Blackpill A Detailed breakdown on Male dimorphism, indicators of health and its roles in attractiveness

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SubhumanCurrycel said:
been reading a lot of differing opinions on topics such as masc vs pretty boy, Feminine features vs Masculine features and more importantly what is sexual dimorphism why is it important, how important is it and so forth.

To Start it off
There seems to be a lot of confusion on this topic too, people will say guys like Vinnie the Hacker or Young Henry Cavil have ideal appeal because they are "masculine with feminine features"
View attachment 889023
View attachment 889024
But this is simply not true and I will break down why





What is Sexual Dimorphism?

Copypasting straight from google I get this:
" Sexual dimorphism is the condition where the two sexes of the same species exhibit different characteristics beyond the differences in their sexual organs.
Pretty self explanatory as our gonads produce androgenic hormones that have an especially significant effect on our physcical appearance and give indicators of our "genetic package" and develop during and after puberty signalling fertility.

Since you are here I assume you haven't fallen for the trap of "women aren't visual like men" or "men aren't expected to be goodlooking like women are"
We all know this is nonsense and when you look at other species the opposite if anything is true
View attachment 889045
This Continues even for mammals
View attachment 889047
And even for our Great Ape Cousins
View attachment 889048

Males in mammalian species that successfully procure many mates and are higher in the heirarchy often exhbit more sexual dimorphism than the average in the group
For example
Elephant Seals:
" A good example of intrasexual selection, in which males fight for dominance over a harem of females "
The Deer I posted above interact in which the males will ram their antlers into one another (sexually dimorphic trait) and those that win these tests have access to the most females.

Same goes for the Mountain Bison:
View attachment 889055
In fact its even more extreme for them. The male Bison are hyper aggressive so they essentially outcast themselves from the females of their species where year round they will but heads. Once Breeding season comes along the most dominant male in the heirarchy (directly associated with their physical dimorphism and dominance) will leave the male group and copulate with all the fertile females.

The mammalian structure of sexual and natural selection dynamics results in

Why do Mammals behave this way?

Some of you may be wondering this
Why is it this way? Why does it have to be this way? This is Unfair!

There are many ways to break this down firstly lets think of it in term of raw Sexual economics
Paraphrasing from a FaceandLMS video:
"A man produces more sperm in one day than a woman produces in her life, the female's egg is far more valuable than the sperm, millions of sperm will rush to the same egg real life is analagous to that"

Thats one way to put it.
But personally I think it Makes more sense to look at it through an action/reaction, cost effect lens:

Think of a scenario

A long time ago say 100'000 years ago two archiac humans one male and one female (cave Adam and Eve lol) find themselves isolated together in a cave for some time etc.
Just by virtue of this situation both have sex, not just once but multiple times throughout days, weeks maybe even months.
As a result of this they are likely to have sex during the females ovulation cycle and thus become pregnant

All is said and done right?
No not really
Lets take a detailed breakdown of the pros and Cons of each party involved as like every action there is a consequence and the consequences are not equally distributed between the sexes.

Male:
Pros: Passes on his DNA survival of his genetic material
Cons: Virtually none other than losing sperm

Female:
Pros: Like the male she passes on her DNA
Cons: None immediately BUT, in approximately a weeks time she will begin to feel sick and begin vommiting, shes pregnant and the initial feotus releases certain waste that make her sick, that is just the beginning,for the next 9 months she will have a vulnerable livign organism growing inside her
There are no maternity leaves in mother nature she is vulnerable to predators killing her, other humans killing her, if she gets hurt and the baby dies the baby will literally necrose inside her and kill her organs.
Her immune system is compromised and her need for nutrition and resources incrases to support the baby.
Once her pregnancy ends it doesn't stop there
An extremely common cause of death among women pre medical era was childbirth often due to blood loss.
Now she must harbour an infant and nurse it to a state of independence once again a very draining and cost heavy process.




Hence given this massive cost/benefit difference Women must select far more harshly on Traits:
Also imortant to note:
Mother nature has also made it that men have a higher sex drive than women meaning men are more willing to fuck and women are more willing to be more picky, sexual drive is like hunger and a hungry man will eat more + settle for less while a satiated will not eat as much and only eat when the quality is good


Looks:
Looks are an indicator of your genetic quality, if she is going to go through all that trouble she must insure the genetic material in the form of the sperm she will be recieving is of a high quality as to ensure that the offspring are genetically fit individuals themselves with a higher chance of survival, it is pretty self explanatory

Status:
Deny it all you want but humans are inherently a social species, heirarchies are as natural as taking a shit despite what leftists will tell you, they are universal to all great apes and virtually all mammals, status matters because a high status male is higher in the heirarchy they have more access to food, resources, power (and security) and as a consequence mates as they are the most secure option to breed with
Again as stated before a lot of the heirarchical behaviours in animals
Heirarchical behaviour is basic shit I learnt in highschool biology under the topic of Animal Behaviour, Don't be so naive to think this does not apply to you.

Resources
I specifically say resources as this changes over time but at our current age it seems as if its main mediator is money etc and once upon a time it was based on the physical labour and merit of a man. The more resources a man has the more likely he is to provide and protect the female during her pregnancy and throughout the time she raises her infants hence she makes an educated choice on which man will give her that security?

How do these factors interact with each other?
In the past I think they would've interacted more with each other due to the fact that virtually all acquirement of resources was based on physical merit etc. and money kind of changes that but the links still apply
A good looking male will tend to have a higher status and more opportunity to acquire resources
We observe this as the Hailo effect all of you are probably familar with where better looking people will be treated better even in corporate settings and so on.

" good-looking people make about 12% more money than less appealing folks, and that attractive real-estate brokers bring in more money than their less attractive peers."
.







Sexual Dimorphism vs Indicators of Youth and Health)

I believe this is something fundamental that some users on this forum fail to understand.
Users often confuse indicators of youth with Feminine features



Sexual dimorphism is almost always a positive.
Yes there are certain extremes in certain cases where too much dimorphism is present but this really isnt an issue for most and a lot of times it is indicitive of an underlying hormal regulation issue like pic related:
View attachment 889034
Being a clinically recognized medical condition/abnormality gives sense as to why said trait is not seen as attractive as it indicates bad health/genetics unfit for survival.



What is the distinction between the two then?

It's pretty clear

Indicators of Youth and Health are favoured in BOTH Sexes where as a dimorphic trait (male or female) is only favourable in ONE

This idea that certain feminine features look good on men is just dumb as a feminine feature is the antithesis of a male feature hence making the face less dimorphic and reducing its attractiveness

View attachment 889093

This is taking a caucasian face and changing the soft features such as hair minimically whilst emulating the dimorphic features
In the middle is AND meaning androgynous this is OBJECTIVELY the worst place to be in as an adult male or female as it has 0 dimorphic qualities on either side its features are an inbetween blend across the board, something you would expect from a prepubescent child, an individual with a chromosomal disorder such as intersex (Kleinfelters) or a transexual.
Many people confuse feminine/androgynous traits with indicators of Health which I'll explain later.

On the far left is closest for a male face (DOM) at least for a caucasian male, all his features from the wider bigonial, the follow cheeks, the bigger nose the wider chin, the more deepset eyes, the "boxxed off" hairline, and strong cheekbones are on the masculine side.

ANY feature you would make more "feminine" on the far left would lower his sexual attractiveness objectively
And no forward growth/not being recessed isnt dimorphic but the bone mass and ideal ratios are.

Indicators of Youth and Health are far different

They are often applicable universally across both sexes, youth is not to be confused with prepubescent features rather features indicating that the individual has signs of good health and mininmal aging given they are post puberty,

What is an example of this?

Collagen:
I often see how having good skin and collagen is seen as a "prettyboy" feature (hinting its not masculine), This is simply not true. Either you've been looking at too many roidheads with piss poor reptialian skin or fell for the meme that wanting to have good skin as a man is "gay and feminine:
View attachment 889099
View attachment 889024


Translates to good health with minimal biological aging and likely a good diet + skin genetics.

" Changes in collagen and elastic fibers are followed by the appearance of rhytides, sagging of skin, and loss of elasticity (Figure d). But diet, trough ingestion of sugar, can accelerate these signs of aging "
" "looking old for your age" is an indicator of poor health. The concept of perceived age has been shown to be predictive of mortality in elderly individuals (5, 6) and is associated with a higher risk of both morbidity and mortality (7). "
" Acute exposure to UV is associated with sunburn, DNA modifications, and immune suppression, but chronic, long-term exposure can lead to premature skin aging (photoaging) and skin cancer "


Just a short summary but signs of aging also linked with a poor diet, an accurate indicator of health predictive of an early death, also indicates skin damage and proclibity towards cancer.

This is not a feminine feature nor is it a masculine one it is seperate and is an indicator of health something that is beneficial and preferable between BOTH sexes and has very consistent traits that predict the health of the individual be that male or female and is totally unrelated to the sexual differentiation produced by the gonads.

HAIR QUALITY.
(Inb4 I rope)
I specify hair quality not just hair as there are dimorphic preferences in hair regarding to colour and this only refers to scalp hair not facial hair.

Clear indication is deficincies:
B vitamins that are crucial for cell function have been shown to be associated with hair loss/thinning along with folate and iron.
It can also be indicitive of a thyroid issue.
Many autoimmune diseases such as alopecia arieta target and kill hairfollicles this to an observer may indicate a malfunctioning immune system hence is seen as a biological negative regarding the genetic quality of the individual


Male and female pattern baldness:
Both are indicitive of a hormonal issue
Male pattern baldness is caused by an excess of DHT it may or may not signal a problem with testosterone (wether it be too little or too much)
.
The link is still unclear but:
"Research is showing men with male pattern baldness have an increased risk of developing heart disease and prostate cancer. Research is showing men with male pattern baldness have an increased risk of developing heart disease and prostate"

Females can also develop Female Pattern baldness post-menapause
" Up to two-thirds of women experience hair loss after menopause "
This is a pretty obvious indicator as if a female is post menopause she is no longer ovulating therefore is infertile and cannot produce offspring.

Like skin both are also indicitive of old age and a lack of youth. The effectiveness of this may vary when considering the age your target audience of women so to speak.


LIPS

Now I guarantee I have seen this one a lot "more feminine lips are ideal" etc. but this simply isn't true as even thought they are a somewhat dimorphic this idea on this forum that "thin lips are a masculine trait" is just fucking retarded and I've im including it because ive seen it said many times.
Thin lips especially a thin upper lip are correlated with disorders such as down syndrome or fetal alcohol syndrome aka a developmental (or genetic) disorder.
View attachment 889121
Unironically kys if you think thin lips are a masculine trait, its a trait thats signals "I'm a deformed and abused dog that needs to be euthanized"

" Almost all the vertical profile measurements were greater in males than in females. The only variables with no gender differences were lower (Li-Sto) and upper vermilion heights"
"Men with lower 2D:4D tended to have more protrusive mandibles, noses, and lips. These facial features have been associated with more ‘masculine’ appearance (2,22,23), supporting the role of androgens"
"The results indicated a sex-effect, with females preferring fuller lips than males. Significant differences were also found between orthodontically treated subjects and untreated subjects, with untreated subjects preferring fuller lips"


Taking the info above into account and my subjective opinion would want good sized lips with good colour and fullness however, you wouldnt want huge cocksucker James Charles Tier lips that throw off the philtrum and chin balances of the lower third.
Imo something like a young Tom Welling from Smallville has a pretty good balance of these features along with guys like Vinnie the Hacker
View attachment 889127



Using examples to distinguish between Male Dimorphic features and features of Youth and health.


