Why HGH is cope and will NOT work for you!!!! (HGH USERS GTFIH!!!)

A lot of People continue to believe that healthy children who lack growth hormone deficiency will experience height increases through HGH injections.

It won’t.

Why?

Let’s get into this


1. How Growth Hormone Actually Works

Human growth hormone (HGH), also called somatotropin, is a hormone that the pituitary gland, which is about the size of a pea and found at the base of your brain, makes and releases

Its main job?

Human growth hormone triggers growth in almost every tissue and organ in your body. It’s mostly known for its growth-promoting effect on cartilage and bone, especially in puberty. Cells in cartilage called chondrocytes and cells in bones called osteoblasts, receive signals from HGH to increase replication and thus allow for growth in size.


2. What the Studies ACTUALLY Show

People often cite studies claiming “HGH increases height.” Let’s clarify what these studies actually studied.

Most research involves children who are GH-deficient children who cannot produce normal levels of GH due to medical conditions. Examples:




VERY Important: These studies are on children who are medically short due to GH deficiency, and do NOT produce enough HGH not normal kids. The effect is correcting a deficiency, not surpassing genetic potential.



Some other studies explore ISS (Idiopathic Short Stature):


B-B-But ISS Children Grew Taller why can’t i?

Let’s clarify: ISS children are not short simply because of genetics. ISS is defined as short stature without a known cause, that INCLUDES GENETICS and many children diagnosed as having ISS have partial GH insensitivity (Evidence: Idiopathic short stature)

Bottom line: if you are within normal growth ranges and are not diagnosed as ISS, these studies do NOT apply to you.


3. Why HGH does NOT work for healthy normal children with PROOF

For children with normal growth hormone (GH) levels, exogenous GH administration cannot increase final adult height. Here’s why:



  • GH does not create new growth potential.
    The growth plates in long bones experience linear growth through their epiphyseal plates. The genetic code determines both number and proliferative capacity of chondrocytes present at these growth plates. GH promotes the growth of chondrocytes and their development into mature cells, yet it cannot boost these cells' genetic-based growth capacity beyond their existing limits.
  • GH cannot override genetic determinants of stature.
    Height is a polygenic trait which multiple genetic loci control its development. The treatment of GH-sufficient children with GH therapy does not affect their gene expression or the genetic skeletal structure which their genome contains.
  • Endocrine feedback loops limit excessive growth signaling.
    The GH–IGF-1 axis is tightly regulated:
    • Elevated serum IGF-1 inhibits hypothalamic GHRH secretion and stimulates somatostatin release, reducing endogenous GH production.
    • Peripheral tissues exhibit receptor-mediated resistance to supra-physiologic GH and IGF-1 concentrations, limiting further cellular proliferation.
  • Physiologic ceiling effect.
    In GH-sufficient children, endogenous GH already saturates IGF-1 production and downstream growth plate signaling. Exogenous GH cannot enhance this process; the system is operating at maximal physiological capacity. Clinical evidence and studies supports these claims: children with normal GH levels do not achieve increased adult height despite high-dose GH administration
EVIDENCE AND STUDIES ON NORMAL KIDS:

Final height after growth hormone therapy in non-growth-hormone-deficient children with short stature - PubMed

No Improvement of Adult Height in Non-growth Hormone (GH) Deficient Short Children with GH Treatment - PMC

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S002234769470192X

No Improvement of Adult Height in Non-growth Hormone (GH) Deficient Short Children with GH Treatment - PubMed



Analogy (for conceptual clarity): Imagine a plant with genetically fixed maximum height. Adequate water and nutrients allow it to reach its potential. Adding more water beyond what it can physiologically use does not make it grow taller; it may even disrupt normal growth processes.

Summary: GH in healthy, non-deficient children simply optimizes a process that is already at capacity. There is no latent or “hidden” height to unlock the endocrine system and growth plates are already functioning at their maximum biological limits.


4. Why people think it works!!!!!!

This is where most people get fooled and start to think it’s working.

HGH can TEMPORARILY increase growth rate (as seen in the studies). You grow faster for a period, but it does NOT increase final adult height. Your genetic height ceiling remains THE SAME. In the end you will grow the same without HGH.


5. What you actually get and are paying for: Side Effects

Injecting ratpiss HGH from Chinese labs is retarded and will NOT work all you are paying for are potential risks including:

  • Insulin resistance
  • Increased risk of type 2 diabetes
  • Fluid retention and edema
  • Joint pain
  • Carpal tunnel syndrome
  • Hip growth plate injury
  • Benign intracranial hypertension (severe headaches and vision changes)
  • Abnormal IGF‑1 elevations
  • Theoretical increased cancer risk due to chronic IGF‑1 stimulation
​

6. Summary

HGH only works in:

  • Documented GH deficiency
  • Select ISS cases


HGH does NOT:

  • Make normal kids taller than their genetics allow
  • Extend growth plates
  • Increase final adult height
  • Create height out of nowhere
If you do not have a diagnosed condition, you will not gain any adult height you will only get side effects.

The truth?: There is no hack around genetics. Injecting Chinese ratpiss HGH is expensive, unnecessary, and retarded.



Biology does not care about your retarded cope.
 
Last edited:
  • +1
  • Hmm...
  • Love it
Reactions: eatnsleep, Joeseminate, trueceltilldeath and 79 others
Click to expand...
topology said:
Not at all..? It's over simplified and not actually representative of the truth.


There are 3 types of bone types. It doesn't paint the full picture.


Endocrine feedback and receptor desensitization cause diminishing returns on GH/IGF-1 signaling, but they do not eliminate supraphysiologic effects, only blunts them. What you stated is very misleading to make your point sound like it has more merit than it actually does.


The point is you have many gaps in what you say. It's obvious it's from ChatGPT. You try to explain everything but fail to explain the actual logical gaps.


No, you didn't. Your argument holds no merit. No doctor would agree with you.


Gigantism proves that..?

:lul::lul::lul::lul:

The average replications done by progenitors is orders of magnitudes smaller than the genetic celling. The progenitors can replicate about 10-100x more depending on the person. The limit is NEVER things like SHOX, FGFR3, etc.

Gigantism proves this, bub. And before "The loop is ruined!!!" It doesn't matter, the loop can be bypassed via inputting more largely, the increase is also logarithmic, we wouldn't need gigantism levels to be much taller. The current limit is due to the PTHrP levels. Go and do some research.


