Why is jaw surgery so cheap in France? What's the catch?

[hassan12]

What's your main motivation for seeking surgery from a cheaper surgeon? If it's because you are a povertycel then that is a terrible idea.

Well aren’t we all povertycel. And why wouldn’t I choose to spend 6-8k on French surgeons who have great reputation than spending 20k on some famous surgeons like Ramieri.

 

[Pakicel]

Well aren’t we all povertycel. And why wouldn’t I choose to spend 6-8k on French surgeons who have great reputation than spending 20k on some famous surgeons like Ramieri.

I mean, there probably are cheaper surgeons out there who can give you a good outcome. But cost should not be the main factor outside of not paying a ridiculous price. I have researched these turkish surgeons btw. Contacted some them as well. Most were shady af. Like Altan Varol has a fuckton of lawsuits against him. Celal Candirli and Kemal Ugurlu have tons of horror stories on reddit and in fb groups. Samet Kundakcioglu just seemed low IQ. Erol is prolly the best out of all them but is not the best for short faces and he isn't very aesthetically minded. Some of them are not that much cheaper than rarmieri. Like I heard Alton Varol charges 16k USD for bimax while the 20k euros ramieri charges includes malar implants as well. Regular bimax is 15k.

Honestly, I would be looking into french surgeons if you are that concerned about cost. Most are not blackpilled so you might not get the plan that would ascend you the most. But if you can't shell out 20k or won't be able to save that much quickly enough, you should focus on ascending in your career and moneymaxxing.

 

[hassan12]

I mean, there probably are cheaper surgeons out there who can give you a good outcome. But cost should not be the main factor outside of not paying a ridiculous price. I have researched these turkish surgeons btw. Contacted some them as well. Most were shady af. Like Altan Varol has a fuckton of lawsuits against him. Celal Candirli and Kemal Ugurlu have tons of horror stories on reddit and in fb groups. Samet Kundakcioglu just seemed low IQ. Erol is prolly the best out of all them but is not the best for short faces and he isn't very aesthetically minded. Some of them are not that much cheaper than rarmieri. Like I heard Alton Varol charges 16k USD for bimax while the 20k euros ramieri charges includes malar implants as well. Regular bimax is 15k.

Honestly, I would be looking into french surgeons if you are that concerned about cost. Most are not blackpilled so you might not get the plan that would ascend you the most. But if you can't shell out 20k or won't be able to save that much quickly enough, you should focus on ascending in your career and moneymaxxing.

No I completely I agree with you 100%. You don’t wanna cheap out on smth this serious. For me It’s important to balance potential outcomes and price. There are certain surgeons who are good but I cannot afford like Ramieri. There are some that have some horror reviews like Alfaro. Surgeons like Charrier tho charge quite cheap prices and yet have really good reviews. And similarly Erol Cansiz who you have mentioned quoted me 6k and I have yet not seen one bad review of him. Some of his results on instagram are also pretty decent. That’s why im considering these two as of now but let’s see if I can get better options.

 

[hassan12]

I mean, there probably are cheaper surgeons out there who can give you a good outcome. But cost should not be the main factor outside of not paying a ridiculous price. I have researched these turkish surgeons btw. Contacted some them as well. Most were shady af. Like Altan Varol has a fuckton of lawsuits against him. Celal Candirli and Kemal Ugurlu have tons of horror stories on reddit and in fb groups. Samet Kundakcioglu just seemed low IQ. Erol is prolly the best out of all them but is not the best for short faces and he isn't very aesthetically minded. Some of them are not that much cheaper than rarmieri. Like I heard Alton Varol charges 16k USD for bimax while the 20k euros ramieri charges includes malar implants as well. Regular bimax is 15k.

Honestly, I would be looking into french surgeons if you are that concerned about cost. Most are not blackpilled so you might not get the plan that would ascend you the most. But if you can't shell out 20k or won't be able to save that much quickly enough, you should focus on ascending in your career and moneymaxxing.

If I can get the desired measurements/movements planned by a blackpilled surgeon cant the non blackpilled french surgeons implement it?

 

[Pakicel]

If I can get the desired measurements/movements planned by a blackpilled surgeon cant the non blackpilled french surgeons implement it?

If they are using custom plates then yes. But not all surgeons will give you that much freedom even if they do use custom plates. In fact, many use regular plates so during the surgery they will use their discretion and you might end up with completely different movements than planned.