Danny Trejo
View attachment 889129


An Individual with very High male dimorphism but very low in Indicators of health and youth namely his skin and collagen

Jacob Sartorious
View attachment 889131
Coversely ranking very high on indicators of health such as good collagen, full thick head of hair, and good lips but severly lacking in male dimorphism giving him the babyfaced look


Ideally you want a good balance of both.
The importance of each may differ depending on age for example im sure some grannies would dig Danny Trejo and some middleschoolers would Sartorious but in regards to what is relavant to us for females in their late teens and early-mid twenties a pretty good mix of High indicators of health + youth and masculinity is needed for the broades overall appeal.

Good examples are as follows
View attachment 889023
View attachment 889024
View attachment 889147
View attachment 889148
View attachment 889154
Examples above are ideal
All have good collagen, a full head of hair, good lips yet are still very dimorphic.
Sometime these are called "Maesthetic or Robust prettyboy"
Maesthetic is an ok terminology but Robust prettyboy does not suit in my opinion as the denotion "prettyboy" gives the idea that the individual is not masculine/ is feminine in their features but as I've clarified that isn't necessarily the case.

Maesthetic = Masculine + Indicators of health/youth

Maesthetic =/= Masculine + some Feminine features


Thought id clear that out of the way


How to maximise on Features of youth and health?

I won't get into much detail because there are very detailed guides on this but essentially they consist around
1) Preserving male hair, stopping or reversing male pattern baldness + maximising appearance of hair density with things like minoxidil or finasteride if needed compounded with microneedling ideally
2) Maintain skin quality with a good skin care routine don't fall into the meme that "skincare is for women and gay people" your skin is literally your lifeline of youth minimise sun damage and try to get rid of any acne or scarring.
3) Not much you can do about lips, a quick looksmax tip I picked up from Effortless @Effortless was too exfoliate your lips to brigthen their colour and it works pretty well, other than that feed it moist and prevent cracks you can look into facial expansion devices but I don't know much about them.



KEY Male dimorphic features
(And what you can do)


Facial bones:

There is already so much information out on this one it pretty much speaks for itself that I won't spend too much time on it.
To sum it up:
View attachment 889093
Your ideal face should be as closest to the left as possible suiting to your phenotype of course
Quick notes
-Larger bigonial
-Deep set hunter eyes
- Larger browridge
-Larger nose
- Dense darker eyebrows
- Taller broder chin
-Larger more prominent cheekbones
- Thicker neck
- Straight hairline opposed to rounded.

Face theory is well covered both on this forum and in videos

Height.


Height also falls under the category of dimorphic qualities in the sense that men have more of it then women.
Height is inherently a masculine trait if you took an average faced 5'9 guy and made him 6'0 he would instantly become more masculine+attractive and have more success with women.

Women care far more about mens height than men care about womens and they want MORE of it than men



Being short as a man doesn't necessarily make you feminine per say but it detracts greatly from your masculinity to the point where even when you have other masculine traits a short height will overshadow other areas and you will be seen as overcompensating.
View attachment 889182
Case in point many people look down on him both figuratively and literally because hes 5'6 and he'll always be seen as a coping manlet
Meanwhile his 6'1 gigachad counterpart is respected and seen as a demigod

Height does not just effect your sex life it impedes on so many other aspects.

Swedish study showd shorter men had a 2x higher suicide rate (can’t remember what heights they based tall vs short off)
For men every 2inch increase in height had an average of a 9% reduction in suicide risk
6 foot is top 18% of male height however in a study among CEO’s it was roughly 50th percentile
Only 4% of the population is 6’2 and above however among CEO’s it’s 30%
An increase in height is correlated with greater reproductive success in males (water)
But it’s fine tho cos height doesn’t matter r-right?

"Shorter men have a twofold greater risk for suicide than taller men, according to a cohort study of more than a million men in this country.
For every five-centimeter (two-inch) increase in height, there was a 9% decrease in suicide risk, according to Patrik Magnusson, Ph.D., of Uppsala University and colleagues.
The association remained even after accounting for prenatal development and socioeconomic factors, the researchers reported in the July issue of American Journal of Psychiatry.

"Highly attractive people of both sexes earn at least 12% more than their less attractive coworkers. Read more at:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst"
"
Several studies over the years have shown that height and salary are positively correlated. This is true "especially for men, who earn 2.5% more per inch of additional height,"
It also suggested that a person who is 6 feet tall is likely to earn $166,000 more than someone who is 5 feet 5 inches tall, over a 30 year career."


A curvilinear effect of height on reproductive success in human males
.
" Human male height is associated with mate choice and intra-sexual competition, and therefore potentially with reproductive success "

I could go on but you get my point.
I want to stress the first bit though
"Swedish study showd shorter men had a 2x higher suicide rate"
"The association remained even after accounting for prenatal development and socioeconomic factors,"

People like to virtue signal amongst the mainstream about this but its clear cut as day it has nothing to do with "muh confidence" and everything to do with the physical trait itself
For every 100 tall men that committed suicide an EXCESS 100 short men did as well.
Imagine telling those short people that their suicides' were because of shit that was "in their heads" or a "confidence issue"
Its genuinely asinine.

I think the most detailed breakdown of height in dating was made by Deleted member 7866 @youngmaxxing in this thread
and there is not really much I can add to it so check it out

To give you an Idea:
"
90% of women will reject a man who is 5'4" based solely on his height.
65% of women will reject a man who is 5'7" based solely on his height.
50% of women will reject a man who is 5'8" based solely on his height.
14% of women will reject a man who is 5'10" based solely on his height.
1.5% of women will reject a man who is 6' based solely on his height.
Past 6'2", women begin to increase rejections of men for being too tall.
30% of women believe there is no such thing as a man being "too tall."
Over 94% of women will reject a man solely for him being too short. "

Women want to feel smaller than a man and without a solid excess of height over her she simply will not feel that way
Case in point:
Just take a look at the comments the amount of blackpill is absolutely insane women are creaming over him
View attachment 889195
Trust me there is a lot more
Let me remind you
That even despite the fact that the comment section of this Youtube video is primarily Leftists they still act in this primal way. The same people that virtue signal on instagram etc. that "everyone is beautiful, looks are subjective, there is someone out there for everyone, #bodypositivity" behave in raw female sexual desire when they see male dominance
Women absolutely LOVE it when men MOG the fuck out of other men
View attachment 889196
Despite being full social leftists they behave like this because it is hardwired human nature, keep coping with "muh social contruct" this is an innately dimorphic trait that is attractive for obvious reasons.




Hair

Ive already gone over hair loss and thinning so I will center this more around colour and style.
And when I say hair I am not only referring to head hair but overall in men this time.
Once again referring to the dimorphism chart
View attachment 889093
Males Have thicker more dense eyebrows indicating virility
.

If you have light eyebrows dye it dark or use latisse ASAP if you don't already have a thick pair of eyebrows.
Eyebrows can greatly increase the appearance of the eye area by increasing percived hooding and PFL
I can use myself as an extreme example to represent this:



Next on to hair COLOUR:

Women prefer darker hair on men
A very good thread summing up all the points on this by D @6ft5manlet doesn't leave much room for me to say anything else it's pretty self explanatory.

View attachment 889220




Next we can go onto Facial hair.

Once again facial hair is something that is sexually dimorphic however the ideal length may vary person to person. If you have a weak jaw you may need more to beardfraud, if you have a strong jaw, consider clean shaven or a minimal but heavy stubble should be maintained and contoured to complement the angularity of the jaw itself

Watch from 6:25


Body Hair.

A bit more complicated than the priot I cant find to much that is definitive this may be a case by case basis and more of a subjective taste among women.
Just anecdotally if you are lean and shredded in my personal experience from being a hair indian bodyhair can mask vascularity and definition so consider trimming it or shaving it off if so, if you are on the softer end body hair might act as a positive contributing to the "Large and Manly" look
Michelle Marrone is an example of the latter whereas Connor Murphy is an example of the former


Again just cater towards your own physique.
As for studies I found this: https://academic.oup.com/beheco/article/21/2/419/322906


Not very concrete but hairyness seems to be more on the subjective side and should be considered by an individual basis.




Muscles

Homo fags are going to debate a lot on this but it is pretty clear.
Dimorphism does not just begin and end in the face, like height muscles (and frame) also fall under this category.

If you want the BROADEST appeal for women in their late teens-mid twenties the answer is simple.
Muscles are a strong positive in the broadest sense YES there are SOME women that may prefer skinny guys but for the best overall appeal which will lead to by far the greatest success with women purely based on a game of probability it is in your best interest to have a good amount of musculature.


You get the point

.


This study proves my point more

Not a single woman amongst 160 preferred physically weaker men

This study used an eyetracker tracking womens eye movements on mens bodies

Pretty good video on it
Women voted via poll




According to eyetracking data women seem to look at abs quite a lot so its safe to say train them abs and always maintain a visible 6 pack

Muscle building is quite dependant on male testosterone for obvious reasons.
Certain muscle groups have a high androgen affinity towards testosterone


Traps and thus the sternoclamastoid and neck have a high androgen affinity
View attachment 889093
Explains why a thicker neck is observed here as a dimorphic trait

Imo neck curls with light weight 3x20 sets 3x per week yeild decent results

The neckpill is well documented and should never be underestimated


IMO a push/pull/legs has given me the best results.
Each muscle group should be trained at least 2x per week to maximise muscle protein synthesis and leave little room for catabolism.

Pretty easy to digest video for newbies:


A more advanced video with a respected researcher:

Census is at least train a muscle 2x per week there is not much benefit going more than 2x per week but 1x per week you are undercutting gains.










Alphadestiny is like 5'3 not 5'6
 
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I would add that other dimorphic things are:
1) Being a risk taker: since testosterone makes men more prone to risk.
2) Violence: for the same reason above
3) Stoicism: women are more emotional due to estrogens
4) Big dick: I don't have to explain why
5) Deep voice
 
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SubhumanCurrycel said:
been reading a lot of differing opinions on topics such as masc vs pretty boy, Feminine features vs Masculine features and more importantly what is sexual dimorphism why is it important, how important is it and so forth.

To Start it off
There seems to be a lot of confusion on this topic too, people will say guys like Vinnie the Hacker or Young Henry Cavil have ideal appeal because they are "masculine with feminine features"
View attachment 889023
View attachment 889024
But this is simply not true and I will break down why





What is Sexual Dimorphism?

Copypasting straight from google I get this:
" Sexual dimorphism is the condition where the two sexes of the same species exhibit different characteristics beyond the differences in their sexual organs.
Pretty self explanatory as our gonads produce androgenic hormones that have an especially significant effect on our physcical appearance and give indicators of our "genetic package" and develop during and after puberty signalling fertility.

Since you are here I assume you haven't fallen for the trap of "women aren't visual like men" or "men aren't expected to be goodlooking like women are"
We all know this is nonsense and when you look at other species the opposite if anything is true
View attachment 889045
This Continues even for mammals
View attachment 889047
And even for our Great Ape Cousins
View attachment 889048

Males in mammalian species that successfully procure many mates and are higher in the heirarchy often exhbit more sexual dimorphism than the average in the group
For example
Elephant Seals:
" A good example of intrasexual selection, in which males fight for dominance over a harem of females "
The Deer I posted above interact in which the males will ram their antlers into one another (sexually dimorphic trait) and those that win these tests have access to the most females.

Same goes for the Mountain Bison:
View attachment 889055
In fact its even more extreme for them. The male Bison are hyper aggressive so they essentially outcast themselves from the females of their species where year round they will but heads. Once Breeding season comes along the most dominant male in the heirarchy (directly associated with their physical dimorphism and dominance) will leave the male group and copulate with all the fertile females.

The mammalian structure of sexual and natural selection dynamics results in

Why do Mammals behave this way?

Some of you may be wondering this
Why is it this way? Why does it have to be this way? This is Unfair!