Go ahead and link sources showing how using growth hormone to up the replication will cause them to progress faster and not get a net gain. I do not want a link to the replication limit.

You literally debunked this point below. You're using GPT and not realizing you contradict yourself.


Doesn't matter..?


The arguments have no merit. The things you stated are incorrect and/or misleading. Go ahead and debunk me.


You can..?

PTHrP can be injected near the growth plate and it would work upon it..
E2 being lowered would increase efficiency. This one is obviously the easiest to accomplish.
Vismodegib for example would decrease IHH.

The argument here isn't even to encourage that but rather to show you're wrong biologically.


How is that wrong.? Height is polygenetic like you mentioned. Hormone levels are only outside the normal range when a condition occurs. It's not like you can be between 1 unit - 100,000 units naturally.. The normal range is irrelevant. The conditions even prove my point more. It shows more/less GH will cause height differences.


Not an argument..? What I stated is the truth. Doesn't matter if it's unhealthy by any standard.


wnt/B-catenin only is able to override SOX9 assuming it has high levels for long enough.. The current limitations is the PTHrP levels. wnt/b-catenin does not cause the main transition currently. There is a clear hierarchy when talking about SOX9, you moron. It directly inhibits the job of Wnt/B-catenin. Also, you're acting like the pathway isn't easily fixable. You can make it self destruct via axins.


There was no point being made. E2 only lowers predicted height as it impacts PTHrP. SOX9 is a result of the PTHrP loop. Do you know anything about this subject..? Wnt/B-catenin makes the transcription factors within the nucleus.. SOX9 inhibits it.. See the link..? It's all connected, it's not individualized.


Gigantism is driven by excess GH acting through the GH–IGF-1 axis, which increases chondrocyte proliferation and slightly increases hypertrophic expansion at the growth plate. That is sufficient on its own to produce extreme growth, and pretending otherwise just shows how much of a moron you are.

Growth plate closure is primarily regulated by Estrogen, not GH, which is why conditions with impaired estrogen signaling continue growing despite normal or even low GH.

GH/IGF-1 does not inherently accelerate senescence, it amplifies growth velocity, while closure depends on estrogen-mediated depletion of the progenitor pool and differentiation dynamics.

Yes, feedback loops and receptor desensitization exist, but they impose diminishing returns, not a hard stop, otherwise disorders like Gigantism wouldn’t reach extreme heights.

Claiming that “all hormones/pathways must be disrupted” conflicts secondary tumor effects with the primary mechanism. Isolated GH excess is both clinically and mechanistically sufficient. This is proven.


You're overstating it. E2 modulates the GH/IGF-1 axis, it's not the depending factor. Also, this is IRRELEVANT as we're assuming it's synthetic hormones. Low E2 levels largely don't affect the chondrocyte proliferative zone receptors. Your argument doesn't have any merit. They would continue dividing and only IF E2 is too low would it cause in issue in later stages, not the proliferation. Increasing SOX9 would actually improve growth plate organization too :lul::lul::lul: It would cause more ECM to be made which causes the pre hypertrophic phase to go more smoothly. The structural issues as a result wouldn't occur until much later.



The "studies" don't administer anything to healthy children and even if they did, it wouldn't be enough...? You linked no studies showing what I was asking for..



This is factually false. Go ahead and provide your source. Growth hormone therapy is given to anyone who is short enough, you don't require a condition.



The thing that makes them turn is going down the PTHrP gradient like you said.. This literally works against your argument. You said GH makes your cells transition sooner. The genetic limits are nowhere near what natural humans are at. Therefore, increasing SOX9 would increase replication and make you taller. The structural issues would not arise until much later as I stated before more SOX9 means more ECM.



You can increase proliferation.. That means more cells.. That means more height.. The limit currently is not the genetic celling you're talking about.. That's the issue within your argument.. No argument was made for plate lifespan..

The final height would be higher as you make more cells. Follow the logic..?

Also, I'm not even sure what you're trying to get at. This debunks your whole HGH makes transitioning happens faster argument.



I'd like to make a comment specifically on this.

This is my entire point..?

More cells = more height. Nothing negative is affected.. Yikes.



SHOX, FGFR3, etc are not the celling. I don't know where you got that idea from. Gigantism proves this as it doesn't impact the genetic code..



Maybe because it debunks everything you said..?




And that can be replicated..? It would once again only blunt it but still allow you to climb levels.. Yikes.



You're using normal genetics to try and explain a synthetic hormonal approach..? :lul::lul::lul::lul::lul::lul::lul: All the loops can be bypassed, get a grip.


The proliferative stage would be optimized with SOX9.

Guess what..? SOX9 makes more ECM. ECM is what is needed for the pre hypertrophic phase.

You could easily combine it with a bone stack to manage the bone issues/terminal differentiation issue too. Not sure what argument this even is.



Gigantism shows that more IGF-1 and GH means being taller. If I can prove you can raise levels way above the normal would you concede..? You wouldn't, that's the issue. The tumor doesn't impact anything major, it would be obvious if it had.



You didn't even provide an argument. You said "Gigantism = not normal so not applied to normal kids. We also don't know what gigantism is. Growth plates aren't something you can program."

Literal GPT arguments. This is exactly what GPT pushes back on when you provide an argument to it. Get a grip, it's so obvious what you're doing.
Click to expand...
Why are you repeating what you said before :lul:
 
Zagro said:
Wow you really are a retard innit


Nigga made the thread his signature this is not life-changing information jfl let me debunk this in a thread soon
Click to expand...
I'm willing to debate u on hgh lol
 
  • +1
Reactions: Ahmed88
cometohaunted said:
I'm willing to debate u on hgh lol
Click to expand...
I've debated with him multiple times, almost every week at this point and objectively won, he thinks there's no genetic limit jfl
 
Last edited:
  • +1
Reactions: Kojo
Ahmed88 said:
I've debated with him multiple times, almost every week at this point and objectively won, he thinks there's no genetic limit jfl
Click to expand...
You haven't won anything, no one ever thinks you've won against me? Funny how people keep tagging me in response to your posts.

You don't even have basic understanding of endochondral ossification, i just started ignoring you as it's a waste of time

cometohaunted said:
I'm willing to debate u on hgh lol
Click to expand...
I'm good, not debating anyone anymore i really do not give the slightest fuck. Debating is by far the most pointless thing you could do, especially when the opposing side is a stubborn retard that strawmans every argument and really just has no idea about anything he's speaking on, to the point it becomes obvious that there is artificial intelligence allowed.

