, it wasnt about his thick neck no.

it was about the proportions of his eyebrows, and im not sure something was so odd about his face
probably the beard not being full?

when i see newer pictures of him he looks great

 

[mandiblade]

just means they dont know what theyre talking about

ngl people who are experienced on this matter dont even just say “harmony is off” if theres one or two visible failos; they name those failos right away

Yea that's what I was referring to. I guess the context from the other discussion made this confusing.

in the latest iteration of the modified ca system (the most widespread/advanced rating system to date) harmony makes up 40% of the rating (psl). harmony is a component of psl

I guess this is where there was a communication error. You are correct that there are analysis systems that categorize certain ratios into the "harmony" section. I was just saying that, in general and out of full-fledged rates, when harmony is invoked, it is used as a cop-out for ignorance. Great that we agreed

This was my fault for skimming over your definition of PSL in the OP. So all known ratios go to the harmony section in the CA system?

elab, i dont get it

The raw measurements part was supposed to be measurements in mm or cm instead of ratios, but I have now realized that bad raw measurements mess up ratios(who would've thought ).
The undiscovered ratios part was a reference to this post

Harmony doesn't exist. LOOKSMAXXING PROJECT to figure out the remaining ratios for facial aesthetics [GTFIH LOOKSMAXXERS]

Harmony is a cope used by those who don't know enough about makes an aesthetically pleasing face However, we know that ratios are what matter, and we can explain to a decent degree what makes someone good looking with the ratios we already have e.g. midface, es, bizygomatic/bigonial etc. But...

looksmax.org

too many similar comments brah

Sorry bout that

 

[mandiblade]

about marlon, it wasnt about his thick neck no.

it was about the proportions of his eyebrows, and im not sure something was so odd about his face
probably the beard not being full?

when i see newer pictures of him he looks great

And leanness I guess. But this is case in point lowkey

 

[flatcheck213]

“PSL vs Appeal” copes Eviscerated

Spoiler: Thread Song

---

For the past year or so, people have been constantly debating whether one can have high PSL, but low appeal and vice versa; if PSL & appeal are connected - or are completely separate from each other, and a lot of similar subjects. In this thread, we will dive deep into this topic, with the goal of covering as many questions, that can emerge in this debate, as possible.


First and foremost - we need to understand what exactly either of those terms mean. This may seem like water for 90% of users, but I would still insist you read through all of this, just to help you see the full picture later on.


The PSL Scale (or in this context, any other such established scale) is a measure of standalone FACIAL ATTRACTIVENESS.
It is calculated using a scoring system, which assesses four aspects: facial harmony; facial dimorphism; leanness/angularity and miscellaneous (skin/coloring/some features/etc.). The ideal ranges for all quantifiable measurements are derived from peer-reviewed research papers & commonly agreed-upon, unbiased, vast sample clusters - in order to reach the highest extent of objectivity, whilst retaining lowest amounts of human error.

Classic examples of low vs. high PSL:
View attachment 3776205 vs. View attachment 3776207​

Appeal (to a certain group of people in this context) is created through adapting to an archetype & style/niche, which relates to a corresponding group/subgroup/niche/etc.

Examples of men appealing to young + alt vs. mature + normie foids:
View attachment 3776216 vs. View attachment 3776217​

Something looks off, doesn’t it?
When people debate this (usually in tiktok comments ), they basically put facial ratings against relatability to a certain group, which is inherently incorrect either way. So here is one more important definition for you:


SMV (sex market value) is a metric used to predict one’s frequency/quality of slaying (or to be precise, unconditional female attention in general). It consists of one’s height, frame, build, appeal breadth, status, and most importantly, you guessed it - PSL.

Classic example of low vs. high SMV:
View attachment 3776229​

A more valid debate would be “PSL vs SMV”. Yet still, if PSL is a component of SMV, then it would make absolutely 0 sense to put them against each other, as one is but a part of the other.


So here is my main point: There is no such thing as “muh high PSL low appeal (SMV)”. Since PSL makes up a massive chunk of SMV regardless, your score would be relatively high whether you had everything else, or not (only with the exception extremes, such as syndromic height, etc., of course). However, you CAN have relatively low PSL with relatively high SMV, if you possess other characteristics, which contribute to SMV.

Examples of lower PSL, but with other boosts vs. higher PSL on its own:
View attachment 3776376 vs. View attachment 3776453
On the left, we have Horsemeet, and on the right - Zayn Malik.
Horsemeet is around high MTN facially, but is around 6'1, has a good frame, physique & niche.
Malik, on the other hand, is 5’8, with an average frame, physique & has a niche that is mainly directed at pop rock fans. However, in his prime, he was at the very least high CL, and some people would still call that an underrate, which I wouldn’t blame them for.
One could argue, that their status is completely different, but to be honest, they are both big enough to have a similar fame score in their niche, as it can only get so high.


​

This brings me to another point: PSL is still law in terms of Looksmaxing. I’ve heard people cope with “muh models like De Poot do have high PSL, but I don’t see foids thirsting after them; I could see Marlon slay infinitely more than him, even though he has lower PSL!”.
This, buddy boyo, is a good example of what I’ve mentioned before.
De Poot is a model. Models do weird shit. He usually wears weird shit, is skinny as shit, etc.; Yet still, it will take him infinitely less effort to surpass Marlon in SMV, than for Marlon to surpass De Poot in PSL. If they both had exactly the same height, frame, physique & everything else, except for face - De Poot would still SMV mog, obviously.


Fellas, it’s not 2023 anymore. Please get a grip. People like Bass or Zeta do indeed have high “appeal”.

Thank you for reading my thread boyos. Love.

People arguing with ratios, don’t understand that in that case not the ratios are wrong, but the person trying to measure it

 

[beautyiswhatwedesir]

And leanness I guess. But this is case in point lowkey

ive seen many of your posts theyre very high iq
make a insta page lol

 

[mandiblade]

they basically put facial ratings against relatability to a certain group, which is inherently incorrect either way. So here is one more important definition for you:


SMV (sex market value) is a metric used to predict one’s frequency/quality of slaying (or to be precise, unconditional female attention in general). It consists of one’s height, frame, build, appeal breadth, status, and most importantly, you guessed it - PSL.

Classic example of low vs. high SMV:

​

A more valid debate would be “PSL vs SMV”. Yet still, if PSL is a component of SMV, then it would make absolutely 0 sense to put them against each other, as one is but a part of the other.


So here is my main point: There is no such thing as “muh high PSL low appeal (SMV)”

Mirin the thread and responses, but this section made no sense to me. I agree with all the definitions btw

In list format because I don't really want to quote everything again

1. Why is it inherently incorrect to ask whether facial appeal breadth is more important than having "facial harmony; facial dimorphism; leanness/angularity and positive miscellaneous features?"
2. How is it better to put PSL against SMV than it is to compare the weight of two components of SMV?
3. WDYM "...vs appeal (SMV)?" Appeal and SMV aren't synonymous

Sorry if this was dumb