There are many ways to break this down firstly lets think of it in term of raw Sexual economics
Paraphrasing from a FaceandLMS video:
"A man produces more sperm in one day than a woman produces in her life, the female's egg is far more valuable than the sperm, millions of sperm will rush to the same egg real life is analagous to that"

Thats one way to put it.
But personally I think it Makes more sense to look at it through an action/reaction, cost effect lens:

Think of a scenario

A long time ago say 100'000 years ago two archiac humans one male and one female (cave Adam and Eve lol) find themselves isolated together in a cave for some time etc.
Just by virtue of this situation both have sex, not just once but multiple times throughout days, weeks maybe even months.
As a result of this they are likely to have sex during the females ovulation cycle and thus become pregnant

All is said and done right?
No not really
Lets take a detailed breakdown of the pros and Cons of each party involved as like every action there is a consequence and the consequences are not equally distributed between the sexes.

Male:
Pros: Passes on his DNA survival of his genetic material
Cons: Virtually none other than losing sperm

Female:
Pros: Like the male she passes on her DNA
Cons: None immediately BUT, in approximately a weeks time she will begin to feel sick and begin vommiting, shes pregnant and the initial feotus releases certain waste that make her sick, that is just the beginning,for the next 9 months she will have a vulnerable livign organism growing inside her
There are no maternity leaves in mother nature she is vulnerable to predators killing her, other humans killing her, if she gets hurt and the baby dies the baby will literally necrose inside her and kill her organs.
Her immune system is compromised and her need for nutrition and resources incrases to support the baby.
Once her pregnancy ends it doesn't stop there
An extremely common cause of death among women pre medical era was childbirth often due to blood loss.
Now she must harbour an infant and nurse it to a state of independence once again a very draining and cost heavy process.




Hence given this massive cost/benefit difference Women must select far more harshly on Traits:
Also imortant to note:
Mother nature has also made it that men have a higher sex drive than women meaning men are more willing to fuck and women are more willing to be more picky, sexual drive is like hunger and a hungry man will eat more + settle for less while a satiated will not eat as much and only eat when the quality is good


Looks:
Looks are an indicator of your genetic quality, if she is going to go through all that trouble she must insure the genetic material in the form of the sperm she will be recieving is of a high quality as to ensure that the offspring are genetically fit individuals themselves with a higher chance of survival, it is pretty self explanatory

Status:
Deny it all you want but humans are inherently a social species, heirarchies are as natural as taking a shit despite what leftists will tell you, they are universal to all great apes and virtually all mammals, status matters because a high status male is higher in the heirarchy they have more access to food, resources, power (and security) and as a consequence mates as they are the most secure option to breed with
Again as stated before a lot of the heirarchical behaviours in animals
Heirarchical behaviour is basic shit I learnt in highschool biology under the topic of Animal Behaviour, Don't be so naive to think this does not apply to you.

Resources
I specifically say resources as this changes over time but at our current age it seems as if its main mediator is money etc and once upon a time it was based on the physical labour and merit of a man. The more resources a man has the more likely he is to provide and protect the female during her pregnancy and throughout the time she raises her infants hence she makes an educated choice on which man will give her that security?

How do these factors interact with each other?
In the past I think they would've interacted more with each other due to the fact that virtually all acquirement of resources was based on physical merit etc. and money kind of changes that but the links still apply
A good looking male will tend to have a higher status and more opportunity to acquire resources
We observe this as the Hailo effect all of you are probably familar with where better looking people will be treated better even in corporate settings and so on.

" good-looking people make about 12% more money than less appealing folks, and that attractive real-estate brokers bring in more money than their less attractive peers."
.







Sexual Dimorphism vs Indicators of Youth and Health)

I believe this is something fundamental that some users on this forum fail to understand.
Users often confuse indicators of youth with Feminine features



Sexual dimorphism is almost always a positive.
Yes there are certain extremes in certain cases where too much dimorphism is present but this really isnt an issue for most and a lot of times it is indicitive of an underlying hormal regulation issue like pic related:
View attachment 889034
Being a clinically recognized medical condition/abnormality gives sense as to why said trait is not seen as attractive as it indicates bad health/genetics unfit for survival.



What is the distinction between the two then?

It's pretty clear

Indicators of Youth and Health are favoured in BOTH Sexes where as a dimorphic trait (male or female) is only favourable in ONE

This idea that certain feminine features look good on men is just dumb as a feminine feature is the antithesis of a male feature hence making the face less dimorphic and reducing its attractiveness

View attachment 889093

This is taking a caucasian face and changing the soft features such as hair minimically whilst emulating the dimorphic features
In the middle is AND meaning androgynous this is OBJECTIVELY the worst place to be in as an adult male or female as it has 0 dimorphic qualities on either side its features are an inbetween blend across the board, something you would expect from a prepubescent child, an individual with a chromosomal disorder such as intersex (Kleinfelters) or a transexual.
Many people confuse feminine/androgynous traits with indicators of Health which I'll explain later.

On the far left is closest for a male face (DOM) at least for a caucasian male, all his features from the wider bigonial, the follow cheeks, the bigger nose the wider chin, the more deepset eyes, the "boxxed off" hairline, and strong cheekbones are on the masculine side.

ANY feature you would make more "feminine" on the far left would lower his sexual attractiveness objectively
And no forward growth/not being recessed isnt dimorphic but the bone mass and ideal ratios are.

Indicators of Youth and Health are far different

They are often applicable universally across both sexes, youth is not to be confused with prepubescent features rather features indicating that the individual has signs of good health and mininmal aging given they are post puberty,

What is an example of this?

Collagen:
I often see how having good skin and collagen is seen as a "prettyboy" feature (hinting its not masculine), This is simply not true. Either you've been looking at too many roidheads with piss poor reptialian skin or fell for the meme that wanting to have good skin as a man is "gay and feminine:
View attachment 889099
View attachment 889024


Translates to good health with minimal biological aging and likely a good diet + skin genetics.

" Changes in collagen and elastic fibers are followed by the appearance of rhytides, sagging of skin, and loss of elasticity (Figure d). But diet, trough ingestion of sugar, can accelerate these signs of aging "
" "looking old for your age" is an indicator of poor health. The concept of perceived age has been shown to be predictive of mortality in elderly individuals (5, 6) and is associated with a higher risk of both morbidity and mortality (7). "
" Acute exposure to UV is associated with sunburn, DNA modifications, and immune suppression, but chronic, long-term exposure can lead to premature skin aging (photoaging) and skin cancer "


Just a short summary but signs of aging also linked with a poor diet, an accurate indicator of health predictive of an early death, also indicates skin damage and proclibity towards cancer.

This is not a feminine feature nor is it a masculine one it is seperate and is an indicator of health something that is beneficial and preferable between BOTH sexes and has very consistent traits that predict the health of the individual be that male or female and is totally unrelated to the sexual differentiation produced by the gonads.

HAIR QUALITY.
(Inb4 I rope)
I specify hair quality not just hair as there are dimorphic preferences in hair regarding to colour and this only refers to scalp hair not facial hair.

Clear indication is deficincies:
B vitamins that are crucial for cell function have been shown to be associated with hair loss/thinning along with folate and iron.
It can also be indicitive of a thyroid issue.
Many autoimmune diseases such as alopecia arieta target and kill hairfollicles this to an observer may indicate a malfunctioning immune system hence is seen as a biological negative regarding the genetic quality of the individual


Male and female pattern baldness:
Both are indicitive of a hormonal issue
Male pattern baldness is caused by an excess of DHT it may or may not signal a problem with testosterone (wether it be too little or too much)
.
The link is still unclear but:
"Research is showing men with male pattern baldness have an increased risk of developing heart disease and prostate cancer. Research is showing men with male pattern baldness have an increased risk of developing heart disease and prostate"

Females can also develop Female Pattern baldness post-menapause
" Up to two-thirds of women experience hair loss after menopause "
This is a pretty obvious indicator as if a female is post menopause she is no longer ovulating therefore is infertile and cannot produce offspring.

Like skin both are also indicitive of old age and a lack of youth. The effectiveness of this may vary when considering the age your target audience of women so to speak.


LIPS

Now I guarantee I have seen this one a lot "more feminine lips are ideal" etc. but this simply isn't true as even thought they are a somewhat dimorphic this idea on this forum that "thin lips are a masculine trait" is just fucking retarded and I've im including it because ive seen it said many times.
Thin lips especially a thin upper lip are correlated with disorders such as down syndrome or fetal alcohol syndrome aka a developmental (or genetic) disorder.
View attachment 889121
Unironically kys if you think thin lips are a masculine trait, its a trait thats signals "I'm a deformed and abused dog that needs to be euthanized"

" Almost all the vertical profile measurements were greater in males than in females. The only variables with no gender differences were lower (Li-Sto) and upper vermilion heights"
"Men with lower 2D:4D tended to have more protrusive mandibles, noses, and lips. These facial features have been associated with more ‘masculine’ appearance (2,22,23), supporting the role of androgens"
"The results indicated a sex-effect, with females preferring fuller lips than males. Significant differences were also found between orthodontically treated subjects and untreated subjects, with untreated subjects preferring fuller lips"


Taking the info above into account and my subjective opinion would want good sized lips with good colour and fullness however, you wouldnt want huge cocksucker James Charles Tier lips that throw off the philtrum and chin balances of the lower third.
Imo something like a young Tom Welling from Smallville has a pretty good balance of these features along with guys like Vinnie the Hacker
View attachment 889127



Using examples to distinguish between Male Dimorphic features and features of Youth and health.


Danny Trejo
View attachment 889129


An Individual with very High male dimorphism but very low in Indicators of health and youth namely his skin and collagen

Jacob Sartorious
View attachment 889131
Coversely ranking very high on indicators of health such as good collagen, full thick head of hair, and good lips but severly lacking in male dimorphism giving him the babyfaced look


Ideally you want a good balance of both.
The importance of each may differ depending on age for example im sure some grannies would dig Danny Trejo and some middleschoolers would Sartorious but in regards to what is relavant to us for females in their late teens and early-mid twenties a pretty good mix of High indicators of health + youth and masculinity is needed for the broades overall appeal.

Good examples are as follows
View attachment 889023
View attachment 889024
View attachment 889147
View attachment 889148
View attachment 889154
Examples above are ideal
All have good collagen, a full head of hair, good lips yet are still very dimorphic.
Sometime these are called "Maesthetic or Robust prettyboy"
Maesthetic is an ok terminology but Robust prettyboy does not suit in my opinion as the denotion "prettyboy" gives the idea that the individual is not masculine/ is feminine in their features but as I've clarified that isn't necessarily the case.

Maesthetic = Masculine + Indicators of health/youth

Maesthetic =/= Masculine + some Feminine features


Thought id clear that out of the way


How to maximise on Features of youth and health?

I won't get into much detail because there are very detailed guides on this but essentially they consist around
1) Preserving male hair, stopping or reversing male pattern baldness + maximising appearance of hair density with things like minoxidil or finasteride if needed compounded with microneedling ideally
2) Maintain skin quality with a good skin care routine don't fall into the meme that "skincare is for women and gay people" your skin is literally your lifeline of youth minimise sun damage and try to get rid of any acne or scarring.
3) Not much you can do about lips, a quick looksmax tip I picked up from Effortless @Effortless was too exfoliate your lips to brigthen their colour and it works pretty well, other than that feed it moist and prevent cracks you can look into facial expansion devices but I don't know much about them.



KEY Male dimorphic features
(And what you can do)


Facial bones:

There is already so much information out on this one it pretty much speaks for itself that I won't spend too much time on it.
To sum it up:
View attachment 889093
Your ideal face should be as closest to the left as possible suiting to your phenotype of course
Quick notes
-Larger bigonial
-Deep set hunter eyes
- Larger browridge
-Larger nose
- Dense darker eyebrows
- Taller broder chin
-Larger more prominent cheekbones
- Thicker neck
- Straight hairline opposed to rounded.

Face theory is well covered both on this forum and in videos

Height.