1778535536455

After seeing this, don't even try dude not worth your time and i wont waste my time either.
 
Last edited:
  • Hmm...
  • +1
Reactions: Kojo and Ahmed88
Zagro said:
You haven't won anything, no one ever thinks you've won against me? Funny how people keep tagging me in response to your posts.
Click to expand...
I objectively did, based on our previous arguments/debates. People tagged you at a maximum of 2 times maybe, due to you being a well known user with connections to mods and a botb thread etc., and it doesn't take a genius to figure out.
 
Last edited:
Zagro said:
You don't even have basic understanding of endochondral ossification, i just started ignoring you as it's a waste of time
Click to expand...
Lmao, what? What gives you that idea? If talking objectively, it's very much the opposite.
 
Ahmed88 said:
A lot of People continue to believe that healthy children who lack growth hormone deficiency will experience height increases through HGH injections.

It won’t.

Why?

Let’s get into this


1. How Growth Hormone Actually Works

Human growth hormone (HGH), also called somatotropin, is a hormone that the pituitary gland, which is about the size of a pea and found at the base of your brain, makes and releases

Its main job?

Human growth hormone triggers growth in almost every tissue and organ in your body. It’s mostly known for its growth-promoting effect on cartilage and bone, especially in puberty. Cells in cartilage called chondrocytes and cells in bones called osteoblasts, receive signals from HGH to increase replication and thus allow for growth in size.


2. What the Studies ACTUALLY Show

People often cite studies claiming “HGH increases height.” Let’s clarify what these studies actually studied.

Most research involves children who are GH-deficient children who cannot produce normal levels of GH due to medical conditions. Examples:




VERY Important: These studies are on children who are medically short due to GH deficiency, and do NOT produce enough HGH not normal kids. The effect is correcting a deficiency, not surpassing genetic potential.



Some other studies explore ISS (Idiopathic Short Stature):


B-B-But ISS Children Grew Taller why can’t i?

Let’s clarify: ISS children are not short simply because of genetics. ISS is defined as short stature without a known cause, that INCLUDES GENETICS and many children diagnosed as having ISS have partial GH insensitivity (Evidence: Idiopathic short stature)

Bottom line: if you are within normal growth ranges and are not diagnosed as ISS, these studies do NOT apply to you.


3. Why HGH does NOT work for healthy normal children with PROOF

For children with normal growth hormone (GH) levels, exogenous GH administration cannot increase final adult height. Here’s why:



  • GH does not create new growth potential.
    The growth plates in long bones experience linear growth through their epiphyseal plates. The genetic code determines both number and proliferative capacity of chondrocytes present at these growth plates. GH promotes the growth of chondrocytes and their development into mature cells, yet it cannot boost these cells' genetic-based growth capacity beyond their existing limits.
  • GH cannot override genetic determinants of stature.
    Height is a polygenic trait which multiple genetic loci control its development. The treatment of GH-sufficient children with GH therapy does not affect their gene expression or the genetic skeletal structure which their genome contains.
  • Endocrine feedback loops limit excessive growth signaling.
    The GH–IGF-1 axis is tightly regulated:
    • Elevated serum IGF-1 inhibits hypothalamic GHRH secretion and stimulates somatostatin release, reducing endogenous GH production.
    • Peripheral tissues exhibit receptor-mediated resistance to supra-physiologic GH and IGF-1 concentrations, limiting further cellular proliferation.
  • Physiologic ceiling effect.
    In GH-sufficient children, endogenous GH already saturates IGF-1 production and downstream growth plate signaling. Exogenous GH cannot enhance this process; the system is operating at maximal physiological capacity. Clinical evidence and studies supports these claims: children with normal GH levels do not achieve increased adult height despite high-dose GH administration
EVIDENCE AND STUDIES ON NORMAL KIDS:

Final height after growth hormone therapy in non-growth-hormone-deficient children with short stature - PubMed

No Improvement of Adult Height in Non-growth Hormone (GH) Deficient Short Children with GH Treatment - PMC

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S002234769470192X

No Improvement of Adult Height in Non-growth Hormone (GH) Deficient Short Children with GH Treatment - PubMed



Analogy (for conceptual clarity): Imagine a plant with genetically fixed maximum height. Adequate water and nutrients allow it to reach its potential. Adding more water beyond what it can physiologically use does not make it grow taller; it may even disrupt normal growth processes.

Summary: GH in healthy, non-deficient children simply optimizes a process that is already at capacity. There is no latent or “hidden” height to unlock the endocrine system and growth plates are already functioning at their maximum biological limits.


4. Why people think it works!!!!!!

This is where most people get fooled and start to think it’s working.

HGH can TEMPORARILY increase growth rate (as seen in the studies). You grow faster for a period, but it does NOT increase final adult height. Your genetic height ceiling remains THE SAME. In the end you will grow the same without HGH.


5. What you actually get and are paying for: Side Effects

Injecting ratpiss HGH from Chinese labs is retarded and will NOT work all you are paying for are potential risks including:

  • Insulin resistance
  • Increased risk of type 2 diabetes
  • Fluid retention and edema
  • Joint pain
  • Carpal tunnel syndrome
  • Hip growth plate injury
  • Benign intracranial hypertension (severe headaches and vision changes)
  • Abnormal IGF‑1 elevations
  • Theoretical increased cancer risk due to chronic IGF‑1 stimulation
​

6. Summary

HGH only works in:

  • Documented GH deficiency
  • Select ISS cases


HGH does NOT:

  • Make normal kids taller than their genetics allow
  • Extend growth plates
  • Increase final adult height
  • Create height out of nowhere
If you do not have a diagnosed condition, you will not gain any adult height you will only get side effects.

The truth?: There is no hack around genetics. Injecting Chinese ratpiss HGH is expensive, unnecessary, and retarded.



Biology does not care about your retarded cope.
Click to expand...
dnr i do not claim any negative energy may gandy grant my growthplates many more open years
 
  • Hmm...
Reactions: Ahmed88
Ahmed88 said:
Lmao, what? What gives you that idea? If talking objectively, it's very much the opposite.
Click to expand...
Bro you don't know what chondrocyte proliferation is, this time I'm just putting you on ignore forever :feelskek:

Funny how the mods like me but have banned me multiple times :feelskek:
 
Zagro said:
Bro you don't know what chondrocyte proliferation is, this time I'm just putting you on ignore forever :feelskek:
Click to expand...
That's third grade biology, link me the post, instead of making baseless claims?
Zagro said:
Funny how the mods like me but have banned me multiple times :feelskek:
Click to expand...
No correlation.
 
