You probably need your orbitals and midface (nasal aperture) reduced in the vertical dimension and the lf1 area downgrafted.

[mvp2v1]

I see it everywhere. This pattern of growth wherein those with idea growth have what looks like this compressed upper maxilla but large and tall lower maxilla. I sort of alluded to this idea in this post. Some examples of what I mean:

(Low effort comparison but you get the idea: Mike mew has a short nasal aperture consistent with the right skull (a pattern consistent with old well grown skulls) wheras Ronald (JawHacks) has a long nasal aperture and "down swung orbitals" (my concept))

P.S. When measuring midface length its best to measure from eyes to tip of nose. Its just more accurate when we want to talk about midface lengths, as you can have a long midface due to various factors (long philtrum but relatively shorter nasal aperture (anterior open bites), or long nasal aperture but short philtrum (deep bites)), a long nasal aperture is what creates (its always associated with downswing orbitals) the ugly flat midface look.

Some implications: Downgrafting is not enough and will often just make you look even worse. to correct the misharmony that has come about due to our downgrown melted faces we need to fix the proportions which we can only do by reducing the vertical height of the nasal aperture and orbitals, and of course we would then need to increase the vertical height of the lower maxilla which can easily be done with lf1.

Here is a theoretical way to achieve this:
Step 1:

By implanting an anchor and using protraction at certain angle we may be able to achieve this movement which if I remember the analysis I did a long time ago the height of the nasal aperture as shown in this picture decreases (apparently no change to orbitals though), notice that the occlusion now sit further up in space, meaning the face become shorter overall, probably too short...
Step 2:
Lefort 1 downdraft. unfortunately the lefort 1 cut will increase the nasal aperture again. Assuming there is no other way of performing lf1 so that we may get growth of the yellow area without impacting the nasal aperture then we could potentially resort to some kind of implant(?) that could bring reduce its height back to pre lefort levels.

Obv this wouldn't do anything for our downswing orbitals and all the other shit wrong with out face... but this is a problem/aspect that I don't see anyone talking about.

 

[mvp2v1]

@RealSurgerymax thoughts?

Here some other pics that may show the phenomenon

 

[Youㅤ]

makes sense the nasal aperture gets vertially longer from recession since recession makes it narrow

mine is like jawhacks makes me have neanderthal proportions but recessed cuck skull

 

[mvp2v1]

Note I didnt bother to do the comparison here (made this thread in 15 min or some) but if you compare midface heights measuring from top of orbitals to nasal aperture you will see that the overall height of the attractive skull is similar if not longer than the ugly skull, however the midface portion is shorter and the lower maxilla is larger.

 

[mvp2v1]

since recession makes it narrow

Yeah everyone knows this however most (especially those that think MSE is a looksmax) think that its only narrower, the important thing they are missing is its also longer. I don't fully understand HOW its longer (I don't know the anatomical change well enough) but I do know its longer.

mine is like jawhacks makes me have neanderthal proportions but recessed cuck skull

I see what you mean, hopefully @RealSurgerymax can save us?

 

[Lethbridge]

if mike mew is "ideal" growth then I‘d rather be recessed

 

[mvp2v1]

if mike mew is "ideal" growth then I‘d rather be recessed

There is a thing called genetics...
but the same patterns are present...

This guy probably has superior facial growth than Salludon yet Sallu is far more attractive.

 

[perpetuallytired]

Note I didnt bother to do the comparison here (made this thread in 15 min or some) but if you compare midface heights measuring from top of orbitals to nasal aperture you will see that the overall height of the attractive skull is similar if not longer than the ugly skull, however the midface portion is shorter and the lower maxilla is larger.

This is water on this forum or at the very least, someone should be able to deduce it from ratios.

Having a short philtrum area is bad because philtrum needs to have a 1.5-1.6 proportion with your chin. Small chins generally suck.

Everyone knows about midface length and fwhr.

So getting a Lefort1 to shorten midface length is often not ideal, since it can only really shorten the philtrum area.

 

[perpetuallytired]

.

 

[mvp2v1]

Something I’d like to add:

U will often hear someone like Mike mew talk about upswinging the maxilla and thus allowing the mandible to swing out. In other words he is saying the mandible is being held back by the position of the maxilla. Well I think something similar is happening with the upper and lower maxilla. The upp maxilla has fallen down and back holding back the lower maxilla, and we need to move it up and forward so that the lower maxilla can slide out.