Height also falls under the category of dimorphic qualities in the sense that men have more of it then women.
Height is inherently a masculine trait if you took an average faced 5'9 guy and made him 6'0 he would instantly become more masculine+attractive and have more success with women.

Women care far more about mens height than men care about womens and they want MORE of it than men



Being short as a man doesn't necessarily make you feminine per say but it detracts greatly from your masculinity to the point where even when you have other masculine traits a short height will overshadow other areas and you will be seen as overcompensating.
View attachment 889182
Case in point many people look down on him both figuratively and literally because hes 5'6 and he'll always be seen as a coping manlet
Meanwhile his 6'1 gigachad counterpart is respected and seen as a demigod

Height does not just effect your sex life it impedes on so many other aspects.

Swedish study showd shorter men had a 2x higher suicide rate (can’t remember what heights they based tall vs short off)
For men every 2inch increase in height had an average of a 9% reduction in suicide risk
6 foot is top 18% of male height however in a study among CEO’s it was roughly 50th percentile
Only 4% of the population is 6’2 and above however among CEO’s it’s 30%
An increase in height is correlated with greater reproductive success in males (water)
But it’s fine tho cos height doesn’t matter r-right?

"Shorter men have a twofold greater risk for suicide than taller men, according to a cohort study of more than a million men in this country.
For every five-centimeter (two-inch) increase in height, there was a 9% decrease in suicide risk, according to Patrik Magnusson, Ph.D., of Uppsala University and colleagues.
The association remained even after accounting for prenatal development and socioeconomic factors, the researchers reported in the July issue of American Journal of Psychiatry.

"Highly attractive people of both sexes earn at least 12% more than their less attractive coworkers. Read more at:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst"
"
Several studies over the years have shown that height and salary are positively correlated. This is true "especially for men, who earn 2.5% more per inch of additional height,"
It also suggested that a person who is 6 feet tall is likely to earn $166,000 more than someone who is 5 feet 5 inches tall, over a 30 year career."


A curvilinear effect of height on reproductive success in human males
.
" Human male height is associated with mate choice and intra-sexual competition, and therefore potentially with reproductive success "

I could go on but you get my point.
I want to stress the first bit though
"Swedish study showd shorter men had a 2x higher suicide rate"
"The association remained even after accounting for prenatal development and socioeconomic factors,"

People like to virtue signal amongst the mainstream about this but its clear cut as day it has nothing to do with "muh confidence" and everything to do with the physical trait itself
For every 100 tall men that committed suicide an EXCESS 100 short men did as well.
Imagine telling those short people that their suicides' were because of shit that was "in their heads" or a "confidence issue"
Its genuinely asinine.

I think the most detailed breakdown of height in dating was made by Deleted member 7866 @youngmaxxing in this thread
and there is not really much I can add to it so check it out

To give you an Idea:
"
90% of women will reject a man who is 5'4" based solely on his height.
65% of women will reject a man who is 5'7" based solely on his height.
50% of women will reject a man who is 5'8" based solely on his height.
14% of women will reject a man who is 5'10" based solely on his height.
1.5% of women will reject a man who is 6' based solely on his height.
Past 6'2", women begin to increase rejections of men for being too tall.
30% of women believe there is no such thing as a man being "too tall."
Over 94% of women will reject a man solely for him being too short. "

Women want to feel smaller than a man and without a solid excess of height over her she simply will not feel that way
Case in point:
Just take a look at the comments the amount of blackpill is absolutely insane women are creaming over him
View attachment 889195
Trust me there is a lot more
Let me remind you
That even despite the fact that the comment section of this Youtube video is primarily Leftists they still act in this primal way. The same people that virtue signal on instagram etc. that "everyone is beautiful, looks are subjective, there is someone out there for everyone, #bodypositivity" behave in raw female sexual desire when they see male dominance
Women absolutely LOVE it when men MOG the fuck out of other men
View attachment 889196
Despite being full social leftists they behave like this because it is hardwired human nature, keep coping with "muh social contruct" this is an innately dimorphic trait that is attractive for obvious reasons.




Hair

Ive already gone over hair loss and thinning so I will center this more around colour and style.
And when I say hair I am not only referring to head hair but overall in men this time.
Once again referring to the dimorphism chart
View attachment 889093
Males Have thicker more dense eyebrows indicating virility
.

If you have light eyebrows dye it dark or use latisse ASAP if you don't already have a thick pair of eyebrows.
Eyebrows can greatly increase the appearance of the eye area by increasing percived hooding and PFL
I can use myself as an extreme example to represent this:



Next on to hair COLOUR:

Women prefer darker hair on men
A very good thread summing up all the points on this by D @6ft5manlet doesn't leave much room for me to say anything else it's pretty self explanatory.

View attachment 889220




Next we can go onto Facial hair.

Once again facial hair is something that is sexually dimorphic however the ideal length may vary person to person. If you have a weak jaw you may need more to beardfraud, if you have a strong jaw, consider clean shaven or a minimal but heavy stubble should be maintained and contoured to complement the angularity of the jaw itself

Watch from 6:25


Body Hair.

A bit more complicated than the priot I cant find to much that is definitive this may be a case by case basis and more of a subjective taste among women.
Just anecdotally if you are lean and shredded in my personal experience from being a hair indian bodyhair can mask vascularity and definition so consider trimming it or shaving it off if so, if you are on the softer end body hair might act as a positive contributing to the "Large and Manly" look
Michelle Marrone is an example of the latter whereas Connor Murphy is an example of the former


Again just cater towards your own physique.
As for studies I found this: https://academic.oup.com/beheco/article/21/2/419/322906


Not very concrete but hairyness seems to be more on the subjective side and should be considered by an individual basis.




Muscles

Homo fags are going to debate a lot on this but it is pretty clear.
Dimorphism does not just begin and end in the face, like height muscles (and frame) also fall under this category.

If you want the BROADEST appeal for women in their late teens-mid twenties the answer is simple.
Muscles are a strong positive in the broadest sense YES there are SOME women that may prefer skinny guys but for the best overall appeal which will lead to by far the greatest success with women purely based on a game of probability it is in your best interest to have a good amount of musculature.


You get the point

.



This study proves my point more

Not a single woman amongst 160 preferred physically weaker men

This study used an eyetracker tracking womens eye movements on mens bodies

Pretty good video on it
Women voted via poll




According to eyetracking data women seem to look at abs quite a lot so its safe to say train them abs and always maintain a visible 6 pack

Muscle building is quite dependant on male testosterone for obvious reasons.
Certain muscle groups have a high androgen affinity towards testosterone


Traps and thus the sternoclamastoid and neck have a high androgen affinity
View attachment 889093
Explains why a thicker neck is observed here as a dimorphic trait

Imo neck curls with light weight 3x20 sets 3x per week yeild decent results

The neckpill is well documented and should never be underestimated


IMO a push/pull/legs has given me the best results.
Each muscle group should be trained at least 2x per week to maximise muscle protein synthesis and leave little room for catabolism.

Pretty easy to digest video for newbies:


A more advanced video with a respected researcher:

Census is at least train a muscle 2x per week there is not much benefit going more than 2x per week but 1x per week you are undercutting gains.










Nice thread but why the random pics of Zayn ? 😂
 
fonzee98

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high effort thread
 
Deleted member 3997

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High IQ thread, should be stickied.
 
Madhate

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You forgot to mention skin color and contrast (why blue eyes are ideal) etc.
 
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ɯᴉsǝɹɐupnɯ said:
God tier thread, I just wanted to point out some things that were wrong/misleading.



It's not caused by an excess of DHT, it is caused by any level of androgenic hormones period. Even if you wiped out all DHT through something like dutasteride you would still get hair loss due to the fact that not only is testosterone androgenic in and of itself (Yes, DHT is 5x more androgenic, but still, testosterone is inherently androgenic due to it being the primary male sex hormone), but you actually get an INCREASE in serum and scalp testosterone levels when inhibiting DHT through 5a-reductaste inhibition, due to your body needing to compensate for the lack of androgenicity in the body in order to fulfil physiological functions like erections, libido, etc.

Obviously targeting DHT specifically through something like finasteride or dutasteride is what's going to do the majority of the legwork and will probably slow it down 95% of the way allowing you to keep a full head of hair for years, but if you want absolute maximum cessation of recession, you need to taget both DHT and T. Ideal combination is 5a-reductase inhibitor like dutasteride (if you can handle the drug without side effects, otherwise finasteride) + a topical anti-androgen like CB-03-01, RU-58841 or fluridil.



You should obviously be doing all of them together (5a-reductase inhibition with something like finasteride, topical anti-androgens like the one mentioned above, growth agonists like minoxidil and oral castor oil, and microneedling to enhance the effects of minoxidil) but the first step should always be reducing DHT with something like finasteride/dutasteride. DHT is what is doing most of the legwork in androgenic alopecia. Not using finasteride/dutasteride but covering up the losses with minoxidil will visually offset the losses, but you're just replacing natural hair with minoxidil dependent ones, which will fall out when you stop using it.



DO NOT DO THIS

Minoxidil should be used for the eyebrows, latisse (and all prostaglandins) should NEVER BE USED due to the fact that it causes SEVERE fat loss in the periorbital region, giving you a SEVERE bug-eyed look, you can see it with this article here. The fat loss reverses itself in almost all patients when stopping usage, but I would still edit the post, being bug-eyed will destroy your entire eye area.

That's about all I have to comment on, everything else is spot on buddy boyo, good thread.

What about castor oil on eyelashes?
 
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I understand that many of these are water is wet category but this could shut up many copers. Everything is important. Collagen, hair, jaw, lips everything. Why did op got banned though?
 
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Ethnicshit said:
What about castor oil on eyelashes?
Doesn't do anything, the castor oil only works if you ingest it. The people saying it works topically either :
1. Are coping
2. Took bad pictures to compare before and after
3. Had really dry skin and hair and the oil just coated them to make them look healthier

Topically, it's not going to do anything (maybe 1%?), using on your skin is a waste, way better results just ingesting it.

You can try it if you want but I really doubt it will do anything.
 
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ɯᴉsǝɹɐupnɯ said:
Doesn't do anything, the castor oil only works if you ingest it. The people saying it works topically either :
1. Are coping
2. Took bad pictures to compare before and after
3. Had really dry skin and hair and the oil just coated them to make them look healthier

Topically, it's not going to do anything (maybe 1%?), using on your skin is a waste, way better results just ingesting it.

You can try it if you want but I really doubt it will do anything.

I already do ingest It and apply It, haven't took good pictures tbh
 
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Might be the best thread I've ever read on here, ty
 
Last edited:
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This, without a SHRED out doubt, is the best thread I’ve ever read.
I agree with every word (and learned heaps), however for me, I find training chest + shoulders, back + shoulders, legs + neck, arms, is the best split for me (1 day rest in between, that’s all, no more than that each week)
I used to be trained by a huge, and I mean HUGE bodybuilder for 2 months just before my first SARMs cycle, I would attribute a lot of my unhuman gains from that cycle to him.
He reckons that he stopped training arms for 3 months and they grew an inch (basically he valued rest days more than anything).
 
brainded

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Got unbanned so i could read this.
 
Imthenewbeyoncee

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okay

b...but

why use this faggot as an example

 
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One thing about the mammal part: Not all mammals have polygamy harems. Some are actually mostly or entirely monogamous.
 
Lolcel

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One of the best threads here bhai
 
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SubhumanCurrycel said:
Unironically kys if you think thin lips are a masculine trait, its a trait thats signals "I'm a deformed and abused dog that needs to be euthanized"
" Almost all the vertical profile measurements were greater in males than in females. The only variables with no gender differences were lower (Li-Sto) and upper vermilion heights"
Prenatal sex hormones, digit ratio, and face shape in adult males
"Men with lower 2D:4D tended to have more protrusive mandibles, noses, and lips. These facial features have been associated with more ‘masculine’ appearance (2,22,23), supporting the role of androgens"
protrusive lips =/= thick lips

"Lips are sexually dimorphic, women's greater lip fullness developing under the influence of oestrogen (Farkas 1981; Fink and Neave 2005)."