 

[Pakicel]

No I completely I agree with you 100%. You don’t wanna cheap out on smth this serious. For me It’s important to balance potential outcomes and price. There are certain surgeons who are good but I cannot afford like Ramieri. There are some that have some horror reviews like Alfaro. Surgeons like Charrier tho charge quite cheap prices and yet have really good reviews. And similarly Erol Cansiz who you have mentioned quoted me 6k and I have yet not seen one bad review of him. Some of his results on instagram are also pretty decent. That’s why im considering these two as of now but let’s see if I can get better options.

If you can't afford to spend 20k on surgery, you need to moneymax. What if you get botched? Imo, you should aim to have roughly double the price saved just in case you need another surgery.

Also, most of these surgeons have entire teams to keep unhappy patients quiet. If you dig deep enough, you will find those bad reviews.

 

[Pakicel]

If I can get the desired measurements/movements planned by a blackpilled surgeon cant the non blackpilled french surgeons implement it?

Actually, I just saw your scan in this thread. You have a steep occlusal plane and downswung jaws. I think erol would be fine for your case as you don't need a downgraft or anything like that. What he will probably do is give you 3-4 mm at the ANS point with lots of CCW so that you get lots of advancement for your lower jaw. With a genio on top. Tbh your case is bad enough that any halfway decent surgeon could improve you.

 

[savemefromthisfate]

Lol. I know you need a revision but that is way too high.

Nigga probably figured out I had money and made up a random number.

 

[Gaussian]

Nigga probably figured out I had money and made up a random number.

Hello bhai, saw your post-op Bimax thread, and was wondering if you could dm the name of the cali surgeon you found?

 

[savemefromthisfate]

Hello bhai, saw your post-op Bimax thread, and was wondering if you could dm the name of the cali surgeon you found?

David Bell.

 

[helpmeascend]

i need ccw rotation and mandibular advancement. Im quite recessed. Would they give me good movements?

I saw someone on Reddit recommend these french surgeons feel free to research : Dr. Loncle, Pr. Charrier, Thierry Loncle, Solymon, Dr. Steve, Dr. Solyom, Dr. Davrou, Dr. Deffrennes Dominique, Dr. Gindre in Annecy, Dr. Benoit Philippe

 

[hassan12]

I saw someone on Reddit recommend these french surgeons feel free to research : Dr. Loncle, Pr. Charrier, Thierry Loncle, Solymon, Dr. Steve, Dr. Solyom, Dr. Davrou, Dr. Deffrennes Dominique, Dr. Gindre in Annecy, Dr. Benoit Philippe

Apparently they're expensive for foreigners. I talked with Dr. Davrou and he was really nice and all but he quoted me at 17k without the French insurance.

 

[Eren]

this was a french surgeon:

https://www.reddit.com/gallery/116a5cc

there are threads here discussing french surgeons. you just have to do a little digging. here:

good jaw surgeons in France ?

who has aesthetic mindedness and will do the djs in france ? any leads ?

looksmax.org

Looks like shit, textbook surgery frauding without addressing the root cause (he has still a recessed posture + you see that he got surgery from a mile away)
French surgerons are trash (for jaw surgery)
I’m French

 

[longjohnmong]

Looks like shit, textbook surgery frauding without addressing the root cause (he has still a recessed posture + you see that he got surgery from a mile away)
French surgerons are trash (for jaw surgery)
I’m French

That was the best result he could have hoped for which addressed the root cause of him have a downgrown recessed as fuck mandible.

 

[hassan12]

Looks like shit, textbook surgery frauding without addressing the root cause (he has still a recessed posture + you see that he got surgery from a mile away)
French surgerons are trash (for jaw surgery)
I’m French

What are you smoking? This is one of the best jaw surgery results on reddit

 

[Eren]

That was the best result he could have hoped for which addressed the root cause of him have a downgrown recessed as fuck mandible.

yes but he still look shit

 

[Eren]

What are you smoking? This is one of the best jaw surgery results on reddit

clearly not, its 100% obvious with his goofy aah sky sloped nose fusing with his browridge but hey, if you want to get the same result you do you my king

 

[longjohnmong]

clearly not, its 100% obvious with his goofy aah sky sloped nose fusing with his browridge but hey, if you want to get the same result you do you my king

Yeah, why didn't the jaw surgeon give him a new forehead or why not an entire skull transplant? You've convinced me.

But maybe he can fix his nose slope by adopting new posture.

