So is Pagnoni over?

[SurgeonsAreScammers]

Seems like every other post about this guy into the last year has been about some unconventional BSSO/Lefort cut botch.

I’m considering Pagnoni. I know some people will say shit like “Every surgeon botches now and again” but that’s seems like a very reductive way to just sort of avert the issue

It’s one a thing for a surgeon to have some botch complaints, it’s an entirely different thing for multiple people to report botches that stem from the same sort of foundationally shakey surgical practices.

It is strange, because in the past reports on Pagnoni have generally been positive. What has changed this past year? Is it the clientele asking for weird shit? Is Pagnoni just giving up?

I think the forum should discuss these things more. It seems like whenever the topic of botching arises, users either jump to “All surgeons botch every now and again bro” or “Surgeon XYZ is a botcher/scammer, avoid him”. There’s gotta be a middle ground people, we’re playing with our only face here.

And frankly, I’m sure Giant or some other dude would say that surgery is inherently risky, but let’s be real, like anything risky there are mitigating factors that we HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF. Roids are risky too. Let’s not act like the guy who takes a gram of tren a day is and has a heart attack on the toilet represents the risks of roiding. If Pagnoni is making weird ass BSSO cuts,THAT is the risk at hand not “surgery”

 

[zemult]

Surgeons are scammers.

 

[yussimania]

Surgeons are scammers.

some surgeons are scammers - yes at the end of the day they want your money but so does everyone else offering a service

 

[zemult]

some surgeons are scammers - yes at the end of the day they want your money but so does everyone else offering a service

I'm just reading OP's username, bro.

 

[SurgeonsAreScammers]

some surgeons are scammers - yes at the end of the day they want your money but so does everyone else offering a service

Yeah and we gotta figure out who sucks

Instead whenever this conversation comes up we get giant (who totally doesn’t have a vested interest btw) saying “everyone botches bro”

 

[yussimania]

I'm just reading OP's username, bro.

mb bro

 

[SurgeonsAreScammers]

Also I don’t even agree with “everyone botches bro” mentality. My father is a doctor who does some very involved procedures and he’s received lawsuits and complaints.

Thing is, these lawyers and complaints always came back to me sort of error that was otherwise unrelated to the task at hand or some fluke miscommunication. Never has he been sued and said “sorry bro yeah I Just fucked up surgery it happens”. It’s always 100x times more complicated. What guys like giant would have you believe is that in medicine people just fuck up and “it happens” but I really don’t agree

 

[yussimania]

Yeah and we gotta figure out who sucks

Instead whenever this conversation comes up we get giant (who totally doesn’t have a vested interest btw) saying “everyone botches bro”

Pagnoni has shit cuts and doesn't use bone grafting I've seen a few complaints on reddit. I personally would avoid. The only reason I think someone should choose him is for eye area implants since I've seen results and they're great. He also seems like a shitty guy who vapes during your consultation and cuts you off mid sentence.

Being nice, caring and empathetic goes a long way in this type of surgery where everyone probably has some form of BDD.

 

[yussimania]

 

[lurking truecel]

He is good, i know people who did 3rd and fourth revision with him from being botched by other surgeons. People just dont realize how risky jaw surgery is. All surgeons have several botches no matter what. The bone grafts and cuts is probably true, but if you go with his recommended movements and dont go insane you will be fine. The thing is some patients esp from jaw hackers etc just want the biggest possible movements and get botched because big movements is so risky

 

[xantrooper]

Pagnoni has shit cuts and doesn't use bone grafting I've seen a few complaints on reddit. I personally would avoid. The only reason I think someone should choose him is for eye area implants since I've seen results and they're great. He also seems like a shitty guy who vapes during your consultation and cuts you off mid sentence.

Being nice, caring and empathetic goes a long way in this type of surgery where everyone probably has some form of BDD.

he was nice to me in my recent consult which surprised me i was expecting the rudeness people talk about here

 

[looksseg]

I did with him a time ago, and he did a very good job aesthetically, and didn't botched. Open bite happened but it was fixed with 1.5 years invisalign. He was also very respectful and empathetic, I don't know if it changed recently

You need to be aware that is not concidence that very few surgeons in the world do Aesthetic Osteosthomy, contrary to surgeries like rhino, they are extremely risky, specially for big movements as people look for to be worth the price. If you are not willing to face this risk, then don't do it

 

[AustrianMogger]

Seems like every other post about this guy into the last year has been about some unconventional BSSO/Lefort cut botch.