- Lip colour affects perceived sex typicality and attractiveness of human faces



thin lips are definitely masculine, so is a long philtrum, theres nothing wrong with a few feminine features
 
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hairyballscel said:
protrusive lips =/= thick lips

"Lips are sexually dimorphic, women's greater lip fullness developing under the influence of oestrogen (Farkas 1981; Fink and Neave 2005)."

- Lip colour affects perceived sex typicality and attractiveness of human faces



thin lips are definitely masculine, so is a long philtrum, theres nothing wrong with a few feminine features
Is long eyelashes feminine?
 
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Phillybeard1996 said:
Is long eyelashes feminine?
eyelashes act as a protective barrier against dirt, dust, air/wind etc...

women have bigger eyes which is a dimorphic trait on women, so they would need longer eyelashes so they could properly serve there purpose

but testosterone is also said to increase eyelash length so im really not sure tbh

either way its a good trait that you should strive for, women love it on men
 
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Ethnicshit said:
I already do ingest It and apply It, haven't took good pictures tbh
How much? And does it work? Did it make your hair darker, thicker etc? (Same for beard ofc and all)

I am thinking of ingesting it but I wanna get as much info about it and anecdotal experiences as i can
 
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SubhumanCurrycel said:
Collagen:
I often see how having good skin and collagen is seen as a "prettyboy" feature (hinting its not masculine), This is simply not true. Either you've been looking at too many roidheads with piss poor reptialian skin or fell for the meme that wanting to have good skin as a man is "gay and feminine
I see this so fucking often bro. Great thread
 
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Am I dimorphic? What can me if I'm not
 

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everythingisacope

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Hashtaggolu said:
Am I dimorphic? What can me if I'm not
yes.there is a dimorphism scale you are not dominant type but you have dimorphic features like your jaw,eyebrows and lips
 
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everythingisacope said:
yes.there is a dimorphism scale you are not dominant type but you have dimorphic features like your jaw,eyebrows and lips
How can I be more dimorphic? I don't get beard
 
everythingisacope

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Hashtaggolu said:
How can I be more dimorphic? I don't get beard
through testosterone or HGH.Genes,environment and puberty or steroids but to a lesser extent
 
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everythingisacope said:
through testosterone or HGH.Genes,environment and puberty or steroids but to a lesser extent
Then it is not worth it right? Btw I'm 18 only henry cavill at my age was also a bit less dimorphic so maybe I will also get dimorphic
 
everythingisacope

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Hashtaggolu said:
Then it is not worth it right? Btw I'm 18 only henry cavill at my age was also a bit less dimorphic so maybe I will also get dimorphic
your face will not stop maturing due to testosterone exposure
 
everythingisacope

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Hashtaggolu said:
Then it is not worth it right? Btw I'm 18 only henry cavill at my age was also a bit less dimorphic so maybe I will also get dimorphic
so at 30 you look higher T than at 18 if you take care of yourself,exercise, etc
 
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everythingisacope said:
so at 30 you look higher T than at 18 if you take care of yourself,exercise, etc
Yes I hope that happens
 
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You think mse will improve mento labial
 
SubhumanCurrycel

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ascentium said:
You think mse will improve mento labial
Probably since the jaw won’t be as squashed in
 
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Proex said:
what happened its not in best of best anymore
Alexanderr @Alexanderr what happened to this thread being in bob?
 
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SubhumanCurrycel said:
been reading a lot of differing opinions on topics such as masc vs pretty boy, Feminine features vs Masculine features and more importantly what is sexual dimorphism why is it important, how important is it and so forth.

To Start it off
There seems to be a lot of confusion on this topic too, people will say guys like Vinnie the Hacker or Young Henry Cavil have ideal appeal because they are "masculine with feminine features"
View attachment 889023
View attachment 889024
But this is simply not true and I will break down why





What is Sexual Dimorphism?

Copypasting straight from google I get this:
" Sexual dimorphism is the condition where the two sexes of the same species exhibit different characteristics beyond the differences in their sexual organs.
Pretty self explanatory as our gonads produce androgenic hormones that have an especially significant effect on our physcical appearance and give indicators of our "genetic package" and develop during and after puberty signalling fertility.

Since you are here I assume you haven't fallen for the trap of "women aren't visual like men" or "men aren't expected to be goodlooking like women are"
We all know this is nonsense and when you look at other species the opposite if anything is true
View attachment 889045
This Continues even for mammals
View attachment 889047
And even for our Great Ape Cousins
View attachment 889048

Males in mammalian species that successfully procure many mates and are higher in the heirarchy often exhbit more sexual dimorphism than the average in the group
For example
Elephant Seals:
" A good example of intrasexual selection, in which males fight for dominance over a harem of females "
The Deer I posted above interact in which the males will ram their antlers into one another (sexually dimorphic trait) and those that win these tests have access to the most females.

Same goes for the Mountain Bison:
View attachment 889055
In fact its even more extreme for them. The male Bison are hyper aggressive so they essentially outcast themselves from the females of their species where year round they will but heads. Once Breeding season comes along the most dominant male in the heirarchy (directly associated with their physical dimorphism and dominance) will leave the male group and copulate with all the fertile females.

The mammalian structure of sexual and natural selection dynamics results in

Why do Mammals behave this way?

Some of you may be wondering this
Why is it this way? Why does it have to be this way? This is Unfair!

There are many ways to break this down firstly lets think of it in term of raw Sexual economics
Paraphrasing from a FaceandLMS video:
"A man produces more sperm in one day than a woman produces in her life, the female's egg is far more valuable than the sperm, millions of sperm will rush to the same egg real life is analagous to that"

Thats one way to put it.
But personally I think it Makes more sense to look at it through an action/reaction, cost effect lens:

Think of a scenario

A long time ago say 100'000 years ago two archiac humans one male and one female (cave Adam and Eve lol) find themselves isolated together in a cave for some time etc.
Just by virtue of this situation both have sex, not just once but multiple times throughout days, weeks maybe even months.
As a result of this they are likely to have sex during the females ovulation cycle and thus become pregnant

All is said and done right?
No not really
Lets take a detailed breakdown of the pros and Cons of each party involved as like every action there is a consequence and the consequences are not equally distributed between the sexes.

Male:
Pros: Passes on his DNA survival of his genetic material
Cons: Virtually none other than losing sperm

Female:
Pros: Like the male she passes on her DNA
Cons: None immediately BUT, in approximately a weeks time she will begin to feel sick and begin vommiting, shes pregnant and the initial feotus releases certain waste that make her sick, that is just the beginning,for the next 9 months she will have a vulnerable livign organism growing inside her
There are no maternity leaves in mother nature she is vulnerable to predators killing her, other humans killing her, if she gets hurt and the baby dies the baby will literally necrose inside her and kill her organs.
Her immune system is compromised and her need for nutrition and resources incrases to support the baby.
Once her pregnancy ends it doesn't stop there
An extremely common cause of death among women pre medical era was childbirth often due to blood loss.
Now she must harbour an infant and nurse it to a state of independence once again a very draining and cost heavy process.




Hence given this massive cost/benefit difference Women must select far more harshly on Traits:
Also imortant to note:
Mother nature has also made it that men have a higher sex drive than women meaning men are more willing to fuck and women are more willing to be more picky, sexual drive is like hunger and a hungry man will eat more + settle for less while a satiated will not eat as much and only eat when the quality is good


Looks:
Looks are an indicator of your genetic quality, if she is going to go through all that trouble she must insure the genetic material in the form of the sperm she will be recieving is of a high quality as to ensure that the offspring are genetically fit individuals themselves with a higher chance of survival, it is pretty self explanatory

Status:
Deny it all you want but humans are inherently a social species, heirarchies are as natural as taking a shit despite what leftists will tell you, they are universal to all great apes and virtually all mammals, status matters because a high status male is higher in the heirarchy they have more access to food, resources, power (and security) and as a consequence mates as they are the most secure option to breed with
Again as stated before a lot of the heirarchical behaviours in animals
Heirarchical behaviour is basic shit I learnt in highschool biology under the topic of Animal Behaviour, Don't be so naive to think this does not apply to you.

Resources
I specifically say resources as this changes over time but at our current age it seems as if its main mediator is money etc and once upon a time it was based on the physical labour and merit of a man. The more resources a man has the more likely he is to provide and protect the female during her pregnancy and throughout the time she raises her infants hence she makes an educated choice on which man will give her that security?

How do these factors interact with each other?
In the past I think they would've interacted more with each other due to the fact that virtually all acquirement of resources was based on physical merit etc. and money kind of changes that but the links still apply
A good looking male will tend to have a higher status and more opportunity to acquire resources
We observe this as the Hailo effect all of you are probably familar with where better looking people will be treated better even in corporate settings and so on.

" good-looking people make about 12% more money than less appealing folks, and that attractive real-estate brokers bring in more money than their less attractive peers."
.







Sexual Dimorphism vs Indicators of Youth and Health)

I believe this is something fundamental that some users on this forum fail to understand.
Users often confuse indicators of youth with Feminine features



Sexual dimorphism is almost always a positive.
Yes there are certain extremes in certain cases where too much dimorphism is present but this really isnt an issue for most and a lot of times it is indicitive of an underlying hormal regulation issue like pic related:
View attachment 889034
Being a clinically recognized medical condition/abnormality gives sense as to why said trait is not seen as attractive as it indicates bad health/genetics unfit for survival.



What is the distinction between the two then?

It's pretty clear

Indicators of Youth and Health are favoured in BOTH Sexes where as a dimorphic trait (male or female) is only favourable in ONE

This idea that certain feminine features look good on men is just dumb as a feminine feature is the antithesis of a male feature hence making the face less dimorphic and reducing its attractiveness

View attachment 889093

This is taking a caucasian face and changing the soft features such as hair minimically whilst emulating the dimorphic features
In the middle is AND meaning androgynous this is OBJECTIVELY the worst place to be in as an adult male or female as it has 0 dimorphic qualities on either side its features are an inbetween blend across the board, something you would expect from a prepubescent child, an individual with a chromosomal disorder such as intersex (Kleinfelters) or a transexual.
Many people confuse feminine/androgynous traits with indicators of Health which I'll explain later.

On the far left is closest for a male face (DOM) at least for a caucasian male, all his features from the wider bigonial, the follow cheeks, the bigger nose the wider chin, the more deepset eyes, the "boxxed off" hairline, and strong cheekbones are on the masculine side.

ANY feature you would make more "feminine" on the far left would lower his sexual attractiveness objectively
And no forward growth/not being recessed isnt dimorphic but the bone mass and ideal ratios are.

Indicators of Youth and Health are far different

They are often applicable universally across both sexes, youth is not to be confused with prepubescent features rather features indicating that the individual has signs of good health and mininmal aging given they are post puberty,

What is an example of this?

Collagen:
I often see how having good skin and collagen is seen as a "prettyboy" feature (hinting its not masculine), This is simply not true. Either you've been looking at too many roidheads with piss poor reptialian skin or fell for the meme that wanting to have good skin as a man is "gay and feminine:
View attachment 889099
View attachment 889024


Translates to good health with minimal biological aging and likely a good diet + skin genetics.

" Changes in collagen and elastic fibers are followed by the appearance of rhytides, sagging of skin, and loss of elasticity (Figure d). But diet, trough ingestion of sugar, can accelerate these signs of aging "
" "looking old for your age" is an indicator of poor health. The concept of perceived age has been shown to be predictive of mortality in elderly individuals (5, 6) and is associated with a higher risk of both morbidity and mortality (7). "
" Acute exposure to UV is associated with sunburn, DNA modifications, and immune suppression, but chronic, long-term exposure can lead to premature skin aging (photoaging) and skin cancer "


Just a short summary but signs of aging also linked with a poor diet, an accurate indicator of health predictive of an early death, also indicates skin damage and proclibity towards cancer.

