Thoughts on M.P. in Rome for bimax and implants?

[RandomGREY]

Thoughts on him as a surgeon? There are some posts on here saying that he botched some people. He also doesn't seem to have a huge online prescence. However, there seem to be a decent amount of people that highly regard him as a surgeon on here as well.

On the post of the Italian guy who claimed he got botched by Pagnoni, someone accused him of paying someone on here to market him. And then another person responded saying that it makes sense as he appeared on here out of nowhere. @Sheyco

But the dude also seemed mentally off so don't know who to trust. He definetely didn't need bimax though so the fact that MP operated on him anyway is sus

Also considering Safi - really like his vibe but i don't believe in antiface really. Has a lot of published research and a good cv

David Bell - well known in USA, worked for Sinn.

MP charges 28k so its more appealing that Safi's 35k -45k. He also works with RSM for implant design so thats another plus.

Tagging other surgery ppl
@SixCRY
@longjohnmong
@HarrierDuBois
@SurgeryEnjoyer
@slop slinger

 

[vinn98]

For that money you could have a baby through IVF with the eggs of a stacy.

 

[RandomGREY]

For that money you could have a baby through IVF with the eggs of a stacy.

You are the most useless fucking user on this site. Begone from my thread degenerate 30 yo autist.

Btw sorry ur broke

 

[vinn98]

You are the most useless fucking user on this site. Begone from my thread degenerate 30 yo autist.

Btw sorry ur broke

And you'll still be here when you're 50.

 

[HarrierDuBois]

Safi's 35k -45k

How much did you pay @anticel?

 

[RandomGREY]

You're a womb to tomb incel, you'll still be here when you're 50.

lol u dont even know what i look like or anything about me. Fucking neanderthal. Your species is extinct. You should join them.

 

[Deleted member 18582]

Of all the people who have posted here and other websites (including Italian ones) who themselves had surgery with him for either implants or bimax or both with MP, I've come across all positive reviews and only one negative review. That negative review was @Sheyko whose thread was incorrigibly cryptic. Even on the Italian language forums he wrote in with non-sequiturs, not elaborating what went wrong, avoiding questions, otherwise producing a fever dream of an account. It didn't seem to just be a second language thing. I hope he knows that if he really did have a bad result and really was botched, the manner he was conveying his concerns and sidestepping all the other posters inquiries for more info was discrediting himself more than the surgeon. He was also the one who suggested, on that thread, that the surgeon was paying others to praise him highly here, but given the tenor of the rest of his replies that could well be a last ditch effort to discredit him.

All the other negative info I've heard was from secondhand sources, and with each they either refused to elaborate or conveniently did not remember details, which causes suspicion to arise. I was having a lengthy conversation with someone on reddit about jaw surgery, then I asked about MP, and they then said "don't go to MP, he will botch people," I then asked "how do you know" and they said "people shared things with me here on reddit" and then I asked what went wrong and asked if I could be put into contact with these people and they suddenly stopped responding. Another user I had asked about MP said that he knew a patient of his who had ghosted him when he complained about some symptoms or wanted a revision. I asked for more information but he did not elaborate any further, but nonetheless insinuated I should accept this information wholeheartedly because he "trusts this person very well." They either have the emotional intelligence of a rock and are chronically unaware of what telling someone planning to undergo surgery with him this information in such an incomplete way, or they are being actively manipulative for reasons I'll discuss below.

I've heard of some people saying he is a "yes man" and will do whatever you ask, the underlying suggestion being he would give you procedures you don't actually need to make more money. But I've talked to several people on this site who wanted implants with him but said they should not get implants.

I've heard people suggest he gives everyone the same movements regardless of whether its aesthetically viable. This is just flat out not true, comparing the movements I've been suggested to others who have gone with them, they are literally all different. Simply searching all the threads on the forum and comparing the movements people have gotten is a 3 minute way of confirming this.