 

[mvp2v1]

This is water on this forum or at the very least, someone should be able to deduce it from ratios.

Having a short philtrum area is bad because philtrum needs to have a 1.5-1.6 proportion with your chin. Small chins generally suck.

Everyone knows about midface length and fwhr.

So getting a Lefort1 to shorten midface length is often not ideal, since it can only really shorten the philtrum area.

I’d like to see some legit midface shortening methods. is there any way to compact the lf1 and downgraft the area bellow it? Does this idea even make any sense.

 

[Foreverbrad]

So basically what you’re looking at is a Lefort 2 with CW rotation. The rotation gives the illusion of a shorter nasal aperture (because things at an angle appear shorter). Then some saddled infra implants to sort out the eye orbits and cheekbones. BSSO to make the mandible line up with the upper jaw, which will advance significantly from the rotation.

Lefort 1 is a shit surgery and I wish I could get done what I’ve just described, but I’m limited by the technology of my time.

 

[kurd]

nigga what

 

[mvp2v1]

So basically what you’re looking at is a Lefort 2 with CW rotation. The rotation gives the illusion of a shorter nasal aperture (because things at an angle appear shorter). Then some saddled infra implants to sort out the eye orbits and cheekbones. BSSO to make the mandible line up with the upper jaw, which will advance significantly from the rotation.

Lefort 1 is a shit surgery and I wish I could get done what I’ve just described, but I’m limited by the technology of my time.

Isn’t giant doing a case like this? I’d like to see what that looks like. Because it’s still not what we truly need but it’s closer than any of our other options .

 

[mrriceguyreturn]

Will add approximately 0.07PSL

 

[Deleted member 65576]

No looks theory for your face

 

[mrriceguyreturn]

Will add approximately 0.07PSL

Actually reread the thread and the idea is complete bullshit, the thing he described will give you a short ass nose w long philtrum

 

[Foreverbrad]

Isn’t giant doing a case like this? I’d like to see what that looks like. Because it’s still not what we truly need but it’s closer than any of our other options .

Yes but I am not sure that having the entire planet’s hopes of ascension controlled by one man is a good thing or something I would want to participate in.

 

[mvp2v1]

Actually reread the thread and the idea is complete bullshit, the thing he described will give you a short ass nose w long philtrum

I dont rule out the possibility that the details of my idea may be wrong, but I think your wrong, I don't think downgrafting done right increases philtrum length in an unaesthetic manner. Maybe its because its usually accompanied with forward movement which increases lip size.

 

[mrriceguyreturn]

View attachment 3040143 I dont rule out the possibility that the details of my idea may be wrong, but I think your wrong, I don't think downgrafting done right increases philtrum length in an unaesthetic manner. Maybe its because its usually accompanied with forward movement which increases lip size.

Bozo what you described literally should give you a longer philtrum/shorter nose and the examples you posted all have it

 

[mvp2v1]

Bozo what you described literally should give you a longer philtrum/shorter nose and the examples you posted all have it

yeah, and it looks good. bozo

 

[mrriceguyreturn]

yeah, and it looks good. bozo

Both would look better with noses that have normal length

 

[mvp2v1]

Both would look better with noses that have normal length

keep coping

 

[RealSurgerymax]

@RealSurgerymax thoughts?

Here some other pics that may show the phenomenon
View attachment 3039046

Caucasian -> African

 

[mvp2v1]

Caucasian -> African

caucasian

I bet this guy had gandy tier eye area.

probably the closest thing to this skull.

 

[Lookologist003]

This picture shows narrow cuck face brachy vs. wide face wide maxilla super foward grown Chad dolicho. This ideal proportion between length of lower maxilla and nasal aperture is not significant, as long as it isn't blown way out of wack and nukes midface ratio along with it. It would be last on a list of what makes an attractive face.

Note I didnt bother to do the comparison here (made this thread in 15 min or some) but if you compare midface heights measuring from top of orbitals to nasal aperture you will see that the overall height of the attractive skull is similar if not longer than the ugly skull, however the midface portion is shorter and the lower maxilla is larger.

I think that the Chad skull in that picture is rotated downward on the pitch axis a degree or two making the length of the lower maxilla longer with perspective distortion.