This is not a feminine feature nor is it a masculine one it is seperate and is an indicator of health something that is beneficial and preferable between BOTH sexes and has very consistent traits that predict the health of the individual be that male or female and is totally unrelated to the sexual differentiation produced by the gonads.

HAIR QUALITY.
(Inb4 I rope)
I specify hair quality not just hair as there are dimorphic preferences in hair regarding to colour and this only refers to scalp hair not facial hair.

Clear indication is deficincies:
B vitamins that are crucial for cell function have been shown to be associated with hair loss/thinning along with folate and iron.
It can also be indicitive of a thyroid issue.
Many autoimmune diseases such as alopecia arieta target and kill hairfollicles this to an observer may indicate a malfunctioning immune system hence is seen as a biological negative regarding the genetic quality of the individual


Male and female pattern baldness:
Both are indicitive of a hormonal issue
Male pattern baldness is caused by an excess of DHT it may or may not signal a problem with testosterone (wether it be too little or too much)
.
The link is still unclear but:
"Research is showing men with male pattern baldness have an increased risk of developing heart disease and prostate cancer. Research is showing men with male pattern baldness have an increased risk of developing heart disease and prostate"

Females can also develop Female Pattern baldness post-menapause
" Up to two-thirds of women experience hair loss after menopause "
This is a pretty obvious indicator as if a female is post menopause she is no longer ovulating therefore is infertile and cannot produce offspring.

Like skin both are also indicitive of old age and a lack of youth. The effectiveness of this may vary when considering the age your target audience of women so to speak.


LIPS

Now I guarantee I have seen this one a lot "more feminine lips are ideal" etc. but this simply isn't true as even thought they are a somewhat dimorphic this idea on this forum that "thin lips are a masculine trait" is just fucking retarded and I've im including it because ive seen it said many times.
Thin lips especially a thin upper lip are correlated with disorders such as down syndrome or fetal alcohol syndrome aka a developmental (or genetic) disorder.
View attachment 889121
Unironically kys if you think thin lips are a masculine trait, its a trait thats signals "I'm a deformed and abused dog that needs to be euthanized"

" Almost all the vertical profile measurements were greater in males than in females. The only variables with no gender differences were lower (Li-Sto) and upper vermilion heights"
"Men with lower 2D:4D tended to have more protrusive mandibles, noses, and lips. These facial features have been associated with more ‘masculine’ appearance (2,22,23), supporting the role of androgens"
"The results indicated a sex-effect, with females preferring fuller lips than males. Significant differences were also found between orthodontically treated subjects and untreated subjects, with untreated subjects preferring fuller lips"


Taking the info above into account and my subjective opinion would want good sized lips with good colour and fullness however, you wouldnt want huge cocksucker James Charles Tier lips that throw off the philtrum and chin balances of the lower third.
Imo something like a young Tom Welling from Smallville has a pretty good balance of these features along with guys like Vinnie the Hacker
View attachment 889127



Using examples to distinguish between Male Dimorphic features and features of Youth and health.


Danny Trejo
View attachment 889129


An Individual with very High male dimorphism but very low in Indicators of health and youth namely his skin and collagen

Jacob Sartorious
View attachment 889131
Coversely ranking very high on indicators of health such as good collagen, full thick head of hair, and good lips but severly lacking in male dimorphism giving him the babyfaced look


Ideally you want a good balance of both.
The importance of each may differ depending on age for example im sure some grannies would dig Danny Trejo and some middleschoolers would Sartorious but in regards to what is relavant to us for females in their late teens and early-mid twenties a pretty good mix of High indicators of health + youth and masculinity is needed for the broades overall appeal.

Good examples are as follows
View attachment 889023
View attachment 889024
View attachment 889147
View attachment 889148
View attachment 889154
Examples above are ideal
All have good collagen, a full head of hair, good lips yet are still very dimorphic.
Sometime these are called "Maesthetic or Robust prettyboy"
Maesthetic is an ok terminology but Robust prettyboy does not suit in my opinion as the denotion "prettyboy" gives the idea that the individual is not masculine/ is feminine in their features but as I've clarified that isn't necessarily the case.

Maesthetic = Masculine + Indicators of health/youth

Maesthetic =/= Masculine + some Feminine features


Thought id clear that out of the way


How to maximise on Features of youth and health?

I won't get into much detail because there are very detailed guides on this but essentially they consist around
1) Preserving male hair, stopping or reversing male pattern baldness + maximising appearance of hair density with things like minoxidil or finasteride if needed compounded with microneedling ideally
2) Maintain skin quality with a good skin care routine don't fall into the meme that "skincare is for women and gay people" your skin is literally your lifeline of youth minimise sun damage and try to get rid of any acne or scarring.
3) Not much you can do about lips, a quick looksmax tip I picked up from Effortless @Effortless was too exfoliate your lips to brigthen their colour and it works pretty well, other than that feed it moist and prevent cracks you can look into facial expansion devices but I don't know much about them.



KEY Male dimorphic features
(And what you can do)


Facial bones:

There is already so much information out on this one it pretty much speaks for itself that I won't spend too much time on it.
To sum it up:
View attachment 889093
Your ideal face should be as closest to the left as possible suiting to your phenotype of course
Quick notes
-Larger bigonial
-Deep set hunter eyes
- Larger browridge
-Larger nose
- Dense darker eyebrows
- Taller broder chin
-Larger more prominent cheekbones
- Thicker neck
- Straight hairline opposed to rounded.

Face theory is well covered both on this forum and in videos

Height.


Height also falls under the category of dimorphic qualities in the sense that men have more of it then women.
Height is inherently a masculine trait if you took an average faced 5'9 guy and made him 6'0 he would instantly become more masculine+attractive and have more success with women.

Women care far more about mens height than men care about womens and they want MORE of it than men



Being short as a man doesn't necessarily make you feminine per say but it detracts greatly from your masculinity to the point where even when you have other masculine traits a short height will overshadow other areas and you will be seen as overcompensating.
View attachment 889182
Case in point many people look down on him both figuratively and literally because hes 5'6 and he'll always be seen as a coping manlet
Meanwhile his 6'1 gigachad counterpart is respected and seen as a demigod

Height does not just effect your sex life it impedes on so many other aspects.

Swedish study showd shorter men had a 2x higher suicide rate (can’t remember what heights they based tall vs short off)
For men every 2inch increase in height had an average of a 9% reduction in suicide risk
6 foot is top 18% of male height however in a study among CEO’s it was roughly 50th percentile
Only 4% of the population is 6’2 and above however among CEO’s it’s 30%
An increase in height is correlated with greater reproductive success in males (water)
But it’s fine tho cos height doesn’t matter r-right?

"Shorter men have a twofold greater risk for suicide than taller men, according to a cohort study of more than a million men in this country.
For every five-centimeter (two-inch) increase in height, there was a 9% decrease in suicide risk, according to Patrik Magnusson, Ph.D., of Uppsala University and colleagues.
The association remained even after accounting for prenatal development and socioeconomic factors, the researchers reported in the July issue of American Journal of Psychiatry.

"Highly attractive people of both sexes earn at least 12% more than their less attractive coworkers. Read more at:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst"
"
Several studies over the years have shown that height and salary are positively correlated. This is true "especially for men, who earn 2.5% more per inch of additional height,"
It also suggested that a person who is 6 feet tall is likely to earn $166,000 more than someone who is 5 feet 5 inches tall, over a 30 year career."


A curvilinear effect of height on reproductive success in human males
.
" Human male height is associated with mate choice and intra-sexual competition, and therefore potentially with reproductive success "

I could go on but you get my point.
I want to stress the first bit though
"Swedish study showd shorter men had a 2x higher suicide rate"
"The association remained even after accounting for prenatal development and socioeconomic factors,"

People like to virtue signal amongst the mainstream about this but its clear cut as day it has nothing to do with "muh confidence" and everything to do with the physical trait itself
For every 100 tall men that committed suicide an EXCESS 100 short men did as well.
Imagine telling those short people that their suicides' were because of shit that was "in their heads" or a "confidence issue"
Its genuinely asinine.

I think the most detailed breakdown of height in dating was made by Deleted member 7866 @youngmaxxing in this thread
and there is not really much I can add to it so check it out

To give you an Idea:
"
90% of women will reject a man who is 5'4" based solely on his height.
65% of women will reject a man who is 5'7" based solely on his height.
50% of women will reject a man who is 5'8" based solely on his height.
14% of women will reject a man who is 5'10" based solely on his height.
1.5% of women will reject a man who is 6' based solely on his height.
Past 6'2", women begin to increase rejections of men for being too tall.
30% of women believe there is no such thing as a man being "too tall."
Over 94% of women will reject a man solely for him being too short. "

Women want to feel smaller than a man and without a solid excess of height over her she simply will not feel that way
Case in point:
Just take a look at the comments the amount of blackpill is absolutely insane women are creaming over him
View attachment 889195
Trust me there is a lot more
Let me remind you
That even despite the fact that the comment section of this Youtube video is primarily Leftists they still act in this primal way. The same people that virtue signal on instagram etc. that "everyone is beautiful, looks are subjective, there is someone out there for everyone, #bodypositivity" behave in raw female sexual desire when they see male dominance
Women absolutely LOVE it when men MOG the fuck out of other men
View attachment 889196
Despite being full social leftists they behave like this because it is hardwired human nature, keep coping with "muh social contruct" this is an innately dimorphic trait that is attractive for obvious reasons.




Hair

Ive already gone over hair loss and thinning so I will center this more around colour and style.
And when I say hair I am not only referring to head hair but overall in men this time.
Once again referring to the dimorphism chart
View attachment 889093
Males Have thicker more dense eyebrows indicating virility
.

If you have light eyebrows dye it dark or use latisse ASAP if you don't already have a thick pair of eyebrows.
Eyebrows can greatly increase the appearance of the eye area by increasing percived hooding and PFL
I can use myself as an extreme example to represent this:



Next on to hair COLOUR:

Women prefer darker hair on men
A very good thread summing up all the points on this by D @6ft5manlet doesn't leave much room for me to say anything else it's pretty self explanatory.

View attachment 889220




Next we can go onto Facial hair.

Once again facial hair is something that is sexually dimorphic however the ideal length may vary person to person. If you have a weak jaw you may need more to beardfraud, if you have a strong jaw, consider clean shaven or a minimal but heavy stubble should be maintained and contoured to complement the angularity of the jaw itself

Watch from 6:25


Body Hair.

A bit more complicated than the priot I cant find to much that is definitive this may be a case by case basis and more of a subjective taste among women.
Just anecdotally if you are lean and shredded in my personal experience from being a hair indian bodyhair can mask vascularity and definition so consider trimming it or shaving it off if so, if you are on the softer end body hair might act as a positive contributing to the "Large and Manly" look
Michelle Marrone is an example of the latter whereas Connor Murphy is an example of the former


Again just cater towards your own physique.
As for studies I found this: https://academic.oup.com/beheco/article/21/2/419/322906


Not very concrete but hairyness seems to be more on the subjective side and should be considered by an individual basis.




Muscles

Homo fags are going to debate a lot on this but it is pretty clear.
Dimorphism does not just begin and end in the face, like height muscles (and frame) also fall under this category.

If you want the BROADEST appeal for women in their late teens-mid twenties the answer is simple.
Muscles are a strong positive in the broadest sense YES there are SOME women that may prefer skinny guys but for the best overall appeal which will lead to by far the greatest success with women purely based on a game of probability it is in your best interest to have a good amount of musculature.


You get the point

.