Ahmed88 said:
I've debated with him multiple times, almost every week at this point, he thinks there's no genetic limit jfl
Click to expand...
Even if there wasn't a genetic limit, I wouldn't approach the hgh meat riders from that angle.

I'm not even fully against hgh

I'd come at it from the angle that it's unprovable for hgh to give you end term height gains.

I'll formulate the premise-by-premise argument later but it'll go something along the lines of,

Can final adult height be predicted? If yes then there is a genetic limit (he can't concede to this)

If not and it's just free-flow, there is no evidence that even in ISS kids (granting that they aren't an exception to the norm of people) that they exceeded their "genetic" height it's a juxtaposition. As they were already growing regardless. (and as confirmed by saying there's no "predictable" height)

That's argument 1.

Argument 2 is about muh gigantism

Gigantism is a case where the patients have excess gh but it's not simplified to that, the negative feedback loop of somatostatin also doesn't function like how it would in regular humans.

When gh/igf1 levels seem to be too high, the pituitary gland inhibits gh secretion through somatostatin to stay in normal levels, people with these pituitary tumours don't have the actuality of this function, the hypothalamus sends out somatostatin but the gh doesn't reduce in actuality.

They'll bring up the point about how it's exogenous so it won't get inhibited by somatostatin which is true, but that wasn't the point. The point being made is that before you guys used these Exogenous hormones for the first 14-16 years of your life, you were operating within normal igf-1 levels.

Gigantism patients don't, it's chronic and to use an example Robert wadlow was literally 6'5 at 10 years old, Andre the giant was 6'3 at 12.

They practically have an entire childhoods worth of pubertal-like chondrocyte proliferation and hypertrophy whereas normal people like us get that igf-1 spike when we enter into puberty and start growing through our spurt. It's completely un-comparable. All gigantism proves is that gh in very specific cases does lead to a higher adult height, but through very diminishing means.

(The gigantism argument is definitely the most retarded out of the 2)

I sat here and typed all of this out so rep me boyos:Jupijej:

PS; I think hgh with aromatase inhibitors are more promising than this, but I'm not COMPLETELY convinced yet.
 
  • Woah
Reactions: Ahmed88
Zagro said:
I'm good, not debating anyone anymore i really do not give the slightest fuck. Debating is by far the most pointless thing you could do, especially when the opposing side is a stubborn retard that strawmans every argument and really just has no idea about anything he's speaking on, to the point it becomes obvious that there is artificial intelligence allowed.

View attachment 5044444
After seeing this, don't even try dude not worth your time and i wont waste my time either.
Click to expand...
Your interaction with ahmed has 0 correlation to me, I don't even exhaustively agree with the premise that "hgh is cope" I just think it's logically unjustifiable to be proficient.

We haven't debated neither have a strawmanned you or acting in an ignorant way, I actually want to hear the reasoning which is why the argument I've given against hgh involves questioning of the ideology the hgh users want to use to support it.

Also what does me saying to use copeplements like gluco chondroitin and msm have to do with my intellect or arguments about hgh lol? that's just completely disingenuous.

If you think ahmeds bad you're just as bad as him for using me telling someone to use supplements (That are clinically proven to help joint paint) as a metric of intelligence.

Do better honestly lol:feelsrope:
 
  • +1
Reactions: Ahmed88
cometohaunted said:
Your interaction with ahmed has 0 correlation to me, I don't even exhaustively agree with the premise that "hgh is cope" I just think it's logically unjustifiable to be proficient.

We haven't debated neither have a strawmanned you or acting in an ignorant way, I actually want to hear the reasoning which is why the argument I've given against hgh involves questioning of the ideology the hgh users want to use to support it.

Also what does me saying to use copeplements like gluco chondroitin and msm have to do with my intellect or arguments about hgh lol? that's just completely disingenuous.

If you think ahmeds bad you're just as bad as him for using me telling someone to use supplements (That are clinically proven to help joint paint) as a metric of intelligence.

Do better honestly lol:feelsrope:
Click to expand...
Fucking dumbass entitled no name nigger who're you again???

ONE OF THE MOST DELETERIOUS PATHWAYS FOR BONE GROWTH (RAR), GUESS WHAT COMPOUNDS CAUSES IT?

ISOTRETINOIN!

Directly to my ignore list if you act this fucking cocky when i literally didn't even mention you lol i was just ridiculing that ahmed donkey-fucker, i do not care, do you want me to repeat? YES HGH IS COPE! I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING! 2 YEARS OF RESEARCH+EXPERIENCE+DEBATING PROFFESIONALS ALL FOR NOTHING!

Fuck this forum and fuck you i literally don't give a fuck
 
  • Ugh..
  • +1
Reactions: Kojo and Ahmed88
Zagro said:
Fucking dumbass entitled no name nigger who're you again???
Click to expand...
Nice argument^
Zagro said:
ONE OF THE MOST DELETERIOUS PATHWAYS FOR BONE GROWTH (RAR), GUESS WHAT COMPOUNDS CAUSES IT?

ISOTRETINOIN!
Click to expand...
No conclusive study showing the actuality of this theoretical claim outside of a correlative data point^
Zagro said:
Directly to my ignore list if you act this fucking cocky when i literally didn't even mention you lol i was just ridiculing that ahmed donkey-fucker, i do not care, do you want me to repeat? YES HGH IS COPE! I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING! 2 YEARS OF RESEARCH+EXPERIENCE+DEBATING PROFFESIONALS ALL FOR NOTHING!
Click to expand...
"2 YEARS OF RESEARCH+EXPERIENCE+DEBATING PROFFESIONALS ALL FOR NOTHING!" Well yeah it would be fallacious to appeal to your claims solely based off of this, what matters are the arguments.

I'd also argue that professionals when it comes to things like this don't have the reasoning capability to make things connect. It's all empirical data which we don't have enough of to be conclusive which is my stance on hgh.