 

[wristcel]

any French surgeons who are affordable and decent that you can link me?
I'd rather not travel super far and France is nice and close!
Don't know how it would work with braces and stuff though that i'd presumably get here. They'd need to communicate?
It'd be awesome if I could got to France, get him to fuck up my jaws, then come back to the UK and get invasilign to straighten it all out

 

[chrishell]

any French surgeons who are affordable and decent that you can link me?
I'd rather not travel super far and France is nice and close!
Don't know how it would work with braces and stuff though that i'd presumably get here. They'd need to communicate?
It'd be awesome if I could got to France, get him to fuck up my jaws, then come back to the UK and get invasilign to straighten it all out

Serge Ketoff
Pierre Bouletreu
Didier Ernenwein
Gonzague Deffrennes
Emmanuel Racy
Frederic Barere
Pierre Olivi
Jacques Yachouh
Jacques Chardain
Amaury Gindre
Jean-Christophe Lutz

 

[lurking truecel]

Thought ramieri was 20k hmm. But will checkout.

21k actually

 

[pouetpouet]

Apparently they're expensive for foreigners. I talked with Dr. Davrou and he was really nice and all but he quoted me at 17k without the French insurance.

Dont go to davrou !! He botched a lot of frenchies with joint issues nerves issues. Most of his patients got 5/6 revisions surgeries with him because the result was always bad
Here are some examples of his work :
Those girls got permanent joint issue with a lot of pain because they had 6 revisions with him.
They are not the only ones unfortunately.

 

[LEFORT17]

Dont go to davrou !! He botched a lot of frenchies with joint issues nerves issues. Most of his patients got 5/6 revisions surgeries with him because the result was always bad
Here are some examples of his work :
Those girls got permanent joint issue with a lot of pain because they had 6 revisions with him.
They are not the only ones unfortunately.

´most disturbing ct scans i have seen so far

 

[pouetpouet]

´most disturbing ct scans i have seen so far

Ikr and there are a lot more
He is clearly a butcher

 

[LEFORT17]

Ikr and there are a lot more
He is clearly a butcher

idk if it is what i think it is but did he do the worst genio i have seen in the last pic?

 

[hassan12]

Dont go to davrou !! He botched a lot of frenchies with joint issues nerves issues. Most of his patients got 5/6 revisions surgeries with him because the result was always bad
Here are some examples of his work :
Those girls got permanent joint issue with a lot of pain because they had 6 revisions with him.
They are not the only ones unfortunately.

Wtf now im scared. I read a few posts on the french fb group earlier this year too and he somehow forced them to delete it was disturbing. Up until late last year he had excellent reputation tho idk what happened. Who do you think I should go for? Currently im doing orthodontic prep with davrou’s orthodontist and im gonna do surgery in like november.

 

[pouetpouet]

idk if it is what i think it is but did he do the worst genio i have seen in the last pic?

Seems like the bone is falling down yea

 

[pouetpouet]

Wtf now im scared. I read a few posts on the french fb group earlier this year too and he somehow forced them to delete it was disturbing. Up until late last year he had excellent reputation tho idk what happened. Who do you think I should go for? Currently im doing orthodontic prep with davrou’s orthodontist and im gonna do surgery in like november.

You can try other surgeons doing revision like
Bouletreau in Lyon
Ketoff in Paris

Davrou is blacklisted since many month among French community.
You should join French fb group to see it.
You cannot imagine how his victim faces were disfigured, they also have permanent joint and nerve damages.
He is very greedy and a liar.
Here is another example of his work :

 

[LEFORT17]

You can try other surgeons doing revision like
Bouletreau in Lyon
Ketoff in Paris

Davrou is blacklisted since many month among French community.
You should join French fb group to see it.
You cannot imagine how his victim faces were disfigured, they also have permanent joint and nerve damages.
He is very greedy and a liar.
Here is another example of his work :

her lower jaw seems completly destroyed

 

[pouetpouet]

her lower jaw seems completly destroyed

she will get revision because even her bite is worse.

her lower jaw seems completly destroyed

She will get revision because her bite is also destroyed

 

[chrishell]

Here is a list you can consult

Jean-Baptiste Charrier (over charges because of international hype)
Serge Ketoff
Pierre Bouletreu
Didier Ernenwein
Gonzague Deffrennes
Emmanuel Racy
Frederic Barere
Pierre Olivi
Jacques Yachouh
Jacques Chardai
Amaury Gindre
Jean-Christophe Lutz

I don't know anything about them. Make sure they use custom plates and do 3d planning at the least.

