LeFort 2/3 Surgeons

[Snicket]

Looking for European or US-based surgeons who provide high level osteotomies to non syndromic patients.
I know there are providers in developed countries - NOT Turkey or the developing world.

This would be to address mid-facial hypoplasia and class III malocclusion (7mm+). As most people here know, LeFort 1 is sadly inadequate in the vast majority of class III cases as it fails to address the full extent of the problem .

I have posted a similar topic but just need any lead I can get right now, so posting this just in case anyone new/knowledgable user sees this thread/missed the last one.

Once again, any help would be appreciated.

 

[BProdigy]

Are there even any surgeons who perform lf2 on non syndromic patients besides giant?

 

[lurking truecel]

What is it that you have that can't be fixed with implants in the upper face ?

 

[Snicket]

Are there even any surgeons who perform lf2 on non syndromic patients besides giant?

Giant provides implants in patnership with Turkish surgeons who perform LF2/3. I respect what he does but I'm not going to trust Turkey with such an invasive operation. The surgeons may well be good but I'm not prepared to take the risk, considering the magnitude of the operation.

 

[Snicket]

What is it that you have that can't be fixed with implants in the upper face ?

My issue with implants is long term aging with them and risks of bone erosion. I just want to move the bone and get closure on the whole thing without having to worry about it down the line. It also doesn't replicate moving the nasal cavity.

 

[lurking truecel]

My issue with implants is long term aging with them and risks of bone erosion. I just want to move the bone and get closure on the whole thing without having to worry about it down the line. It also doesn't replicate moving the nasal cavity.

No true, I get what you mean but I don't know if the risk is worth it

 

[Snicket]

No true, I get what you mean but I don't know if the risk is worth it

The complication rate is very low if done by an experienced surgeon. The issue is finding surgeons who are 1. Capable 2. Experienced and 3. Willing.

Most surgeons don't even satisfy 1 and many that are experienced just won't do it unless you have at least 1cm of recession. That leaves a lot of people (5mm-1cm) who clearly need more than LF-1 without proper treatment.

 

[chrishell]

Ask Pagnoni or Steinbacher

 

[Snicket]

Ask Pagnoni or Steinbacher

I didn't realise Pagnoni offered anything high level. Thanks for the help.

 

[iseeblue9]

no one is going to give u that depends on your severity thats a pipe dream unless u go to gaint and celal is cranio surgeon not just regular maxillo

 

[Snicket]

no one is going to give u that depends on your severity thats a pipe dream unless u go to gaint and celal is cranio surgeon not just regular maxillo

Yes it's very difficult. A lot of people in the 5mm-10mm category are left out in the cold because they're not severe enough. It's like telling a 5ft 2 guy not to do anything about it because he's doesn't have dwarfism.

 

[chrishell]

I didn't realise Pagnoni offered anything high level. Thanks for the help.

Heard from someone recently he may now be offering cosmetic LeFort 2 (for a very high price) so worth a shot

 

[Xx_gloomy_bison_xX]

Giant provides implants in patnership with Turkish surgeons who perform LF2/3. I respect what he does but I'm not going to trust Turkey with such an invasive operation. The surgeons may well be good but I'm not prepared to take the risk, considering the magnitude of the operation.

Who do you trust? You think US or Western European Surgeons are any good? We see plenty of shitty operations by Taban, Eppley, Yaremchuk, Pagnoni, Coencig etc...With that being said, If you go to a Turkish clinic for 1000 USD of course you will certainly get botched. However, if you find high quality doctors such as ones that Giants currently working with, you will almost always get a great result. Actually, LF2-3 are not even properly performed in US or Western Europe whereas Turkish surgeons like Celal or Burak are trained on these operations countless time by Giants. So they will have a lot more experience than "board certified" clowns

 

[longjohnmong]

However, if you find high quality doctors such as ones that Giants currently working with

lmao

Google Search

That was from 1.5 years ago, before any of you even knew his name. His assistant basically implying that they weren't even going to do planning.

 

[BimaxLaser]

Yes it's very difficult. A lot of people in the 5mm-10mm category are left out in the cold because they're not severe enough. It's like telling a 5ft 2 guy not to do anything about it because he's doesn't have dwarfism.

More like 5'8 5'9

 

[FutureSlayer]

Cmon dude just do lf1 and saddled implants

 

[Xx_gloomy_bison_xX]

lmao

Google Search

View attachment 3319862

View attachment 3319865

That was from 1.5 years ago, before any of you even knew his name. His assistant basically implying that they weren't even going to do planning.

Well when I talked to them, they told that they are doing planning. Here is a draft they sent me;

 

[JeanneDArcAlter]

Well when I talked to them, they told that they are doing planning. Here is a draft they sent me;
View attachment 3320134

The eyes look a bit uncanny in the after

 

[Snicket]

You think US or Western European Surgeons are any good?

Yes I do. Medical standards in the US and Western Europe are far higher than Turkey. This isn't a debatable point. According to most healthcare rankings, Turkey is on a par with Belarus.