I didn't say hgh is cope, you also put your reply under my message so I assumed you were referencing me. (You still are if the reason you won't debate me are the reasons you put:Jupijej:)

Not sure how I'm being cocky either..?
Zagro said:
Fuck this forum and fuck you i literally don't give a fuck
Click to expand...
Stop raging Zagro, since you're the oh so popular man on this forum with all the knowledge I think it's better to save face over raging at the fact you can't defeat an argument.

This might be the napoleon complex:trepidation:

All jokes aside I don't see why you won't engage with me when it doesn't necessarily have to be a debate, more so questioning your stance so I can learn from the oh-so wise and knowledgeable one on an incel forum. I want to know whether hgh is something to considerably brandish out as law or not.
 
  • +1
Reactions: Ahmed88
cometohaunted said:
Nice argument^

No conclusive study showing the actuality of this theoretical claim outside of a correlative data point^

"2 YEARS OF RESEARCH+EXPERIENCE+DEBATING PROFFESIONALS ALL FOR NOTHING!" Well yeah it would be fallacious to appeal to your claims solely based off of this, what matters are the arguments.

I'd also argue that professionals when it comes to things like this don't have the reasoning capability to make things connect. It's all empirical data which we don't have enough of to be conclusive which is my stance on hgh.

I didn't say hgh is cope, you also put your reply under my message so I assumed you were referencing me. (You still are if the reason you won't debate me are the reasons you put:Jupijej:)

Not sure how I'm being cocky either..?

Stop raging Zagro, since you're the oh so popular man on this forum with all the knowledge I think it's better to save face over raging at the fact you can't defeat an argument.

This might be the napoleon complex:trepidation:

All jokes aside I don't see why you won't engage with me when it doesn't necessarily have to be a debate, more so questioning your stance so I can learn from the oh-so wise and knowledgeable one on an incel forum. I want to know whether hgh is something to considerably brandish out as law or not.
Click to expand...
"Fuck this forum and fuck you i literally don't give a fuck"

See you won the non-existing debate, congrats dude are you satisfied? Oh my god you refuted the "popular man" "with all the knowledge" with a BOTB thread and good connection to mods (?). Yes dude napoleon complex yes all of those fancy terms yes you're so right, you're the best dude you should be a researcher

The reason i wont debate you is because it's pointless, you don't know anything, and your only goal will be refuting me + add the stubbornness. Not any different than the 50+ other retards that have debated me
 
Last edited:
  • Ugh..
  • +1
Reactions: Kojo and Ahmed88
Zagro said:
"Fuck this forum and fuck you i literally don't give a fuck"

See you won the non-existing debate, congrats dude are you satisfied? Oh my god you refuted the "popular man" "with all the knowledge" with a BOTB thread and good connection to mods (?). Yes dude napoleon complex yes all of those fancy terms yes you're so right, you're the best dude you should be a researcher

The reason i wont debate you is because it's pointless, you don't know anything, and your only goal will be refuting me + add the stubbornness. Not any different than the 50+ other retards that have debated me
Click to expand...
"You don't know anything" Do u have evidence for that claim? I don't really care for the rest of your yapping about your past experiences with other people.

You think my attempt is just to debate and be snarky to say "I beat zagro!!" no it's to genuinely get insight from the oh-so-wise one on whether hgh actually works zagro.

Many people want to use hgh but don't know if it works, I think we should come to a conclusion at least. I'm simply questioning things since YOU claim to be so knowledgeable on the subject with your previous accolades, why not do more of it?

It's a forum, aren't we supposed to share our info? Lmao it just seems like you're dodging. I don't want to assume but that's what it looks like, you've done it 50 times why not 51? especially with someone who isn't even aiming to come at you in bad faith or even DISAGREE with you lololol

Also if you hate the forum and don't want to talk to people who even slightly challenge your views, https://looksmax.org/account/delete is an option.
 
  • +1
Reactions: Ahmed88
cometohaunted said:
"You don't know anything" Do u have evidence for that claim? I don't really care for the rest of your yapping about your past experiences with other people.

You think my attempt is just to debate and be snarky to say "I beat zagro!!" no it's to genuinely get insight from the oh-so-wise one on whether hgh actually works zagro.

Many people want to use hgh but don't know if it works, I think we should come to a conclusion at least. I'm simply questioning things since YOU claim to be so knowledgeable on the subject with your previous accolades, why not do more of it?

It's a forum, aren't we supposed to share our info? Lmao it just seems like you're dodging. I don't want to assume but that's what it looks like, you've done it 50 times why not 51? especially with someone who isn't even aiming to come at you in bad faith or even DISAGREE with you lololol

Also if you hate the forum and don't want to talk to people who even slightly challenge your views, https://looksmax.org/account/delete is an option.
Click to expand...
Search my name up right quick to see who's deleting their account soon? Suprise suprise it's me dumbass

It's fun in the beginning, get's tiring after 2 years thus your join date checks out with the way you're talking.

"Fuck this forum and fuck you i literally don't give a fuck" maybe stop trying, you keep trying to put me down. I mean I'm not knowledgeable and as bad as Ahmed so why would you keep on going? So you can say you refuted Zagro? Checks out

The way you talk is enough you seem like an absolute annoying cunt ugh
 
  • +1
Reactions: copecel4 and Kojo
Zagro said:
Search my name up right quick to see who's deleting their account soon? Suprise suprise it's me dumbass

It's fun in the beginning, get's tiring after 2 years thus your join date checks out with the way you're talking.

"Fuck this forum and fuck you i literally don't give a fuck" maybe stop trying, you keep trying to put me down. I mean I'm not knowledgeable and as bad as Ahmed so why would you keep on going? So you can say you refuted Zagro? Checks out

The way you talk is enough you seem like an absolute annoying cunt ugh
Click to expand...
I don't need accolades for refuting you, once again my point isnt even about refutation.

I'm literally inquiring on whether it's actually provable for hgh to have an impact on the final adult height. I never said hgh is cope and I don't think it's cope, I think it works to a degree but isn't justifiable.

It doesn't go past common sense (which isn't a logical reason)
 
  • Ugh..
Reactions: laplacist
Zagro said:
Search my name up right quick to see who's deleting their account soon? Suprise suprise it's me dumbass

It's fun in the beginning, get's tiring after 2 years thus your join date checks out with the way you're talking.