I’m considering Pagnoni. I know some people will say shit like “Every surgeon botches now and again” but that’s seems like a very reductive way to just sort of avert the issue

It’s one a thing for a surgeon to have some botch complaints, it’s an entirely different thing for multiple people to report botches that stem from the same sort of foundationally shakey surgical practices.

It is strange, because in the past reports on Pagnoni have generally been positive. What has changed this past year? Is it the clientele asking for weird shit? Is Pagnoni just giving up?

I think the forum should discuss these things more. It seems like whenever the topic of botching arises, users either jump to “All surgeons botch every now and again bro” or “Surgeon XYZ is a botcher/scammer, avoid him”. There’s gotta be a middle ground people, we’re playing with our only face here.

And frankly, I’m sure Giant or some other dude would say that surgery is inherently risky, but let’s be real, like anything risky there are mitigating factors that we HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF. Roids are risky too. Let’s not act like the guy who takes a gram of tren a day is and has a heart attack on the toilet represents the risks of roiding. If Pagnoni is making weird ass BSSO cuts,THAT is the risk at hand not “surgery”

No

 

[Ascension75]

I did with him a time ago, and he did a very good job aesthetically, and didn't botched. Open bite happened but it was fixed with 1.5 years invisalign. He was also very respectful and empathetic, I don't know if it changed recently

You need to be aware that is not concidence that very few surgeons in the world do Aesthetic Osteosthomy, contrary to surgeries like rhino, they are extremely risky, specially for big movements as people look for to be worth the price. If you are not willing to face this risk, then don't do it

You needed 1.5 years to correct an issue caused by his surgery? Sounds like a botch to me

 

[LackEmpathyTherefor]

I did with him a time ago, and he did a very good job aesthetically, and didn't botched. Open bite happened but it was fixed with 1.5 years invisalign. He was also very respectful and empathetic, I don't know if it changed recently

You need to be aware that is not concidence that very few surgeons in the world do Aesthetic Osteosthomy, contrary to surgeries like rhino, they are extremely risky, specially for big movements as people look for to be worth the price. If you are not willing to face this risk, then don't do it

Every civilized country in the world has at least 20 maxfac surgeons who’ll do operations for almost only aesthetics (and do it well).
Pagnoni isn’t a 1 in a 1000 surgeon gem. Far from it

 

[looksseg]

You needed 1.5 years to correct an issue caused by his surgery? Sounds like a botch to me

For Bimax you almost always need to use braces for 2 years before the surgery, in my case was "surgery first orthodontic later"

I was already aware that I could very much need to use afterwards. Being a non-invasive braces was fine for me. Obviously, the big discrepency was fixed in the first months, while the rest was fine tuning until the bite closes completely

Guys, I don't know which fairy tale reality you live, or if you are too enchanted by surgeons marketings. Hardmaxing is no joke, specially these extreme surgeries. Even a very light surgery like rhinoplasty take months, and even up to a year to achieve a desireable result, on which you get an ugly swollen noise meanwhile

Every civilized country in the world has at least 20 maxfac surgeons who’ll do operations for almost only aesthetics (and do it well).
Pagnoni isn’t a 1 in a 1000 surgeon gem. Far from it

Not true, most countries don't have even one minimally reliable. MaxFac surgeons do it for functional reasons, not in "normal people" just wanting to get more beautiful, and specially not with the big movements people here aspire for to ascend
Otherwise, you would see countless alternatives in this forum, not the same 10

 

[tony10]

Not true, most countries don't have even one minimally reliable. MaxFac surgeons do it for functional reasons, not in "normal people" just wanting to get more beautiful, and specially not with the big movements people here aspire for to ascend
Otherwise, you would see countless alternatives in this forum, not the same 10

There's ALOT of good maxfacs out there, with very good eyes for aesthetics (not just functionality), you just have to look harder than only on .org.
The patient's implants I recently finished up is getting a very good trimax, along with the implants, with a doctor who even has a decent social media following but barely been posted on this site. And this is to not even mention all the ones who you won't even find on social media.

If you are doing good research on aesthetics from reputable threads on .org, then you will also be able to have a valuable say in your doctor's VSP. If you only trust the italian trio, then get some VSP's from them and bring it to your non-famous doctor so they can copy/tweak it. I know a few guys who went that route.
Money makes the world go around. Don't think most surgeons are not interested in your money, even if you have no severe functional issues

 

[SurgeonsAreScammers]

There's ALOT of good maxfacs out there, with very good eyes for aesthetics (not just functionality), you just have to look harder than only on .org.
The patient's implants I recently finished up is getting a very good trimax, along with the implants, with a doctor who even has a decent social media following but barely been posted on this site. And this is to not even mention all the ones who you won't even find on social media.