 

[chrishell]

You can try other surgeons doing revision like
Bouletreau in Lyon
Ketoff in Paris

Davrou is blacklisted since many month among French community.
You should join French fb group to see it.
You cannot imagine how his victim faces were disfigured, they also have permanent joint and nerve damages.
He is very greedy and a liar.
Here is another example of his work :

What is the name of the FB group

 

[pouetpouet]

What is the name of the FB group

Nouvelle machoire nouvelle vie

 

[chrishell]

Nouvelle machoire nouvelle vie

Merci

 

[hassan12]

You can try other surgeons doing revision like
Bouletreau in Lyon
Ketoff in Paris

Davrou is blacklisted since many month among French community.
You should join French fb group to see it.
You cannot imagine how his victim faces were disfigured, they also have permanent joint and nerve damages.
He is very greedy and a liar.
Here is another example of his work :

Yea im in the fb group u mentioned and ive read the reviews. Btw ketoff rejected me lol said I only needed genio and deffrennes ig is my choice now. The older deffrenes apparently retired. Loncle is apparently also good.

 

[MogEater]

In Turkey, for a Turkish citizen, bimax surgery costs around $2,000 at university hospitals, which usually have good and experienced professors. In private hospitals, it’s around $5,000. One of the most popular surgeons, Dr. Celal, charges around $6-8,000. not sure.

Don’t forget bimax is all about planning. Surgeons always follow the treatment plan.

For example, if you and your orthodontist plan something like 20° CCW, 1.2mm LF1 adjustment, the surgeon will follow that exactly.

The plan is made with your orthodontist using specific software to ensure precision and avoid any bad outcomes.

In rare cases, there can be complications like infections. Or, as my orthodontist said, sometimes when the surgeon opens the jaw, they might see something different from the scans and need to adjust but it’s rare.

@RealSurgerymax am I wrong, bro? –someone close to getting bimax.

 

[pouetpouet]

Yea im in the fb group u mentioned and ive read the reviews. Btw ketoff rejected me lol said I only needed genio and deffrennes ig is my choice now. The older deffrenes apparently retired. Loncle is apparently also good.

Why he rejected you?

 

[pouetpouet]

In Turkey, for a Turkish citizen, bimax surgery costs around $2,000 at university hospitals, which usually have good and experienced professors. In private hospitals, it’s around $5,000. One of the most popular surgeons, Dr. Celal, charges around $6-8,000. not sure.

Don’t forget bimax is all about planning. Surgeons always follow the treatment plan.

For example, if you and your orthodontist plan something like 20° CCW, 1.2mm LF1 adjustment, the surgeon will follow that exactly.

The plan is made with your orthodontist using specific software to ensure precision and avoid any bad outcomes.

In rare cases, there can be complications like infections. Or, as my orthodontist said, sometimes when the surgeon opens the jaw, they might see something different from the scans and need to adjust but it’s rare.

@RealSurgerymax am I wrong, bro? –someone close to getting bimax.

That’s not true I have talked with patient getting botched because the surgeon didn’t follow the plan, this is what happened with the girls I showed getting botched by davrou.
He made a plan during consultation and used another one in the surgical room … scary

 

[LEFORT17]

In Turkey, for a Turkish citizen, bimax surgery costs around $2,000 at university hospitals, which usually have good and experienced professors. In private hospitals, it’s around $5,000. One of the most popular surgeons, Dr. Celal, charges around $6-8,000. not sure.

Don’t forget bimax is all about planning. Surgeons always follow the treatment plan.

For example, if you and your orthodontist plan something like 20° CCW, 1.2mm LF1 adjustment, the surgeon will follow that exactly.

The plan is made with your orthodontist using specific software to ensure precision and avoid any bad outcomes.

In rare cases, there can be complications like infections. Or, as my orthodontist said, sometimes when the surgeon opens the jaw, they might see something different from the scans and need to adjust but it’s rare.

@RealSurgerymax am I wrong, bro? –someone close to getting bimax.

who does 20ccw rotation lmao

 

[MogEater]

who does 20ccw rotation lmao

its just an exemple

 

[MogEater]

That’s not true I have talked with patient getting botched because the surgeon didn’t follow the plan, this is what happened with the girls I showed getting botched by davrou.
He made a plan during consultation and used another one in the surgical room … scary

my ortho will be in the room with surgeon.

 

[MogEater]

my ortho will be in the room with surgeon.

also, my ortho work same surgeon over years, and not a single botched, surgery price is 1.5k usd planning 1,5kusd i wanna cunsult the planning with pagnoni and @RealSurgerymax probably they cost arround 500usd, im will be sure to not to get infection and the surgeon stick with the plan.