One thing I will agree with you on is that, yes, my orbitals do need to become more compact. I would like that very much.

 

[anticel]

So basically what you’re looking at is a Lefort 2 with CW rotation. The rotation gives the illusion of a shorter nasal aperture (because things at an angle appear shorter). Then some saddled infra implants to sort out the eye orbits and cheekbones. BSSO to make the mandible line up with the upper jaw, which will advance significantly from the rotation.

Lefort 1 is a shit surgery and I wish I could get done what I’ve just described, but I’m limited by the technology of my time.

lf1 is decent and some ppl rly need it. you are right tho that most people need lf1 + lf2/3 or only lf2/3

 

[BlackpillRemedy]

I see it everywhere. This pattern of growth wherein those with idea growth have what looks like this compressed upper maxilla but large and tall lower maxilla. I sort of alluded to this idea in this post. Some examples of what I mean:

View attachment 3038968View attachment 3039035(Low effort comparison but you get the idea: Mike mew has a short nasal aperture consistent with the right skull (a pattern consistent with old well grown skulls) wheras Ronald (JawHacks) has a long nasal aperture and "down swung orbitals" (my concept))

P.S. When measuring midface length its best to measure from eyes to tip of nose. Its just more accurate when we want to talk about midface lengths, as you can have a long midface due to various factors (long philtrum but relatively shorter nasal aperture (anterior open bites), or long nasal aperture but short philtrum (deep bites)), a long nasal aperture is what creates (its always associated with downswing orbitals) the ugly flat midface look.

Some implications: Downgrafting is not enough and will often just make you look even worse. to correct the misharmony that has come about due to our downgrown melted faces we need to fix the proportions which we can only do by reducing the vertical height of the nasal aperture and orbitals, and of course we would then need to increase the vertical height of the lower maxilla which can easily be done with lf1.

Here is a theoretical way to achieve this:
Step 1:
View attachment 3039038 By implanting an anchor and using protraction at certain angle we may be able to achieve this movement which if I remember the analysis I did a long time ago the height of the nasal aperture as shown in this picture decreases (apparently no change to orbitals though), notice that the occlusion now sit further up in space, meaning the face become shorter overall, probably too short...
Step 2:
Lefort 1 downdraft. unfortunately the lefort 1 cut will increase the nasal aperture again. Assuming there is no other way of performing lf1 so that we may get growth of the yellow area without impacting the nasal aperture then we could potentially resort to some kind of implant(?) that could bring reduce its height back to pre lefort levels.

Obv this wouldn't do anything for our downswing orbitals and all the other shit wrong with out face... but this is a problem/aspect that I don't see anyone talking about.

Sorry bro but this take is bad, like... Really, really bad.

You're basically saying a short midface and tall maxilla below the nasal spine is ideal?

This is the look you're advocating for brah

An excessively short nasal aperture is never a halo, it's actually regarded as a low IQ facial trait, while long mid faces (the length being due to a long nasal aperture) are regarded as a high IQ trait, so I'm pretty sure it's somewhat of a halo, at least in comparison to low IQ looking short midfacecels.

And a longer maxilla below the nasal aperture would just give you a vertical maxillary excess like this:

(looks like shit)

Also I cringed a little seeing how you used a language that makes you seem knowledgeable while basically being wrong about everything you said, idk, I felt like pointing that out cause it was comical.

 

[LongForgotten]

Caucasian -> African

Please respond to my dm.

 

[cantfathomcucks]

"i see it everywhere"
*shows one very retarded example*

this ratio can change by stronger or weaker chin. compare upper and lower midface only and you'll see a ton of counter examples.

 

[mrriceguyreturn]

Sorry bro but this take is bad, like... Really, really bad.

You're basically saying a short midface and tall maxilla below the nasal spine is ideal?

View attachment 3040563
This is the look you're advocating for brah

An excessively short nasal aperture is never a halo, it's actually regarded as a low IQ facial trait, while long mid faces (the length being due to a long nasal aperture) are regarded as a high IQ trait, so I'm pretty sure it's somewhat of a halo, at least in comparison to low IQ looking short midfacecels.

And a longer maxilla below the nasal aperture would just give you a vertical maxillary excess like this:

View attachment 3040566
(looks like shit)

Also I cringed a little seeing how you used a language that makes you seem knowledgeable while basically being wrong about everything you said, idk, I felt like pointing that out cause it was comical.