If you are doing good research on aesthetics from reputable threads on .org, then you will also be able to have a valuable say in your doctor's VSP. If you only trust the italian trio, then get some VSP's from them and bring it to your non-famous doctor so they can copy/tweak it. I know a few guys who went that route.
Money makes the world go around. Don't think most surgeons are not interested in your money, even if you have no severe functional issues

Perhaps times have changed, But as someone with many years of PSL expegirjce, I do believe that the “same 10” doctors are usually the best option.

I’ve made a post about it, but the doctors talked about here didn’t arise from thin air. Ramieri, Raffaini, and Pagnoni were discovered by these forums years ago because of their skill in male aesthetics.

 

[LackEmpathyTherefor]

For Bimax you almost always need to use braces for 2 years before the surgery, in my case was "surgery first orthodontic later"

I was already aware that I could very much need to use afterwards. Being a non-invasive braces was fine for me. Obviously, the big discrepency was fixed in the first months, while the rest was fine tuning until the bite closes completely

Guys, I don't know which fairy tale reality you live, or if you are too enchanted by surgeons marketings. Hardmaxing is no joke, specially these extreme surgeries. Even a very light surgery like rhinoplasty take months, and even up to a year to achieve a desireable result, on which you get an ugly swollen noise meanwhile


Not true, most countries don't have even one minimally reliable. MaxFac surgeons do it for functional reasons, not in "normal people" just wanting to get more beautiful, and specially not with the big movements people here aspire for to ascend
Otherwise, you would see countless alternatives in this forum, not the same 10

Simply not true.
I’m an example of that.
I’ve got probably one of the most agressive trimax on this forum only 2 weeks ago.

By guess who ? Well you don’t know cuz he’s a random surgeon from Paris with 1k followers on Insta.
Guess how much I paid ? 2.8k
And how much would a foreigner have paid ? Like 8k

He didn’t even talk to me about function improvement once, iam the one who brang it up.

I had my say in the aesthetic vision, and he planned it perfectly exactly like I thought it should be. And the guy literally asked me if I wanted big changes, and if I wanted to keep/improve the masculine look I had.

And it’s dozens of maxfac who do that.
Just look at this random case I found in 2 mins on a French forum, by a maxfac I didn’t even know the name from a random city:

 

[Surgerymaxxingcel]

Simply not true.
I’m an example of that.
I’ve got probably one of the most agressive trimax on this forum only 2 weeks ago.

By guess who ? Well you don’t know cuz he’s a random surgeon from Paris with 1k followers on Insta.
Guess how much I paid ? 2.8k
And how much would a foreigner have paid ? Like 8k

He didn’t even talk to me about function improvement once, iam the one who brang it up.

I had my say in the aesthetic vision, and he planned it perfectly exactly like I thought it should be. And the guy literally asked me if I wanted big changes, and if I wanted to keep/improve the masculine look I had.

And it’s dozens of maxfac who do that.
Just look at this random case I found in 2 mins on a French forum, by a maxfac I didn’t even know the name from a random city:

View attachment 4627618

Bro do you mind dropping the surgeons name pls?

 

[LackEmpathyTherefor]

Bro do you mind dropping the surgeons name pls?

Here is a list made by @ chrishell that is pretty good:

Jean-Baptiste Charrier (over charges because of international hype)
Pierre Bouletreu
Didier Ernenwein
Gonzague Deffrennes
Emmanuel Racy
Serge Ketoff
Frederic Barere
Pierre Olivi
Jacques Yachouh
Jacques Chardai
Amaury Gindre
Jean-Pascal Dujoncquoy
Thierry Loncle (will most likely overcharge cuz of international hype I think)
Jean-Christophe Lutz

Keep in mind I’ve only consulted with 2 in this list, and I’d say only half of those name I know to be relatively famous in France.

here’s a list I can recommend

 

[Surgerymaxxingcel]

Thx brother

 

[Surgerymaxxingcel]

here’s a list I can recommend

Thx brother

 

[LEFORT17]

Simply not true.
I’m an example of that.
I’ve got probably one of the most agressive trimax on this forum only 2 weeks ago.

By guess who ? Well you don’t know cuz he’s a random surgeon from Paris with 1k followers on Insta.
Guess how much I paid ? 2.8k
And how much would a foreigner have paid ? Like 8k

He didn’t even talk to me about function improvement once, iam the one who brang it up.