 

[LEFORT17]

also, my ortho work same surgeon over years, and not a single botched, surgery price is 1.5k usd planning 1,5kusd i wanna cunsult the planning with pagnoni and @RealSurgerymax probably they cost arround 500usd, im will be sure to not to get infection and the surgeon stick with the plan.

u wanna discuss your surgeons plan with another surgeon?

 

[MogEater]

u wanna discuss your surgeons plan with another surgeon?

yes, not just surgeons, i wanna hear an opinion fro giant, i think its best thing to do, lot of opinion.

 

[hassan12]

Why he rejected you?

He said I didn’t need surgery and maybe genio max but it was cope I checked with other surgeons. But idk now im thinking of maybe not following through with surgery considering ive got some success with facepulling. I might just continue to do that.

 

[RealSurgerymax]

In Turkey, for a Turkish citizen, bimax surgery costs around $2,000 at university hospitals, which usually have good and experienced professors. In private hospitals, it’s around $5,000. One of the most popular surgeons, Dr. Celal, charges around $6-8,000. not sure.

yes but celal charges more for non Turkish

Don’t forget bimax is all about planning. Surgeons always follow the treatment plan.

Lol no they dont. They roughly follow it and sometimes change it completely during the surgery

For example, if you and your orthodontist plan something like 20° CCW, 1.2mm LF1 adjustment, the surgeon will follow that exactly.

The plan is made with your orthodontist using specific software to ensure precision and avoid any bad outcomes.

Software planning doesnt ensure anything. Only custom guides and custom plates ensure the plan is followed within 95%.
They add an extra $7k

In rare cases, there can be complications like infections. Or, as my orthodontist said, sometimes when the surgeon opens the jaw, they might see something different from the scans and need to adjust but it’s rare.

@RealSurgerymax am I wrong, bro? –someone close to getting bimax.

 

[MogEater]

Lol no they dont. They roughly follow it and sometimes change it completely during the surgery

Software planning doesnt ensure anything. Only custom guides and custom plates ensure the plan is followed within 95%.
They add an extra $7k

Thank you for that comment. I’m definitely going to make sure my orthodontist is in the room with the surgeon, and I will use custom plates and guides. It’ll probably add a couple more grand. My orthodontist might already be planning to use them, since he says he charges $1,500 for the planning.

The surgeon he works with does bimaxillary surgeries every week for my ortho’s patients, and they’ve only had one botched case (due to infection).

So yep, custom guides and custom titanium plates are necessary for the best results and to ensure the plan is followed correctly.

By the way, can you please tell me how much your consultation is? I’d love to get your team’s opinion about custom plates, guides, planning, morphing, etc. By the way, my surgery will be in Ankara. If you’d like, you can be my guest.

Right now—actually, yesterday—my ortho placed the American Empower braces system and scanned my whole mouth. He’s making a custom Hyrax for SARPE for next week.

He says he does MSE a lot, but recently he prefers SARPE with a custom Hyrax.

My first plan was Damon with MSE, but my orthodontist recommended the American Empower system with a custom Hyrax for SARPE-MOG instead.

In the end, I’m going to have bimax surgery with genioplasty

At the same time, he placed two mini-screws to fix asymmetry.

My ex-ortho used a splint for TMJ, and she was just a horrible and unqualified orthodontist who didn’t even do minimal planning or any surgery-related work.

 

[MogEater]

Thank you for that comment. I’m definitely going to make sure my orthodontist is in the room with the surgeon, and I will use custom plates and guides. It’ll probably add a couple more grand. My orthodontist might already be planning to use them, since he says he charges $1,500 for the planning.

The surgeon he works with does bimaxillary surgeries every week for my ortho’s patients, and they’ve only had one botched case (due to infection).

So yep, custom guides and custom titanium plates are necessary for the best results and to ensure the plan is followed correctly.

By the way, can you please tell me how much your consultation is? I’d love to get your team’s opinion about custom plates, guides, planning, morphing, etc. By the way, my surgery will be in Ankara. If you’d like, you can be my guest.

Right now—actually, yesterday—my ortho placed the American Empower braces system and scanned my whole mouth. He’s making a custom Hyrax for SARPE for next week.
View attachment 3816799View attachment 3816805
He says he does MSE a lot, but recently he prefers SARPE with a custom Hyrax.

My first plan was Damon with MSE, but my orthodontist recommended the American Empower system with a custom Hyrax for SARPE-MOG instead.

In the end, I’m going to have bimax surgery with genioplasty

At the same time, he placed two mini-screws to fix asymmetry.

My ex-ortho used a splint for TMJ, and she was just a horrible and unqualified orthodontist who didn’t even do minimal planning or any surgery-related work.

@RealSurgerymax bump.