Anyway, I'll take this as an opportunity to complain about something more general: This kind of chronic, casual misinformation, compulsive lying, and gatekeeping is rampant on these websites. Please observe that those who plan to undergo or otherwise become fascinated with maxillofacial surgery often have a specific kind of narcissistic personality type. It is a personality type already especially prominent among incels because of how wronged by society they feel. They know that jaw surgery is very emotionally investing for people who go into it, so these people find in jaw surgery patients a suggestible and impressionable audience that makes them feel powerful. With overblown confidence they claim to carry some kind of esoteric knowledge to draw you in and then give off the impression of dangling before you the key to your future. In this position they dispense all-knowing claims: "I hereby declare X surgeon good/bad," "I hereby declare this a bad gonial angle," "I hereby x, y, and z." Despite having at best a well-read if amateur knowledge of these topics they talk in sweeping generalizations, talk down to you and insinuate you're less intelligent than them, and refuse to elaborate as if their word is law and needs no elaboration, when they know very well that by doing all of this they are more making potential patients feel insecure about their plans rather than actually helping them succeed. Since they don't elaborate, you really can't know if they are just straight up lying.

For those of this type who are planning or already underwent surgery, this behavior often becomes a strategy for them to feel more secure in their own plan or result. Some people who have already had surgery but aren't quite 100% happy with their result, but maybe can't quite tell, might come on these forums and encourage others to get surgery the same way they did as a means of making their own self feel more secure with their result, as opposed to being fully open about what went wrong and therefore helping others not have the same mistakes. You have people piling in on threads of those posting immediate post-surgery results and posting. If you really read between the lines on these posts, you can see the kind of psychology that is at play.

A more transparent version of this kind of personality type is the kavan guy from the jaw surgery forum, or as I've heard from many people, Mirco Raffaini. He seems to be very knowledgeable and genuinely helpful, but you can pick up in the tone the underlying psychology. Simple calls for elaboration are routinely met with insults and admonishments. And no, it's not "based smart knowledge guy who gets to be that way because he's smart." It's just called being an asshole and enjoying wielding emotional power over others in a really insidious way, otherwise you would convey your knowledge in a more productive manner. It's the grown up versions of the kids in middle school who thought they were geniuses because they could complete the teacher's sentence before they finished it and hated being challenged because they construe it as an attack on their person. If you think it's based smart knowledge guy, please consult a psychoanalyst in your aréa.

Maybe that's why this behavior is so pronounced in this kind of community, since jaw surgery + this personality type (where disagreements are always construed as attacks on your person) becomes very literal in a sense. This is because disagreeing with someone's surgery plan or result, is, in the most literal way, a proxy attack on their person, their appearance, which according to the soocietal plastic surgery taboo altering so dramatically "makes you no longer you," and therefore their supposed quality of life, if according to the "blackpill" all things come down to appearance.

Now, I only spend time on these websites because its a shitposting multilayered irony videogame with fun characters and LARPs like Town of Salem or Sims 4, although I did get into the looksmaxxing stuff when I got diagnosed with sleep apnea and decided to pursue jaw surgery. I can't begin to describe how absolutely useless this website was for planning anything surgery related. The name of the surgeon I guess. Most people who might agree with this part of my post, please don't, because I probably mean you too. You have literal children playing armchair jaw surgeon who do not know how to accept when they don't know the answer to something. You have no idea who is sitting behind the other side of the screen, what motivates them to discuss jaw surgery, and what motivates them to discuss it in the way they do.

 

[anticel]

he is not the best surgeon for bimax but he does really good genios & nice implants. if you dont need lots of rotation he is a really nice option.

How much did you pay @anticel?

around that. maybe less cuz i was 1 of his 1st in his own office

 

[HarrierDuBois]

he is not the best surgeon for bimax but he does really good genios & nice implants. if you dont need lots of rotation he is a really nice option.

around that. maybe less cuz i was 1 of his 1st in his own office

Fuck he is expensive as fuck.

 

[longjohnmong]

the kavan guy from the jaw surgery forum

this dipshit told me not to get bimax

 

[Deleted member 18582]

this dipshit told me not to get bimax

3 users in pms here told me to not get bimax even though I ended up having moderate sleep apnea. They said it with 100% conviction

 

[RandomGREY]

Of all the people who have posted here and other websites (including Italian ones) who themselves had surgery with him for either implants or bimax or both with MP, I've come across all positive reviews and only one negative review. That negative review was @Sheyko whose thread was incorrigibly cryptic. Even on the Italian language forums he wrote in with non-sequiturs, not elaborating what went wrong, avoiding questions, otherwise producing a fever dream of an account. It didn't seem to just be a second language thing. I hope he knows that if he really did have a bad result and really was botched, the manner he was conveying his concerns and sidestepping all the other posters inquiries for more info was discrediting himself more than the surgeon. He was also the one who suggested, on that thread, that the surgeon was paying others to praise him highly here, but given the tenor of the rest of his replies that could well be a last ditch effort to discredit him.