Ikr, essentially what he is saying is get a short nose + good eye orbits

 

[BlackpillRemedy]

Ikr, essentially what he is saying is get a short nose + good eye orbits

Aaand he’s also saying get a vertical maxillary excess. Bro is a doofus

 

[Orc]

I think what you're describing is just a phenotypical trait of celtic people, they tend to have deep notches underneath their brows and relatively low nose angles with upturned tips, which makes their nose relatively short and their philtrum on the longer side.

it doesn't tend to disrupt harmony that much because when your philtrum is long but your nose is short your mid-face isn't that affected.

 

[Delissola]

Caucasian -> African

Good notice actually

 

[mvp2v1]

"i see it everywhere"
*shows one very retarded example*

this ratio can change by stronger or weaker chin. compare upper and lower midface only and you'll see a ton of counter examples.

Show me a well developed counter example.

 

[mvp2v1]

this:

Ur showing me a deformed person. Also idk what language ur talking about, I’m just talking how I usually do

 

[mvp2v1]

Ikr, essentially what he is saying is get a short nose + good eye orbits

 

[mvp2v1]

Aaand he’s also saying get a vertical maxillary excess. Bro is a doofus

Not what I’m saying G

 

[mvp2v1]

It’s irrelevant and misses the point thus why I posted the cro magnon skull as reply.

Good notice actually

 

[mvp2v1]

I think what you're describing is just a phenotypical trait of celtic people, they tend to have deep notches underneath their brows and relatively low nose angles with upturned tips, which makes their nose relatively short and their philtrum on the longer side.

it doesn't tend to disrupt harmony that much because when your philtrum is long but your nose is short your mid-face isn't that affected.

Aaand he’s also saying get a vertical maxillary excess. Bro is a doofus

Ikr, essentially what he is saying is get a short nose + good eye orbits

"i see it everywhere"
*shows one very retarded example*

this ratio can change by stronger or weaker chin. compare upper and lower midface only and you'll see a ton of counter examples.

This picture shows narrow cuck face brachy vs. wide face wide maxilla super foward grown Chad dolicho. This ideal proportion between length of lower maxilla and nasal aperture is not significant, as long as it isn't blown way out of wack and nukes midface ratio along with it. It would be last on a list of what makes an attractive face.


I think that the Chad skull in that picture is rotated downward on the pitch axis a degree or two making the length of the lower maxilla longer with perspective distortion.

One thing I will agree with you on is that, yes, my orbitals do need to become more compact. I would like that very much.

Y’all are coping if u think most cases of CFD (which many of u don’t even “believe in” (thus the shit takes) ) don’t have melted nasal cavities. That’s what this thread is about really. The other issue with you guys is a lack of a apreciation that this thread is about one theoretical aspect of CFD. It’s not supposed to represent THE PROBLEM and THE SOLUTION to your poor looks. It’s one part of an overall solution. In addition to this u need to add front profile forward growth.

Lastly don’t forget that unless u have some results then ur just as bozo as me.

 

[DelonLover1999]

lol at using mew as an example of an ideal, his nose length (and shape) is one of the least harmonious things abt his face

having too much maxillary length is bad, but so is having too little, and mew obviously has too little

the ideal is a balanced nose length when compared to both the horizontal orbital space AND the lower third height. (water that I'm gonna use delon as the example)

 

[mvp2v1]

lol at using mew as an example of an ideal, his nose length (and shape) is one of the least harmonious things abt his face

having too much maxillary length is bad, but so is having too little, and mew obviously has too little

View attachment 3044363

the ideal is a balanced nose length when compared to both the horizontal orbital space AND the lower third height. (water that I'm gonna use delon as the example)

View attachment 3044366

Wholy shit y’all keep missing the point of my thread. I’m not talking about looks I’m talking about craniofacial dystrophy which happens to closely coorilates to looks. Secondly y’all are incapable of understanding the interplay between genetics and cfdev.

Do you understand what I’m saying???

 

[DelonLover1999]

Wholy shit y’all keep missing the point of my thread. I’m not talking about looks I’m talking about craniofacial dystrophy which happens to closely coorilates to looks. Secondly y’all are incapable of understanding the interplay between genetics and cfdev.

Do you understand what I’m saying???