We see plenty of shitty operations by Taban, Eppley, Yaremchuk, Pagnoni, Coencig etc...

I know that. I don't put blind faith in anyone. That doesn't change the fact that medical standards and safeguards are far higher than Turkey.

Actually, LF2-3 are not even properly performed in US or Western Europe whereas Turkish surgeons like Celal or Burak are trained on these operations countless time by Giants. So they will have a lot more experience than "board certified" clowns

These surgeries are performed in Europe on non syndromic people. They're just much harder to find. I don't think we should scoff at 'board certified'. It is some measure of quality and aptitude. High level osteotemies are massive, highly specialised operations so I won't just go anywhere for it. In fact, my standards will be much higher than for a conventional bimax.

 

[Xx_gloomy_bison_xX]

Yes I do. Medical standards in the US and Western Europe are far higher than Turkey. This isn't a debatable point. According to most healthcare rankings, Turkey is on a par with Belarus.

I know that. I don't put blind faith in anyone. That doesn't change the fact that medical standards and safeguards are far higher than Turkey.

These surgeries are performed in Europe on non syndromic people. They're just much harder to find. I don't think we should scoff at 'board certified'. It is some measure of quality and aptitude. High level osteotemies are massive, highly specialised operations so I won't just go anywhere for it. In fact, my standards will be much higher than for a conventional bimax.

In that case you have to acknowledge that surgeries you will get from these "high standard" doctors will be very mediocre because they are not performed for aesthetic purposes for ltn/mtns. You have to be deformed to get it. Unfortunately, doctors in west are too chicken for osteotomies. They prefer to go with fillers that end up shit. Can you imagine getting a medical degree and studying so much and you can't even predict how human body will react because it is too complicated for their two digit IQ. These are the people making standards "very high" and barring innovative surgeries to take place. That is why Turkey is great and I highly suggest you go somewhere that will push the boundaries and put aesthetic forward.

 

[Marelago]

no one is going to give u that depends on your severity thats a pipe dream unless u go to gaint and celal is cranio surgeon not just regular maxillo

Hahaha you really think Dr. Celai revolutionized the whole Lf3, lf2 OBO stuff concerning the surgery technique of those surgeries?
You have a miriad of excellent surgeons in Europe where do this stuff on regular basis.. since decades and decades you don't need to go to turkey.
Giant should show some results of the performed OBOs Lf3, LF2 performed by Dr. Celai without covering the whole face where we can't judge the results. Maybe I'm wrong that's why I want see results.

 

[Marelago]

Who do you trust? You think US or Western European Surgeons are any good? We see plenty of shitty operations by Taban, Eppley, Yaremchuk, Pagnoni, Coencig etc...With that being said, If you go to a Turkish clinic for 1000 USD of course you will certainly get botched. However, if you find high quality doctors such as ones that Giants currently working with, you will almost always get a great result. Actually, LF2-3 are not even properly performed in US or Western Europe whereas Turkish surgeons like Celal or Burak are trained on these operations countless time by Giants. So they will have a lot more experience than "board certified" clowns

I can't believe this sh.. Giant instruct Dr. Celai how to make a lf2?? Who's the doctor Dr. Celai or Giant?

 

[Marelago]

Heard from someone recently he may now be offering cosmetic LeFort 2 (for a very high price) so worth a shot

I bet with you that Raffaini which is highly regarded around his peers, highly skilled in complicated cases that he will do it for 1/3 of the price. Simply to explain 'cause the living costs in Italy are much less than in other European countries not even to talk about the US living costs.

 

[chrishell]

I bet with you that Raffaini which is highly regarded around his peers, highly skilled in complicated cases that he will do it for 1/3 of the price. Simply to explain 'cause the living costs in Italy are much less than in other European countries not even to talk about the US living costs.

Raffaini does not do LF2 on non-sydromic patients. Ever. Pagnoni is in Italy as well but he is charging American prices.

Who do you trust? You think US or Western European Surgeons are any good? We see plenty of shitty operations by Taban, Eppley, Yaremchuk, Pagnoni, Coencig etc...With that being said, If you go to a Turkish clinic for 1000 USD of course you will certainly get botched. However, if you find high quality doctors such as ones that Giants currently working with, you will almost always get a great result. Actually, LF2-3 are not even properly performed in US or Western Europe whereas Turkish surgeons like Celal or Burak are trained on these operations countless time by Giants. So they will have a lot more experience than "board certified" clowns

It's not the dunk you think it is to lambast surgeon for having safety standards. Lf2 and Lf3s performed in Turkey so far have all had serious issues. They are obsolete now with terminator mask or whatever now anyway.

 

[Marelago]

Raffaini does not do LF2 on non-sydromic patients. Ever. Pagnoni is in Italy as well but he is charging American prices.


It's not the dunk you think it is to lambast surgeon for having safety standards. Lf2 and Lf3s performed in Turkey so far have all had serious issues. They are obsolete now with terminator mask or whatever now anyway.