"Fuck this forum and fuck you i literally don't give a fuck" maybe stop trying, you keep trying to put me down. I mean I'm not knowledgeable and as bad as Ahmed so why would you keep on going? So you can say you refuted Zagro? Checks out

The way you talk is enough you seem like an absolute annoying cunt ugh
Click to expand...
Also you've been here for around the same time I've been here, I'd appreciate it if you repped whilst we've been talking so I'm not losing the post-rep ratio unnecessarily:Jupijej:(should be common knowledge)
 
  • +1
  • Ugh..
Reactions: Ahmed88 and laplacist
cometohaunted said:
Also you've been here for around the same time I've been here, I'd appreciate it if you repped whilst we've been talking so I'm not losing the post-rep ratio unnecessarily:Jupijej:(should be common knowledge)
Click to expand...
No have you been on the forum since 2023, no.

Your join date is 2026, you're a 2026cel "but bro i was lurking since .net" :ROFLMAO:

I wont rep a single post as i don't care, i wont debate, i wont do anything fucking bitching whining faggots like you deserve ZERO information. Would rather be seen as a retard myself and not give you info
 
  • +1
Reactions: Kojo and laplacist
cometohaunted said:
I don't need accolades for refuting you, once again my point isnt even about refutation.

I'm literally inquiring on whether it's actually provable for hgh to have an impact on the final adult height. I never said hgh is cope and I don't think it's cope, I think it works to a degree but isn't justifiable.

It doesn't go past common sense (which isn't a logical reason)
Click to expand...
You are genuinely retarded
 
  • Ugh..
  • +1
Reactions: Kojo and Ahmed88
Ahmed88 said:
A lot of People continue to believe that healthy children who lack growth hormone deficiency will experience height increases through HGH injections.

It won’t.

Why?

Let’s get into this


1. How Growth Hormone Actually Works

Human growth hormone (HGH), also called somatotropin, is a hormone that the pituitary gland, which is about the size of a pea and found at the base of your brain, makes and releases

Its main job?

Human growth hormone triggers growth in almost every tissue and organ in your body. It’s mostly known for its growth-promoting effect on cartilage and bone, especially in puberty. Cells in cartilage called chondrocytes and cells in bones called osteoblasts, receive signals from HGH to increase replication and thus allow for growth in size.


2. What the Studies ACTUALLY Show

People often cite studies claiming “HGH increases height.” Let’s clarify what these studies actually studied.

Most research involves children who are GH-deficient children who cannot produce normal levels of GH due to medical conditions. Examples:




VERY Important: These studies are on children who are medically short due to GH deficiency, and do NOT produce enough HGH not normal kids. The effect is correcting a deficiency, not surpassing genetic potential.



Some other studies explore ISS (Idiopathic Short Stature):


B-B-But ISS Children Grew Taller why can’t i?

Let’s clarify: ISS children are not short simply because of genetics. ISS is defined as short stature without a known cause, that INCLUDES GENETICS and many children diagnosed as having ISS have partial GH insensitivity (Evidence: Idiopathic short stature)

Bottom line: if you are within normal growth ranges and are not diagnosed as ISS, these studies do NOT apply to you.


3. Why HGH does NOT work for healthy normal children with PROOF

For children with normal growth hormone (GH) levels, exogenous GH administration cannot increase final adult height. Here’s why:



  • GH does not create new growth potential.
    The growth plates in long bones experience linear growth through their epiphyseal plates. The genetic code determines both number and proliferative capacity of chondrocytes present at these growth plates. GH promotes the growth of chondrocytes and their development into mature cells, yet it cannot boost these cells' genetic-based growth capacity beyond their existing limits.
  • GH cannot override genetic determinants of stature.
    Height is a polygenic trait which multiple genetic loci control its development. The treatment of GH-sufficient children with GH therapy does not affect their gene expression or the genetic skeletal structure which their genome contains.
  • Endocrine feedback loops limit excessive growth signaling.
    The GH–IGF-1 axis is tightly regulated:
    • Elevated serum IGF-1 inhibits hypothalamic GHRH secretion and stimulates somatostatin release, reducing endogenous GH production.
    • Peripheral tissues exhibit receptor-mediated resistance to supra-physiologic GH and IGF-1 concentrations, limiting further cellular proliferation.
  • Physiologic ceiling effect.
    In GH-sufficient children, endogenous GH already saturates IGF-1 production and downstream growth plate signaling. Exogenous GH cannot enhance this process; the system is operating at maximal physiological capacity. Clinical evidence and studies supports these claims: children with normal GH levels do not achieve increased adult height despite high-dose GH administration
EVIDENCE AND STUDIES ON NORMAL KIDS:

Final height after growth hormone therapy in non-growth-hormone-deficient children with short stature - PubMed

No Improvement of Adult Height in Non-growth Hormone (GH) Deficient Short Children with GH Treatment - PMC

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S002234769470192X

No Improvement of Adult Height in Non-growth Hormone (GH) Deficient Short Children with GH Treatment - PubMed



Analogy (for conceptual clarity): Imagine a plant with genetically fixed maximum height. Adequate water and nutrients allow it to reach its potential. Adding more water beyond what it can physiologically use does not make it grow taller; it may even disrupt normal growth processes.

Summary: GH in healthy, non-deficient children simply optimizes a process that is already at capacity. There is no latent or “hidden” height to unlock the endocrine system and growth plates are already functioning at their maximum biological limits.


4. Why people think it works!!!!!!

This is where most people get fooled and start to think it’s working.

HGH can TEMPORARILY increase growth rate (as seen in the studies). You grow faster for a period, but it does NOT increase final adult height. Your genetic height ceiling remains THE SAME. In the end you will grow the same without HGH.


5. What you actually get and are paying for: Side Effects

Injecting ratpiss HGH from Chinese labs is retarded and will NOT work all you are paying for are potential risks including:

  • Insulin resistance
  • Increased risk of type 2 diabetes
  • Fluid retention and edema
  • Joint pain
  • Carpal tunnel syndrome
  • Hip growth plate injury
  • Benign intracranial hypertension (severe headaches and vision changes)
  • Abnormal IGF‑1 elevations
  • Theoretical increased cancer risk due to chronic IGF‑1 stimulation
​

6. Summary

HGH only works in:

  • Documented GH deficiency
  • Select ISS cases


HGH does NOT:

  • Make normal kids taller than their genetics allow
  • Extend growth plates
  • Increase final adult height
  • Create height out of nowhere
If you do not have a diagnosed condition, you will not gain any adult height you will only get side effects.

The truth?: There is no hack around genetics. Injecting Chinese ratpiss HGH is expensive, unnecessary, and retarded.