I had my say in the aesthetic vision, and he planned it perfectly exactly like I thought it should be. And the guy literally asked me if I wanted big changes, and if I wanted to keep/improve the masculine look I had.

And it’s dozens of maxfac who do that.
Just look at this random case I found in 2 mins on a French forum, by a maxfac I didn’t even know the name from a random city:

View attachment 4627618

what were your movements

 

[LackEmpathyTherefor]

what were your movements

18mm BSSO, 6mm LF1 advancement and around 4mm downgraft with a little bit of CCWr
Genio setback by grinding jaw bone (idk numbers) and CWr of chin

He said it’s around the max advancement the titanium plates can hold safely

 

[LEFORT17]

18mm BSSO, 6mm LF1 advancement and around 4mm downgraft with a little bit of CCWr
Genio setback by grinding jaw bone (idk numbers) and CWr of chin

He said it’s around the max advancement the titanium plates can hold safely

damnnn u got a movement chart?

 

[LackEmpathyTherefor]

damnnn u got a movement chart?

I saw the chart quickly during post op consultation

Planning doesn’t contain measurements and it differs slightly from post op.
I think especially on the chin, as he told me he and his team had a hard time removing the bone as it was very dense.

 

[Ascension75]

here’s a list I can recommend

Those French surgeons actually seem skilled and have an eye for aesthetics, not like the German kraut cel surgeons.

 

[Surgerymaxxingcel]

I saw the chart quickly during post op consultation

Planning doesn’t contain measurements and it differs slightly from post op.
I think especially on the chin, as he told me he and his team had a hard time removing the bone as it was very dense.

View attachment 4628669

Massive transformation bro. Would you mind sharing your surgeon via PM pls? I promise I won’t tell anyone. Also I'm not some mental masturbator, I’m in braces rn prepping for a bimax and kinda scared of getting them 'before and previously' type results from surgeons here in Germany.

 

[brainregeneration]

Those French surgeons actually seem skilled and have an eye for aesthetics, not like the German kraut cel surgeons.

Do you have any more insight on this?

 

[Animepilled]

I saw the chart quickly during post op consultation

Planning doesn’t contain measurements and it differs slightly from post op.
I think especially on the chin, as he told me he and his team had a hard time removing the bone as it was very dense.

View attachment 4628669

i dont get it. How can you get a downgraft but your upper teeth are still in the same position relative to the upper lip. Shouldnt downgraft give you gummy smile if your upper teeth are normal already? Do you know how this works?

 

[LackEmpathyTherefor]

i dont get it. How can you get a downgraft but your upper teeth are still in the same position relative to the upper lip. Shouldnt downgraft give you gummy smile if your upper teeth are normal already? Do you know how this works?

CCW should counteract that in theory
Also I have more teeth show now, visibly more, like a 10teeth smile almost.
But as a SFS cel my upper teeth weren’t showing enough.

 

[Animepilled]

CCW should counteract that in theory
Also I have more teeth show now, visibly more, like a 10teeth smile almost.
But as a SFS cel my upper teeth weren’t showing enough.

im only talking about vertical incisor show. Did you not have 100% vertical incisor show before surgery during a full smile?

 

[LackEmpathyTherefor]

im only talking about vertical incisor show. Did you not have 100% vertical incisor show before surgery during a full smile?

Id say like 80% of the teeth. It wasn’t the worse tho

 

[Animepilled]

Id say like 80% of the teeth. It wasn’t the worse tho

ok so you needed the downgraft. It's just that i consulted a surgeon and he told me he would do a 4mm cw rotation. And i already have a full teeth show when smiling. I asked him if it would make my smile gummy and he said no. But i dont get why it wouldnt, so trying to understand the subject better.

 

[LackEmpathyTherefor]

ok so you needed the downgraft. It's just that i consulted a surgeon and he told me he would do a 4mm cw rotation. And i already have a full teeth show when smiling. I asked him if it would make my smile gummy and he said no. But i dont get why it wouldnt, so trying to understand the subject better.

CWr with impact ion of posterior will not give more teeth show
CWr with downgraft of anterior will give more teeth show

I think. So it depends on what he does

 

[Animepilled]

CWr with impact ion of posterior will not give more teeth show
CWr with downgraft of anterior will give more teeth show

I think. So it depends on what he does

no. impaction is out of question. My lower third is on the shorter side so that's why. I guess there's no way to lenghten it other than vertical genio then.