All the other negative info I've heard was from secondhand sources, and with each they either refused to elaborate or conveniently did not remember details, which causes suspicion to arise. I was having a lengthy conversation with someone on reddit about jaw surgery, then I asked about MP, and they then said "don't go to MP, he will botch people," I then asked "how do you know" and they said "people shared things with me here on reddit" and then I asked what went wrong and asked if I could be put into contact with these people and they suddenly stopped responding. Another user I had asked about MP said that he knew a patient of his who had ghosted him when he complained about some symptoms or wanted a revision. I asked for more information but he did not elaborate any further, but nonetheless insinuated I should accept this information wholeheartedly because he "trusts this person very well." They either have the emotional intelligence of a rock and are chronically unaware of what telling someone planning to undergo surgery with him this information in such an incomplete way, or they are being actively manipulative for reasons I'll discuss below.

I've heard of some people saying he is a "yes man" and will do whatever you ask, the underlying suggestion being he would give you procedures you don't actually need to make more money. But I've talked to several people on this site who wanted implants with him but said they should not get implants.

I've heard people suggest he gives everyone the same movements regardless of whether its aesthetically viable. This is just flat out not true, comparing the movements I've been suggested to others who have gone with them, they are literally all different. Simply searching all the threads on the forum and comparing the movements people have gotten is a 3 minute way of confirming this.

Anyway, I'll take this as an opportunity to complain about something more general: This kind of chronic, casual misinformation, compulsive lying, and gatekeeping is rampant on these websites. Please observe that those who plan to undergo or otherwise become fascinated with maxillofacial surgery often have a specific kind of narcissistic personality type. It is a personality type already especially prominent among incels because of how wronged by society they feel. They know that jaw surgery is very emotionally investing for people who go into it, so these people find in jaw surgery patients a suggestible and impressionable audience that makes them feel powerful. With overblown confidence they claim to carry some kind of esoteric knowledge to draw you in and then give off the impression of dangling before you the key to your future. In this position they dispense all-knowing claims: "I hereby declare X surgeon good/bad," "I hereby declare this a bad gonial angle," "I hereby x, y, and z." Despite having at best a well-read if amateur knowledge of these topics they talk in sweeping generalizations, talk down to you and insinuate you're less intelligent than them, and refuse to elaborate as if their word is law and needs no elaboration, when they know very well that by doing all of this they are more making potential patients feel insecure about their plans rather than actually helping them succeed. Since they don't elaborate, you really can't know if they are just straight up lying.

For those of this type who are planning or already underwent surgery, this behavior often becomes a strategy for them to feel more secure in their own plan or result. Some people who have already had surgery but aren't quite 100% happy with their result, but maybe can't quite tell, might come on these forums and encourage others to get surgery the same way they did as a means of making their own self feel more secure with their result, as opposed to being fully open about what went wrong and therefore helping others not have the same mistakes. You have people piling in on threads of those posting immediate post-surgery results and posting. If you really read between the lines on these posts, you can see the kind of psychology that is at play.

A more transparent version of this kind of personality type is the kavan guy from the jaw surgery forum, or as I've heard from many people, Mirco Raffaini. He seems to be very knowledgeable and genuinely helpful, but you can pick up in the tone the underlying psychology. Simple calls for elaboration are routinely met with insults and admonishments. And no, it's not "based smart knowledge guy who gets to be that way because he's smart." It's just called being an asshole and enjoying wielding emotional power over others in a really insidious way, otherwise you would convey your knowledge in a more productive manner. It's the grown up versions of the kids in middle school who thought they were geniuses because they could complete the teacher's sentence before they finished it and hated being challenged because they construe it as an attack on their person. If you think it's based smart knowledge guy, please consult a psychoanalyst in your aréa.

Maybe that's why this behavior is so pronounced in this kind of community, since jaw surgery + this personality type (where disagreements are always construed as attacks on your person) becomes very literal in a sense. This is because disagreeing with someone's surgery plan or result, is, in the most literal way, a proxy attack on their person, their appearance, which according to the soocietal plastic surgery taboo altering so dramatically "makes you no longer you," and therefore their supposed quality of life, if according to the "blackpill" all things come down to appearance.