OK didn't know about Raffaini (can't believe it sincerely).. doesn't make sense to me.
You refer to me with the text below. I didn't write it. But interesting.
Can you reveal more about the serious issues on patients that did LF2, Lf3 in turkey?

 

[Snicket]

Raffaini does not do LF2 on non-sydromic patients. Ever. Pagnoni is in Italy as well but he is charging American prices.


It's not the dunk you think it is to lambast surgeon for having safety standards. Lf2 and Lf3s performed in Turkey so far have all had serious issues. They are obsolete now with terminator mask or whatever now anyway.

The truth is it’s not worth the risk for even a skilled max fac. They can just do more bimax surgeries instead, which have a fraction of the risk and planning time.

One botch of an LF2/3 could destroy a surgeon’s professional reputation and we’re not just taking about a slightly numb jaw here.

 

[iseeblue9]

Hahaha you really think Dr. Celai revolutionized the whole Lf3, lf2 OBO stuff concerning the surgery technique of those surgeries?
You have a miriad of excellent surgeons in Europe where do this stuff on regular basis.. since decades and decades you don't need to go to turkey.

ok then persuade a european to do a cosmetic lefort 2

Giant should show some results of the performed OBOs Lf3, LF2 performed by Dr. Celai without covering the whole face where we can't judge the results. Maybe I'm wrong that's why I want see results.

 

[Snicket]

ok then persuade a european to do a cosmetic lefort 2

It is kind of funny to proudly advertise a product while completely blurring it out.

 

[Lefor3Laser]

ok then persuade a european to do a cosmetic lefort 2

It will end up looking uncanny somehow.

 

[Lefor3Laser]

It is kind of funny to proudly advertise a product while completely blurring it out.

Yeah, if the results we saw are his "best" while they look uncanny, imagine the ones that we didn't.

Idk about le fort 2, seems way to risky to take into consideration, every risk of a le fort 1 is multiplied by X100 times.

 

[Snicket]

Idk about le fort 2, seems way to risky to take into consideration, every risk of a le fort 1 is multiplied by X100 times.

I know. It's not something I take it lightly. I just want to have a serious conversation with surgeons who can actually perform it.
If you entire maxilla is recessed - I'm talking 5mm+ - then these surgeries really are the only way to fix the problem. Most users here don't fit into this category so talking about LF2/3 is total overkill when implants are more than enough.

95%+ surgeons don't actually have the experience to perform high level LeForts so there's no engagement on the actual points. It's bimax or nothing because that's all they can offer.

Bimax + implants doesn't correct a truly hypoplastic maxilla sadly. I wish it did.

 

[Lefor3Laser]

I know. It's not something I take it lightly. I just want to have a serious conversation with surgeons who can actually perform it.
If you entire maxilla is recessed - I'm talking 5mm+ - then these surgeries really are the only way to fix the problem. Most users here don't fit into this category so talking about LF2/3 is total overkill when implants are more than enough.

95%+ surgeons don't actually have the experience to perform high level LeForts so there's no engagement on the actual points. It's bimax or nothing because that's all they can offer.

Bimax + implants doesn't correct a truly hypoplastic maxilla sadly. I wish it did.

There is already surgeries that can actually bring your whole skull forward (monobloc with trimax i believe), the only problem is that:
1.Nobody performs them on people
who don't have any deformity
2.It is to risky in a lot of ways not just risk of death

Hopefully in the future some new procedure is invented where the recovery is faster and safer.

Sadly implants are the only choice for now.

 

[Snicket]

There is already surgeries that can actually bring your whole skull forward (monobloc with trimax i believe), the only problem is that:
1.Nobody performs them on people
who don't have any deformity
2.It is to risky in a lot of ways not just risk of death

Hopefully in the future some new procedure is invented where the recovery is faster and safer.

Sadly implants are the only choice for now.

Obwegeser performs high level LeForts on non syndromics.

There are surgeons who do it but you're right it's incredibly rare and there are far more risks inherent in the operation.

I've seen medical journals where they instruct for LF2/3 advancements in "mild cases" with less than 1cm recession.
It is medically documented and performed - just not by the celebrity surgeons on this forum.

 

[FrenchareMedCucks]

Seems only truecel would need LF 2 most of users here including LTNs like me can improve a lot with LF 1 alone

 

[Snicket]

Seems only truecel would need LF 2 most of users here including LTNs like me can improve a lot with LF 1 alone

I'd improve from an LF1 alone too. The issue is that in my case, the entire maxilla is retruded by a significant amount.

Many people who get high level osteotomies also have a simultaneous bimax to get the optimal occlusal plane and bite.
This is what I'd likely need due to poor tooth show and asymmetries.

I had to do an online interview today and it was just plain to see that the entire maxillla was 404.
I'll go through periods where I dupe myself into thinking it's not bad but the photos and videos don't lie.

There's a problem and I'm going to fix it.