This study proves my point more

Not a single woman amongst 160 preferred physically weaker men

This study used an eyetracker tracking womens eye movements on mens bodies

Pretty good video on it
Women voted via poll




According to eyetracking data women seem to look at abs quite a lot so its safe to say train them abs and always maintain a visible 6 pack

Muscle building is quite dependant on male testosterone for obvious reasons.
Certain muscle groups have a high androgen affinity towards testosterone


Traps and thus the sternoclamastoid and neck have a high androgen affinity
View attachment 889093
Explains why a thicker neck is observed here as a dimorphic trait

Imo neck curls with light weight 3x20 sets 3x per week yeild decent results

The neckpill is well documented and should never be underestimated


IMO a push/pull/legs has given me the best results.
Each muscle group should be trained at least 2x per week to maximise muscle protein synthesis and leave little room for catabolism.

Pretty easy to digest video for newbies:


A more advanced video with a respected researcher:

Census is at least train a muscle 2x per week there is not much benefit going more than 2x per week but 1x per week you are undercutting gains.














Best thread on here tbqh if any 1 is serious about looks maxing they should read this thread btw does sexual dimoprhism also imply human behaviour
 
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Good thread.
But according to this: masthetic doms are superior to pretty boys.

Pretty boy = high indicators of youth & health + light dimorphic / masculine features
Masthetic = moderate / high indicators of youth & health + extreme dimorphic masculine features.

In other words, pretty boys skew a bit more towards the androgynous look.
 
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Renaissance.Chad said:
Good thread.
But according to this: masthetic doms are superior to pretty boys.

Pretty boy = high indicators of youth & health + light dimorphic / masculine features
Masthetic = moderate / high indicators of youth & health + extreme dimorphic masculine features.

In other words, pretty boys skew a bit more towards the androgynous look.
I don't think anyone disagrees that prettyboys are inferior to robust prettyboys/maesthetic
 
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SubhumanCurrycel said:
been reading a lot of differing opinions on topics such as masc vs pretty boy, Feminine features vs Masculine features and more importantly what is sexual dimorphism why is it important, how important is it and so forth.

To Start it off
There seems to be a lot of confusion on this topic too, people will say guys like Vinnie the Hacker or Young Henry Cavil have ideal appeal because they are "masculine with feminine features"
View attachment 889023
View attachment 889024
But this is simply not true and I will break down why





What is Sexual Dimorphism?

Copypasting straight from google I get this:
" Sexual dimorphism is the condition where the two sexes of the same species exhibit different characteristics beyond the differences in their sexual organs.
Pretty self explanatory as our gonads produce androgenic hormones that have an especially significant effect on our physcical appearance and give indicators of our "genetic package" and develop during and after puberty signalling fertility.

Since you are here I assume you haven't fallen for the trap of "women aren't visual like men" or "men aren't expected to be goodlooking like women are"
We all know this is nonsense and when you look at other species the opposite if anything is true
View attachment 889045
This Continues even for mammals
View attachment 889047
And even for our Great Ape Cousins
View attachment 889048

Males in mammalian species that successfully procure many mates and are higher in the heirarchy often exhbit more sexual dimorphism than the average in the group
For example
Elephant Seals:
" A good example of intrasexual selection, in which males fight for dominance over a harem of females "
The Deer I posted above interact in which the males will ram their antlers into one another (sexually dimorphic trait) and those that win these tests have access to the most females.

Same goes for the Mountain Bison:
View attachment 889055
In fact its even more extreme for them. The male Bison are hyper aggressive so they essentially outcast themselves from the females of their species where year round they will but heads. Once Breeding season comes along the most dominant male in the heirarchy (directly associated with their physical dimorphism and dominance) will leave the male group and copulate with all the fertile females.

The mammalian structure of sexual and natural selection dynamics results in

Why do Mammals behave this way?

Some of you may be wondering this
Why is it this way? Why does it have to be this way? This is Unfair!

There are many ways to break this down firstly lets think of it in term of raw Sexual economics
Paraphrasing from a FaceandLMS video:
"A man produces more sperm in one day than a woman produces in her life, the female's egg is far more valuable than the sperm, millions of sperm will rush to the same egg real life is analagous to that"

Thats one way to put it.
But personally I think it Makes more sense to look at it through an action/reaction, cost effect lens:

Think of a scenario

A long time ago say 100'000 years ago two archiac humans one male and one female (cave Adam and Eve lol) find themselves isolated together in a cave for some time etc.
Just by virtue of this situation both have sex, not just once but multiple times throughout days, weeks maybe even months.
As a result of this they are likely to have sex during the females ovulation cycle and thus become pregnant

All is said and done right?
No not really
Lets take a detailed breakdown of the pros and Cons of each party involved as like every action there is a consequence and the consequences are not equally distributed between the sexes.

Male:
Pros: Passes on his DNA survival of his genetic material
Cons: Virtually none other than losing sperm

Female:
Pros: Like the male she passes on her DNA
Cons: None immediately BUT, in approximately a weeks time she will begin to feel sick and begin vommiting, shes pregnant and the initial feotus releases certain waste that make her sick, that is just the beginning,for the next 9 months she will have a vulnerable livign organism growing inside her
There are no maternity leaves in mother nature she is vulnerable to predators killing her, other humans killing her, if she gets hurt and the baby dies the baby will literally necrose inside her and kill her organs.
Her immune system is compromised and her need for nutrition and resources incrases to support the baby.
Once her pregnancy ends it doesn't stop there
An extremely common cause of death among women pre medical era was childbirth often due to blood loss.
Now she must harbour an infant and nurse it to a state of independence once again a very draining and cost heavy process.




Hence given this massive cost/benefit difference Women must select far more harshly on Traits:
Also imortant to note:
Mother nature has also made it that men have a higher sex drive than women meaning men are more willing to fuck and women are more willing to be more picky, sexual drive is like hunger and a hungry man will eat more + settle for less while a satiated will not eat as much and only eat when the quality is good


Looks:
Looks are an indicator of your genetic quality, if she is going to go through all that trouble she must insure the genetic material in the form of the sperm she will be recieving is of a high quality as to ensure that the offspring are genetically fit individuals themselves with a higher chance of survival, it is pretty self explanatory

Status:
Deny it all you want but humans are inherently a social species, heirarchies are as natural as taking a shit despite what leftists will tell you, they are universal to all great apes and virtually all mammals, status matters because a high status male is higher in the heirarchy they have more access to food, resources, power (and security) and as a consequence mates as they are the most secure option to breed with
Again as stated before a lot of the heirarchical behaviours in animals
Heirarchical behaviour is basic shit I learnt in highschool biology under the topic of Animal Behaviour, Don't be so naive to think this does not apply to you.

Resources
I specifically say resources as this changes over time but at our current age it seems as if its main mediator is money etc and once upon a time it was based on the physical labour and merit of a man. The more resources a man has the more likely he is to provide and protect the female during her pregnancy and throughout the time she raises her infants hence she makes an educated choice on which man will give her that security?

How do these factors interact with each other?
In the past I think they would've interacted more with each other due to the fact that virtually all acquirement of resources was based on physical merit etc. and money kind of changes that but the links still apply
A good looking male will tend to have a higher status and more opportunity to acquire resources
We observe this as the Hailo effect all of you are probably familar with where better looking people will be treated better even in corporate settings and so on.

" good-looking people make about 12% more money than less appealing folks, and that attractive real-estate brokers bring in more money than their less attractive peers."
.







Sexual Dimorphism vs Indicators of Youth and Health)

I believe this is something fundamental that some users on this forum fail to understand.
Users often confuse indicators of youth with Feminine features



Sexual dimorphism is almost always a positive.
Yes there are certain extremes in certain cases where too much dimorphism is present but this really isnt an issue for most and a lot of times it is indicitive of an underlying hormal regulation issue like pic related:
View attachment 889034
Being a clinically recognized medical condition/abnormality gives sense as to why said trait is not seen as attractive as it indicates bad health/genetics unfit for survival.



What is the distinction between the two then?

It's pretty clear

Indicators of Youth and Health are favoured in BOTH Sexes where as a dimorphic trait (male or female) is only favourable in ONE

This idea that certain feminine features look good on men is just dumb as a feminine feature is the antithesis of a male feature hence making the face less dimorphic and reducing its attractiveness

View attachment 889093

This is taking a caucasian face and changing the soft features such as hair minimically whilst emulating the dimorphic features
In the middle is AND meaning androgynous this is OBJECTIVELY the worst place to be in as an adult male or female as it has 0 dimorphic qualities on either side its features are an inbetween blend across the board, something you would expect from a prepubescent child, an individual with a chromosomal disorder such as intersex (Kleinfelters) or a transexual.
Many people confuse feminine/androgynous traits with indicators of Health which I'll explain later.

On the far left is closest for a male face (DOM) at least for a caucasian male, all his features from the wider bigonial, the follow cheeks, the bigger nose the wider chin, the more deepset eyes, the "boxxed off" hairline, and strong cheekbones are on the masculine side.

ANY feature you would make more "feminine" on the far left would lower his sexual attractiveness objectively
And no forward growth/not being recessed isnt dimorphic but the bone mass and ideal ratios are.

Indicators of Youth and Health are far different

They are often applicable universally across both sexes, youth is not to be confused with prepubescent features rather features indicating that the individual has signs of good health and mininmal aging given they are post puberty,

What is an example of this?

Collagen:
I often see how having good skin and collagen is seen as a "prettyboy" feature (hinting its not masculine), This is simply not true. Either you've been looking at too many roidheads with piss poor reptialian skin or fell for the meme that wanting to have good skin as a man is "gay and feminine:
View attachment 889099
View attachment 889024


Translates to good health with minimal biological aging and likely a good diet + skin genetics.

" Changes in collagen and elastic fibers are followed by the appearance of rhytides, sagging of skin, and loss of elasticity (Figure d). But diet, trough ingestion of sugar, can accelerate these signs of aging "
" "looking old for your age" is an indicator of poor health. The concept of perceived age has been shown to be predictive of mortality in elderly individuals (5, 6) and is associated with a higher risk of both morbidity and mortality (7). "
" Acute exposure to UV is associated with sunburn, DNA modifications, and immune suppression, but chronic, long-term exposure can lead to premature skin aging (photoaging) and skin cancer "


Just a short summary but signs of aging also linked with a poor diet, an accurate indicator of health predictive of an early death, also indicates skin damage and proclibity towards cancer.

This is not a feminine feature nor is it a masculine one it is seperate and is an indicator of health something that is beneficial and preferable between BOTH sexes and has very consistent traits that predict the health of the individual be that male or female and is totally unrelated to the sexual differentiation produced by the gonads.

HAIR QUALITY.
(Inb4 I rope)
I specify hair quality not just hair as there are dimorphic preferences in hair regarding to colour and this only refers to scalp hair not facial hair.

Clear indication is deficincies:
B vitamins that are crucial for cell function have been shown to be associated with hair loss/thinning along with folate and iron.
It can also be indicitive of a thyroid issue.
Many autoimmune diseases such as alopecia arieta target and kill hairfollicles this to an observer may indicate a malfunctioning immune system hence is seen as a biological negative regarding the genetic quality of the individual


Male and female pattern baldness:
Both are indicitive of a hormonal issue
Male pattern baldness is caused by an excess of DHT it may or may not signal a problem with testosterone (wether it be too little or too much)
.
The link is still unclear but:
"Research is showing men with male pattern baldness have an increased risk of developing heart disease and prostate cancer. Research is showing men with male pattern baldness have an increased risk of developing heart disease and prostate"

Females can also develop Female Pattern baldness post-menapause
" Up to two-thirds of women experience hair loss after menopause "
This is a pretty obvious indicator as if a female is post menopause she is no longer ovulating therefore is infertile and cannot produce offspring.

Like skin both are also indicitive of old age and a lack of youth. The effectiveness of this may vary when considering the age your target audience of women so to speak.