Biology does not care about your retarded cope.
Click to expand...
Still good to use though
 
Retardism is vary common
 
  • WTF
Reactions: Ahmed88
laplacist said:
looksmax.org

@Ahmed88 | Intellectually Disabled or Trolling?

Introduction So I've recently came up against this retarded and pseudo-intellectual subhuman called; @Ahmed88, whom has spread copious amounts of misinformation so I have to put him back in his place, completely fueled by ChatGPT to the brim and hasn't read a singular paper in in his life he...
looksmax.org looksmax.org
Click to expand...
Read the whole thread retard, after a while he chickened out, you're welcome to resume his place and debate me tho.
 
  • JFL
Reactions: laplacist
Zagro said:
No have you been on the forum since 2023, no.

Your join date is 2026, you're a 2026cel "but bro i was lurking since .net" :ROFLMAO:

I wont rep a single post as i don't care, i wont debate, i wont do anything fucking bitching whining faggots like you deserve ZERO information. Would rather be seen as a retard myself and not give you info
Click to expand...
"Whining" I think you're the one whining here:lul::lul:

Also I haven't been here since 2023, I've been here since 2024. Your join date says 2024 so that's what I assumed.

If you engage with me I'll give you my old acc name lol
 
  • +1
Reactions: Ahmed88
  • Love it
  • Ugh..
Reactions: laplacist and Ahmed88
Also @Ahmed88 did you end up reading that argument I dropped?
 
  • Love it
Reactions: Ahmed88
laplacist said:
You are genuinely retarded
Click to expand...
Ima take copious amount of amphetamine and caffeine tomorrow and make a thread tomorrow, one final one to refute any remaining retard and then will self-ban and kill myself or something dude cause people like this literally make me lose hope and disgust me

I just scrolled up and found fucking gold ahahshshhs I’m excited for tomorrow literally 50-100 points i can refute with full proof
 
  • +1
  • So Sad
Reactions: copecel4, laplacist, Kojo and 1 other person
Zagro said:
Ima take copious amount of amphetamine and caffeine tomorrow and make a thread tomorrow, one final one to refute any remaining retard and then will self-ban and kill myself or something dude cause people like this literally make me lose hope and disgust me

I just scrolled up and found fucking gold ahahshshhs I’m excited for tomorrow literally 50-100 points i can refute with full proof
Click to expand...
Can't wait to see a thread of which none of the points will fire at my arguments.

But go ahead!:)
 
  • +1
  • Ugh..
Reactions: copecel4 and laplacist
cometohaunted said:
Can't wait to see a thread of which none of the points will fire at my arguments.

But go ahead!:)
Click to expand...
Once again no one is talking about you dude, should be obvious as you haven’t even made any arguments yet.

Instead of ripping your asshole here to try and get ME to explain things for you, maybe explain why it wont work and your argument against it so i can refute it tomorrow with ease
 
  • +1
Reactions: Kojo and copecel4
cometohaunted said:
Also @Ahmed88 did you end up reading that argument I dropped?
Click to expand...

cometohaunted said:
Even if there wasn't a genetic limit, I wouldn't approach the hgh meat riders from that angle.

I'm not even fully against hgh

I'd come at it from the angle that it's unprovable for hgh to give you end term height gains.

I'll formulate the premise-by-premise argument later but it'll go something along the lines of,

Can final adult height be predicted? If yes then there is a genetic limit (he can't concede to this)

If not and it's just free-flow, there is no evidence that even in ISS kids (granting that they aren't an exception to the norm of people) that they exceeded their "genetic" height it's a juxtaposition. As they were already growing regardless. (and as confirmed by saying there's no "predictable" height)

That's argument 1.

Argument 2 is about muh gigantism

Gigantism is a case where the patients have excess gh but it's not simplified to that, the negative feedback loop of somatostatin also doesn't function like how it would in regular humans.

When gh/igf1 levels seem to be too high, the pituitary gland inhibits gh secretion through somatostatin to stay in normal levels, people with these pituitary tumours don't have the actuality of this function, the hypothalamus sends out somatostatin but the gh doesn't reduce in actuality.

They'll bring up the point about how it's exogenous so it won't get inhibited by somatostatin which is true, but that wasn't the point. The point being made is that before you guys used these Exogenous hormones for the first 14-16 years of your life, you were operating within normal igf-1 levels.

Gigantism patients don't, it's chronic and to use an example Robert wadlow was literally 6'5 at 10 years old, Andre the giant was 6'3 at 12.

They practically have an entire childhoods worth of pubertal-like chondrocyte proliferation and hypertrophy whereas normal people like us get that igf-1 spike when we enter into puberty and start growing through our spurt. It's completely un-comparable. All gigantism proves is that gh in very specific cases does lead to a higher adult height, but through very diminishing means.

(The gigantism argument is definitely the most retarded out of the 2)

I sat here and typed all of this out so rep me boyos:Jupijej:

PS; I think hgh with aromatase inhibitors are more promising than this, but I'm not COMPLETELY convinced yet.
Click to expand...
This?

Yeah i did, and i agree with most parts, argument 1 could get converted in 2 seperate arguments, but the gigatism part is amazing, combining that with more arguments like gigantism not being fully researched just debunks the whole ,,gigantism=6iu hgh=make me tall'' argument, which was retarded in the first place, the hgh+ai argument is interesting too, but i still mostly believe it's cope, and has even severly terrible roi then hgh, but def mirin will use argument 2 definitely :love:
 
  • Love it
Reactions: Kojo
cometohaunted said:
Many people want to use hgh but don't know if it works
Click to expand...
idk if this adds anything but ive been on a supraphysiological dose of hgh (22 ius) for the past 4 months and ive grown about 5 cm. i just turned 15 two weeks ago.
im currently 5'10 with a 5'7-8 dad and a 5'3-4 mom
i was always malnourished throughout my puberty years yk skinny and didnt eat enough food overall so im tryna make up for it
i also wanna add that im running a bunch of other compounds alongside hgh so it probably didn't do all the work but it definitely isnt cope at supraphysiological doses
 
  • So Sad
  • +1
Reactions: Kojo and Ahmed88
Zagro said:
Ima take copious amount of amphetamine and caffeine tomorrow and make a thread tomorrow, one final one to refute any remaining retard and then will self-ban and kill myself or something dude cause people like this literally make me lose hope and disgust me