Now, I only spend time on these websites because its a shitposting multilayered irony videogame with fun characters and LARPs like Town of Salem or Sims 4, although I did get into the looksmaxxing stuff when I got diagnosed with sleep apnea and decided to pursue jaw surgery. I can't begin to describe how absolutely useless this website was for planning anything surgery related. The name of the surgeon I guess. Most people who might agree with this part of my post, please don't, because I probably mean you too. You have literal children playing armchair jaw surgeon who do not know how to accept when they don't know the answer to something. You have no idea who is sitting behind the other side of the screen, what motivates them to discuss jaw surgery, and what motivates them to discuss it in the way they do.

W response

W user

 

[RandomGREY]

Of all the people who have posted here and other websites (including Italian ones) who themselves had surgery with him for either implants or bimax or both with MP, I've come across all positive reviews and only one negative review. That negative review was @Sheyko whose thread was incorrigibly cryptic. Even on the Italian language forums he wrote in with non-sequiturs, not elaborating what went wrong, avoiding questions, otherwise producing a fever dream of an account. It didn't seem to just be a second language thing. I hope he knows that if he really did have a bad result and really was botched, the manner he was conveying his concerns and sidestepping all the other posters inquiries for more info was discrediting himself more than the surgeon. He was also the one who suggested, on that thread, that the surgeon was paying others to praise him highly here, but given the tenor of the rest of his replies that could well be a last ditch effort to discredit him.

All the other negative info I've heard was from secondhand sources, and with each they either refused to elaborate or conveniently did not remember details, which causes suspicion to arise. I was having a lengthy conversation with someone on reddit about jaw surgery, then I asked about MP, and they then said "don't go to MP, he will botch people," I then asked "how do you know" and they said "people shared things with me here on reddit" and then I asked what went wrong and asked if I could be put into contact with these people and they suddenly stopped responding. Another user I had asked about MP said that he knew a patient of his who had ghosted him when he complained about some symptoms or wanted a revision. I asked for more information but he did not elaborate any further, but nonetheless insinuated I should accept this information wholeheartedly because he "trusts this person very well." They either have the emotional intelligence of a rock and are chronically unaware of what telling someone planning to undergo surgery with him this information in such an incomplete way, or they are being actively manipulative for reasons I'll discuss below.

I've heard of some people saying he is a "yes man" and will do whatever you ask, the underlying suggestion being he would give you procedures you don't actually need to make more money. But I've talked to several people on this site who wanted implants with him but said they should not get implants.

I've heard people suggest he gives everyone the same movements regardless of whether its aesthetically viable. This is just flat out not true, comparing the movements I've been suggested to others who have gone with them, they are literally all different. Simply searching all the threads on the forum and comparing the movements people have gotten is a 3 minute way of confirming this.

Anyway, I'll take this as an opportunity to complain about something more general: This kind of chronic, casual misinformation, compulsive lying, and gatekeeping is rampant on these websites. Please observe that those who plan to undergo or otherwise become fascinated with maxillofacial surgery often have a specific kind of narcissistic personality type. It is a personality type already especially prominent among incels because of how wronged by society they feel. They know that jaw surgery is very emotionally investing for people who go into it, so these people find in jaw surgery patients a suggestible and impressionable audience that makes them feel powerful. With overblown confidence they claim to carry some kind of esoteric knowledge to draw you in and then give off the impression of dangling before you the key to your future. In this position they dispense all-knowing claims: "I hereby declare X surgeon good/bad," "I hereby declare this a bad gonial angle," "I hereby x, y, and z." Despite having at best a well-read if amateur knowledge of these topics they talk in sweeping generalizations, talk down to you and insinuate you're less intelligent than them, and refuse to elaborate as if their word is law and needs no elaboration, when they know very well that by doing all of this they are more making potential patients feel insecure about their plans rather than actually helping them succeed. Since they don't elaborate, you really can't know if they are just straight up lying.

For those of this type who are planning or already underwent surgery, this behavior often becomes a strategy for them to feel more secure in their own plan or result. Some people who have already had surgery but aren't quite 100% happy with their result, but maybe can't quite tell, might come on these forums and encourage others to get surgery the same way they did as a means of making their own self feel more secure with their result, as opposed to being fully open about what went wrong and therefore helping others not have the same mistakes. You have people piling in on threads of those posting immediate post-surgery results and posting. If you really read between the lines on these posts, you can see the kind of psychology that is at play.