LIPS

Now I guarantee I have seen this one a lot "more feminine lips are ideal" etc. but this simply isn't true as even thought they are a somewhat dimorphic this idea on this forum that "thin lips are a masculine trait" is just fucking retarded and I've im including it because ive seen it said many times.
Thin lips especially a thin upper lip are correlated with disorders such as down syndrome or fetal alcohol syndrome aka a developmental (or genetic) disorder.
View attachment 889121
Unironically kys if you think thin lips are a masculine trait, its a trait thats signals "I'm a deformed and abused dog that needs to be euthanized"

" Almost all the vertical profile measurements were greater in males than in females. The only variables with no gender differences were lower (Li-Sto) and upper vermilion heights"
"Men with lower 2D:4D tended to have more protrusive mandibles, noses, and lips. These facial features have been associated with more ‘masculine’ appearance (2,22,23), supporting the role of androgens"
"The results indicated a sex-effect, with females preferring fuller lips than males. Significant differences were also found between orthodontically treated subjects and untreated subjects, with untreated subjects preferring fuller lips"


Taking the info above into account and my subjective opinion would want good sized lips with good colour and fullness however, you wouldnt want huge cocksucker James Charles Tier lips that throw off the philtrum and chin balances of the lower third.
Imo something like a young Tom Welling from Smallville has a pretty good balance of these features along with guys like Vinnie the Hacker
View attachment 889127



Using examples to distinguish between Male Dimorphic features and features of Youth and health.


Danny Trejo
View attachment 889129


An Individual with very High male dimorphism but very low in Indicators of health and youth namely his skin and collagen

Jacob Sartorious
View attachment 889131
Coversely ranking very high on indicators of health such as good collagen, full thick head of hair, and good lips but severly lacking in male dimorphism giving him the babyfaced look


Ideally you want a good balance of both.
The importance of each may differ depending on age for example im sure some grannies would dig Danny Trejo and some middleschoolers would Sartorious but in regards to what is relavant to us for females in their late teens and early-mid twenties a pretty good mix of High indicators of health + youth and masculinity is needed for the broades overall appeal.

Good examples are as follows
View attachment 889023
View attachment 889024
View attachment 889147
View attachment 889148
View attachment 889154
Examples above are ideal
All have good collagen, a full head of hair, good lips yet are still very dimorphic.
Sometime these are called "Maesthetic or Robust prettyboy"
Maesthetic is an ok terminology but Robust prettyboy does not suit in my opinion as the denotion "prettyboy" gives the idea that the individual is not masculine/ is feminine in their features but as I've clarified that isn't necessarily the case.

Maesthetic = Masculine + Indicators of health/youth

Maesthetic =/= Masculine + some Feminine features


Thought id clear that out of the way


How to maximise on Features of youth and health?

I won't get into much detail because there are very detailed guides on this but essentially they consist around
1) Preserving male hair, stopping or reversing male pattern baldness + maximising appearance of hair density with things like minoxidil or finasteride if needed compounded with microneedling ideally
2) Maintain skin quality with a good skin care routine don't fall into the meme that "skincare is for women and gay people" your skin is literally your lifeline of youth minimise sun damage and try to get rid of any acne or scarring.
3) Not much you can do about lips, a quick looksmax tip I picked up from Effortless @Effortless was too exfoliate your lips to brigthen their colour and it works pretty well, other than that feed it moist and prevent cracks you can look into facial expansion devices but I don't know much about them.



KEY Male dimorphic features
(And what you can do)


Facial bones:

There is already so much information out on this one it pretty much speaks for itself that I won't spend too much time on it.
To sum it up:
View attachment 889093
Your ideal face should be as closest to the left as possible suiting to your phenotype of course
Quick notes
-Larger bigonial
-Deep set hunter eyes
- Larger browridge
-Larger nose
- Dense darker eyebrows
- Taller broder chin
-Larger more prominent cheekbones
- Thicker neck
- Straight hairline opposed to rounded.

Face theory is well covered both on this forum and in videos

Height.


Height also falls under the category of dimorphic qualities in the sense that men have more of it then women.
Height is inherently a masculine trait if you took an average faced 5'9 guy and made him 6'0 he would instantly become more masculine+attractive and have more success with women.

Women care far more about mens height than men care about womens and they want MORE of it than men



Being short as a man doesn't necessarily make you feminine per say but it detracts greatly from your masculinity to the point where even when you have other masculine traits a short height will overshadow other areas and you will be seen as overcompensating.
View attachment 889182
Case in point many people look down on him both figuratively and literally because hes 5'6 and he'll always be seen as a coping manlet
Meanwhile his 6'1 gigachad counterpart is respected and seen as a demigod

Height does not just effect your sex life it impedes on so many other aspects.

Swedish study showd shorter men had a 2x higher suicide rate (can’t remember what heights they based tall vs short off)
For men every 2inch increase in height had an average of a 9% reduction in suicide risk
6 foot is top 18% of male height however in a study among CEO’s it was roughly 50th percentile
Only 4% of the population is 6’2 and above however among CEO’s it’s 30%
An increase in height is correlated with greater reproductive success in males (water)
But it’s fine tho cos height doesn’t matter r-right?

"Shorter men have a twofold greater risk for suicide than taller men, according to a cohort study of more than a million men in this country.
For every five-centimeter (two-inch) increase in height, there was a 9% decrease in suicide risk, according to Patrik Magnusson, Ph.D., of Uppsala University and colleagues.
The association remained even after accounting for prenatal development and socioeconomic factors, the researchers reported in the July issue of American Journal of Psychiatry.

"Highly attractive people of both sexes earn at least 12% more than their less attractive coworkers. Read more at:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst"
"
Several studies over the years have shown that height and salary are positively correlated. This is true "especially for men, who earn 2.5% more per inch of additional height,"
It also suggested that a person who is 6 feet tall is likely to earn $166,000 more than someone who is 5 feet 5 inches tall, over a 30 year career."


A curvilinear effect of height on reproductive success in human males
.
" Human male height is associated with mate choice and intra-sexual competition, and therefore potentially with reproductive success "

I could go on but you get my point.
I want to stress the first bit though
"Swedish study showd shorter men had a 2x higher suicide rate"
"The association remained even after accounting for prenatal development and socioeconomic factors,"

People like to virtue signal amongst the mainstream about this but its clear cut as day it has nothing to do with "muh confidence" and everything to do with the physical trait itself
For every 100 tall men that committed suicide an EXCESS 100 short men did as well.
Imagine telling those short people that their suicides' were because of shit that was "in their heads" or a "confidence issue"
Its genuinely asinine.

I think the most detailed breakdown of height in dating was made by Deleted member 7866 @youngmaxxing in this thread
and there is not really much I can add to it so check it out

To give you an Idea:
"
90% of women will reject a man who is 5'4" based solely on his height.
65% of women will reject a man who is 5'7" based solely on his height.
50% of women will reject a man who is 5'8" based solely on his height.
14% of women will reject a man who is 5'10" based solely on his height.
1.5% of women will reject a man who is 6' based solely on his height.
Past 6'2", women begin to increase rejections of men for being too tall.
30% of women believe there is no such thing as a man being "too tall."
Over 94% of women will reject a man solely for him being too short. "

Women want to feel smaller than a man and without a solid excess of height over her she simply will not feel that way
Case in point:
Just take a look at the comments the amount of blackpill is absolutely insane women are creaming over him
View attachment 889195
Trust me there is a lot more
Let me remind you
That even despite the fact that the comment section of this Youtube video is primarily Leftists they still act in this primal way. The same people that virtue signal on instagram etc. that "everyone is beautiful, looks are subjective, there is someone out there for everyone, #bodypositivity" behave in raw female sexual desire when they see male dominance
Women absolutely LOVE it when men MOG the fuck out of other men
View attachment 889196
Despite being full social leftists they behave like this because it is hardwired human nature, keep coping with "muh social contruct" this is an innately dimorphic trait that is attractive for obvious reasons.




Hair

Ive already gone over hair loss and thinning so I will center this more around colour and style.
And when I say hair I am not only referring to head hair but overall in men this time.
Once again referring to the dimorphism chart
View attachment 889093
Males Have thicker more dense eyebrows indicating virility
.

If you have light eyebrows dye it dark or use latisse ASAP if you don't already have a thick pair of eyebrows.
Eyebrows can greatly increase the appearance of the eye area by increasing percived hooding and PFL
I can use myself as an extreme example to represent this:



Next on to hair COLOUR:

Women prefer darker hair on men
A very good thread summing up all the points on this by D @6ft5manlet doesn't leave much room for me to say anything else it's pretty self explanatory.

View attachment 889220




Next we can go onto Facial hair.

Once again facial hair is something that is sexually dimorphic however the ideal length may vary person to person. If you have a weak jaw you may need more to beardfraud, if you have a strong jaw, consider clean shaven or a minimal but heavy stubble should be maintained and contoured to complement the angularity of the jaw itself

Watch from 6:25


Body Hair.

A bit more complicated than the priot I cant find to much that is definitive this may be a case by case basis and more of a subjective taste among women.
Just anecdotally if you are lean and shredded in my personal experience from being a hair indian bodyhair can mask vascularity and definition so consider trimming it or shaving it off if so, if you are on the softer end body hair might act as a positive contributing to the "Large and Manly" look
Michelle Marrone is an example of the latter whereas Connor Murphy is an example of the former


Again just cater towards your own physique.
As for studies I found this: https://academic.oup.com/beheco/article/21/2/419/322906


Not very concrete but hairyness seems to be more on the subjective side and should be considered by an individual basis.




Muscles

Homo fags are going to debate a lot on this but it is pretty clear.
Dimorphism does not just begin and end in the face, like height muscles (and frame) also fall under this category.

If you want the BROADEST appeal for women in their late teens-mid twenties the answer is simple.
Muscles are a strong positive in the broadest sense YES there are SOME women that may prefer skinny guys but for the best overall appeal which will lead to by far the greatest success with women purely based on a game of probability it is in your best interest to have a good amount of musculature.


You get the point

.



This study proves my point more

Not a single woman amongst 160 preferred physically weaker men

This study used an eyetracker tracking womens eye movements on mens bodies

Pretty good video on it
Women voted via poll




According to eyetracking data women seem to look at abs quite a lot so its safe to say train them abs and always maintain a visible 6 pack

Muscle building is quite dependant on male testosterone for obvious reasons.
Certain muscle groups have a high androgen affinity towards testosterone


Traps and thus the sternoclamastoid and neck have a high androgen affinity
View attachment 889093
Explains why a thicker neck is observed here as a dimorphic trait

Imo neck curls with light weight 3x20 sets 3x per week yeild decent results

The neckpill is well documented and should never be underestimated


IMO a push/pull/legs has given me the best results.
Each muscle group should be trained at least 2x per week to maximise muscle protein synthesis and leave little room for catabolism.

Pretty easy to digest video for newbies:


A more advanced video with a respected researcher:

Census is at least train a muscle 2x per week there is not much benefit going more than 2x per week but 1x per week you are undercutting gains.










BRAVO

Read every word of it and then some

Take a bow SubhumanCurrycel @SubhumanCurrycel

INSANELY GOOD THREAD
 
Soalian

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AscendingHero said:
BRAVO

Read every word of it and then some

Take a bow SubhumanCurrycel @SubhumanCurrycel

INSANELY GOOD THREAD
Lol how can you actually read more words than what he wrote JFL.
 
Deleted member 5185

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Soalian said:
Lol how can you actually read more words than what he wrote JFL.
he just read some sentences several time lmao xd
 
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Renaissance.Chad said:
Good thread.
But according to this: masthetic doms are superior to pretty boys.

Pretty boy = high indicators of youth & health + light dimorphic / masculine features
Masthetic = moderate / high indicators of youth & health + extreme dimorphic masculine features.

In other words, pretty boys skew a bit more towards the androgynous look.
Can you post some maesthetic men for examples (no homo)
 

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