I just scrolled up and found fucking gold ahahshshhs I’m excited for tomorrow literally 50-100 points i can refute with full proof
Click to expand...
Nice, i'm getting a new laptop this week, so i might be able to debunk your thread (in an actual thread)

If you mean topology, i've already refuted him, multiple times, but good luck
 
  • +1
Reactions: Zagro
Ahmed88 said:
Nice, i'm getting a new laptop this week, so i might be able to debunk your thread (in an actual thread)

If you mean topology, i've already refuted him, multiple times, but good luck
Click to expand...
Dude fuck that nigga topology may Allah SWT help his parents and make their life easier, pray together with me akhi

I would send that shit out for adoption
 
  • JFL
Reactions: Genio and Ahmed88
wtf is sad about my post nigga @Ahmed88
 
  • So Sad
Reactions: Ahmed88
Zagro said:
Dude fuck that nigga topology may Allah SWT help his parents and make their life easier, pray together with me akhi

I would send that shit out for adoption
Click to expand...
Didn't know you're muslim, but he's the only here who actually had somewhat decent arguments, but gosh i hate that fucking larping croatian, atleast we agree on something
 
  • JFL
  • So Sad
Reactions: Zagro, copecel4 and laplacist
Ahmed88 said:
Didn't know you're muslim, but he's the only here who actually had somewhat decent arguments, but gosh i hate that fucking larping croatian, atleast we agree on something
Click to expand...
He's not Muslim you fucking goblin please learn when somebody is mocking :lul:
 
  • JFL
Reactions: copecel4
Ahmed88 said:
Didn't know you're muslim, but he's the only here who actually had somewhat decent arguments, but gosh i hate that fucking larping croatian, atleast we agree on something
Click to expand...
I’m born muslim but not that religious perse, that’s something i would spend my time learning later
 
  • Woah
Reactions: Ahmed88
Zagro said:
Once again no one is talking about you dude, should be obvious as you haven’t even made any arguments yet.

Instead of ripping your asshole here to try and get ME to explain things for you, maybe explain why it wont work and your argument against it so i can refute it tomorrow with ease
Click to expand...
Well for one you're strawmanning, I never conclusively said it won't work. I've said multiple times that I don't even think we can conclusively say whether it does/doesn't work.

I've also dropped a pseudo version of my argument here
cometohaunted said:
Even if there wasn't a genetic limit, I wouldn't approach the hgh meat riders from that angle.

I'm not even fully against hgh

I'd come at it from the angle that it's unprovable for hgh to give you end term height gains.

I'll formulate the premise-by-premise argument later but it'll go something along the lines of,

Can final adult height be predicted? If yes then there is a genetic limit (he can't concede to this)

If not and it's just free-flow, there is no evidence that even in ISS kids (granting that they aren't an exception to the norm of people) that they exceeded their "genetic" height it's a juxtaposition. As they were already growing regardless. (and as confirmed by saying there's no "predictable" height)

That's argument 1.

Argument 2 is about muh gigantism

Gigantism is a case where the patients have excess gh but it's not simplified to that, the negative feedback loop of somatostatin also doesn't function like how it would in regular humans.

When gh/igf1 levels seem to be too high, the pituitary gland inhibits gh secretion through somatostatin to stay in normal levels, people with these pituitary tumours don't have the actuality of this function, the hypothalamus sends out somatostatin but the gh doesn't reduce in actuality.

They'll bring up the point about how it's exogenous so it won't get inhibited by somatostatin which is true, but that wasn't the point. The point being made is that before you guys used these Exogenous hormones for the first 14-16 years of your life, you were operating within normal igf-1 levels.

Gigantism patients don't, it's chronic and to use an example Robert wadlow was literally 6'5 at 10 years old, Andre the giant was 6'3 at 12.

They practically have an entire childhoods worth of pubertal-like chondrocyte proliferation and hypertrophy whereas normal people like us get that igf-1 spike when we enter into puberty and start growing through our spurt. It's completely un-comparable. All gigantism proves is that gh in very specific cases does lead to a higher adult height, but through very diminishing means.

(The gigantism argument is definitely the most retarded out of the 2)

I sat here and typed all of this out so rep me boyos:Jupijej:

PS; I think hgh with aromatase inhibitors are more promising than this, but I'm not COMPLETELY convinced yet.
Click to expand...
 
  • Woah
Reactions: Ahmed88
Ahmed88 said:
This?

Yeah i did, and i agree with most parts, argument 1 could get converted in 2 seperate arguments, but the gigatism part is amazing, combining that with more arguments like gigantism not being fully researched just debunks the whole ,,gigantism=6iu hgh=make me tall'' argument, which was retarded in the first place, the hgh+ai argument is interesting too, but i still mostly believe it's cope, and has even severly terrible roi then hgh, but def mirin will use argument 2 definitely :love:
Click to expand...
Good lookin!
 
  • Love it
Reactions: Ahmed88
copecel4 said:
idk if this adds anything but ive been on a supraphysiological dose of hgh (22 ius) for the past 4 months and ive grown about 5 cm. i just turned 15 two weeks ago.
im currently 5'10 with a 5'7-8 dad and a 5'3-4 mom
i was always malnourished throughout my puberty years yk skinny and didnt eat enough food overall so im tryna make up for it
i also wanna add that im running a bunch of other compounds alongside hgh so it probably didn't do all the work but it definitely isnt cope at supraphysiological doses
Click to expand...
Interesting, I'm looking forward to seeing where you bottom out.

You started hgh a lot earlier than most do lol and that's a really high dosage:trepidation:
 
  • +1
  • So Sad
Reactions: copecel4 and Ahmed88
  • JFL
Reactions: laplacist and Ahmed88
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

jrkhz
Hgh
Replies
0
Views
30
jrkhz
jrkhz
Hopeless Subhuman
Is HGH worth it?
Replies
5
Views
58
jewing
jewing
cristianohexum
Hgh
Replies
5
Views
70
Gabriel©
Gabriel©
N
  • Article
Guide HGH
Replies
11
Views
124
arx
arx
T
Looksmax Is this a trustable source for hgh
Replies
6
Views
74
Admistrative
Admistrative

Users who are viewing this thread

  • mendeds
  • ... and 1 more.
    • Total: 5 (Looksmaxers: 2, Bluepillers: 3)
    Back
    Top
    Sponsored
    Stake.us
    America's #1 Social Casino
    Slots, Poker & More
    Join Now →