A more transparent version of this kind of personality type is the kavan guy from the jaw surgery forum, or as I've heard from many people, Mirco Raffaini. He seems to be very knowledgeable and genuinely helpful, but you can pick up in the tone the underlying psychology. Simple calls for elaboration are routinely met with insults and admonishments. And no, it's not "based smart knowledge guy who gets to be that way because he's smart." It's just called being an asshole and enjoying wielding emotional power over others in a really insidious way, otherwise you would convey your knowledge in a more productive manner. It's the grown up versions of the kids in middle school who thought they were geniuses because they could complete the teacher's sentence before they finished it and hated being challenged because they construe it as an attack on their person. If you think it's based smart knowledge guy, please consult a psychoanalyst in your aréa.

Maybe that's why this behavior is so pronounced in this kind of community, since jaw surgery + this personality type (where disagreements are always construed as attacks on your person) becomes very literal in a sense. This is because disagreeing with someone's surgery plan or result, is, in the most literal way, a proxy attack on their person, their appearance, which according to the soocietal plastic surgery taboo altering so dramatically "makes you no longer you," and therefore their supposed quality of life, if according to the "blackpill" all things come down to appearance.

Now, I only spend time on these websites because its a shitposting multilayered irony videogame with fun characters and LARPs like Town of Salem or Sims 4, although I did get into the looksmaxxing stuff when I got diagnosed with sleep apnea and decided to pursue jaw surgery. I can't begin to describe how absolutely useless this website was for planning anything surgery related. The name of the surgeon I guess. Most people who might agree with this part of my post, please don't, because I probably mean you too. You have literal children playing armchair jaw surgeon who do not know how to accept when they don't know the answer to something. You have no idea who is sitting behind the other side of the screen, what motivates them to discuss jaw surgery, and what motivates them to discuss it in the way they do.

A little pushback tho - a lot of his results are .org people so I feel like this site is a majority of his buisness vs someone like safi that was super established before and now is servicing Looksmaxxers

 

[Deleted member 18582]

A little pushback tho - a lot of his results are .org people so I feel like this site is a majority of his buisness vs someone like safi that was super established before and now is servicing Looksmaxxers

Safi has only recently finished his residency in the last few years IIRC, which was at Sailer's clinic, to start his own. MP finished his medical degree in 2002 and then residency which he completed in 2007 long before these sites came about. This is on his CV on his website. In any case, I'm not meaning to defend Pagnoni specifically, just going after the culture of misinformation on this site. The only thing I think is special about him is he does peek implants simultaneously with the surgery for a good deal. His 10mm bsso won't be imbued with the holy spirit though as opposed to the heretical hands of some local aesthetically-minded maxfac performing the same movement, as this site might pass off. That's how I feel about almost every surgeon talked about here.

 

[RandomGREY]

Safi has only recently finished his residency in the last few years IIRC, which was at Sailer's clinic, to start his own. MP finished his medical degree in 2002 and then residency which he completed in 2007 long before these sites came about. This is on his CV on his website. In any case, I'm not meaning to defend Pagnoni specifically, just going after the culture of misinformation on this site. The only thing I think is special about him is he does peek implants simultaneously with the surgery for a good deal. His 10mm bsso won't be imbued with the holy spirit though as opposed to the heretical hands of some local aesthetically-minded maxfac performing the same movement, as this site might pass off. That's how I feel about almost every surgeon talked about here.

good point ig

 

[Deleted member 19766]

he is not the best surgeon for bimax but he does really good genios & nice implants. if you dont need lots of rotation he is a really nice option.

around that. maybe less cuz i was 1 of his 1st in his own office

You paid 35-45k for jaw surgery with SAFI?

 

[anticel]

You paid 35-45k for jaw surgery with SAFI?

32

 

[Deleted member 19766]

32

Worth every penny or no? I'm probably gonna need to pay 40k for him cause of ccw and rhino JFL

 

[anticel]

Worth every penny or no? I'm probably gonna need to pay 40k for him cause of ccw and rhino JFL

i hadlots of ccw but as I said I had to pay less cuz I was one of his first cases. & yes I would say so.