I understand what you're saying, but your framework is too fixated on the growth patterns and skull structures of neanderthals and such

An anatomically modern human with 'perfect' development (and ideal averageness) wouldn't have the sort of philtrum/nose length ratio that mew has. And neither would he have an excessively long nose (like the other guy you posted in the OP).

 

[mvp2v1]

Good facial development does not mean attractive, just like poor facial development does not mean unattractive.

 

[mvp2v1]

I understand what you're saying, but your framework is too fixated on the growth patterns and skull structures of neanderthals and such

An anatomically modern human with 'perfect' development (and ideal averageness) wouldn't have the sort of philtrum/nose length ratio that mew has. And neither would he have an excessively long nose (like the other guy you posted in the OP).

No no no, Neanderthals are not related to sapiens other than some small amount of intermixing.

Anatomical modern human. There are various sub species and sub specie phenos it’s a useless concept to bring up. Ideal averageness? Again that’s a PSL concept has nothing to do with this thread.

 

[DelonLover1999]

No no no, Neanderthals are not related to sapiens other than some small amount of intermixing.

Anatomical modern human. There are various sub species and sub specie phenos it’s a useless concept to bring up. Ideal averageness? Again that’s a PSL concept has nothing to do with this thread.

your claim is that the growth pattern you talked abt in the OP signifies optimal development for humans. I would have agreed with you if you had used this nigga as an example of said pattern:

But this is clearly in between mew an the other guy in the OP, seeing as his nose takes up A LOT more vertical length in the midface than the philtrum

 

[mvp2v1]

optimal development for humans

Okay so correct me if wrong but it seems ur still confusing attractiveness with correct skull development.

But this is clearly in between mew an the other guy in the OP, seeing as his nose takes up A LOT more vertical length in the midface than the philtrum

Look at this pic again. Notice that the philtrum is longer on the attractive one than the deformed unattractive one…

As far as the difference between this guy and mew. I’m not sure why it’s there, could it be a genetic difference? Maybe… it could also be that mew has better development? Or even that mew has *worse development… it’s unclear, but the trend is clear.

 

[DelonLover1999]

Okay so correct me if wrong but it seems ur still confusing attractiveness with correct skull development.

Look at this pic again. Notice that the philtrum is longer on the attractive one than the deformed unattractive one…

As far as the difference between this guy and mew. I’m not sure why it’s there, could it be a genetic difference? Maybe… it could also be that mew has better development? Or even that mew has *worse development… it’s unclear, but the trend is clear.

The diff between this guy and mew is pretty simple, he has more vertical maxillary space for the nasal (and maxillary) conchas, and thus probably a better air filtration system (especially for the cold). And since most caucasian phenos adpated to somewhat colder climates, its an important trait. Ofc, that doesnt mean that a giga long nose is ideal, from either a developmental or aesthetic POV, because everything is a tradeoff.

Imo, ideal development means a balanced development, that makes sense from a functional standpoint AND can be recognized aesthetically as something attractive by other memebers of the species/subspecies

 

[mvp2v1]

The diff between this guy and mew is pretty simple, he has more vertical maxillary space for the nasal (and maxillary) conchas, and thus probably a better air filtration system (especially for the cold). And since most caucasian phenos adpated to somewhat colder climates, its an important trait. Ofc, that doesnt mean that a giga long nose is ideal, from either a developmental or aesthetic POV, because everything is a tradeoff.

Imo, ideal development means a balanced development, that makes sense from a functional standpoint AND can be recognized aesthetically as something attractive by other memebers of the species/subspecies

makes sense. what your saying then is that the difference between mew and the chad is genetic. my claim is that if the chads development went wrong his nasal aperture would have become longer.

 

[mvp2v1]

The diff between this guy and mew is pretty simple, he has more vertical maxillary space for the nasal (and maxillary) conchas, and thus probably a better air filtration system (especially for the cold). And since most caucasian phenos adpated to somewhat colder climates, its an important trait. Ofc, that doesnt mean that a giga long nose is ideal, from either a developmental or aesthetic POV, because everything is a tradeoff.

Imo, ideal development means a balanced development, that makes sense from a functional standpoint AND can be recognized aesthetically as something attractive by other memebers of the species/subspecies

P.S. anatomically modern humans existed at the same time as neandertals. cc comparison between neandertal skull (correctly developed) and a "cro magnon" (correctly develop Sapien-sapiens of European variety)