Make mouth/lips wider : Commissuroplasty overview & Makeup options

[NZb6Air]

I find it not that important, lip size and shape is what I look for honestly. But I understand it’s a dom trait. My mouth is on the smaller side but my lips are ok, it’s balances out my already ogre face.

Width is as important as curvature and height, goes hand in hand in resting mouth aesthetics

Thx bro. Actually I think my lips looks narrow because of my wide and bulbous nose. What worries me about a narrowing rhinoplasty is that it would make my eyes looks more wide-set.

What do you think about having a rhinoplasty and then infraorbitals to enhance esr?

Alar base is a bad reference point for lip width, IPD is more accurate since it's a key figure of the face. Those two procedures have no impact on ESR, only OBO and zygomatic alterations : you can change perceived ESR with nasion/radix projection changes or iris color, idk what u're asking exactly, ESR isn't even a good ratio to focus on, bizygo is better assessed with its relation to bitemporal and bigonial rather than with IPD and IPD with ICD, PFL, eyebrow length, nasion projection etc there's a misconception because bizygo is directly related to PFL but with growth, what would alter PFL via zygos post growth is a tripod osteotomy not a zygo implant.

 

[xnj]

dnr but mirin the giga quality bhai

 

[nxtlberg]

18+ / Leanmaxxed Only

​

The mouth or lip width is the distance between the oral commissures.

Spoiler: Lip anatomy and terminology :

1 Philtrum
2 Philtral ridges/columns
3 Cupid’s bow
4 High points of the vermilion (bilateral)
5 White roll
6 Upper lip vermilion
7 Upper lip tubercle
8 Vermilion border (mucocutaneous junction)
9 Lower lip vermilion
10 Oral (labial) commissures
11 Nasolabial groove
12 Mentolabial groove

View attachment 3176634​

Obviously, this is to be considered only after having addressed your maxilla (projection & palate width¹), teeth normalization & lip tonicity. (it's all related)

FIRST LET'S GET THIS OUT OF THE WAY :
How to tell you need orthognathic and/or orthodontic work for your lips aesthetics

Lip Curvature :
Upper lip curvature (frontal view): the mid-philtrum height and bilateral oral commissure heights should be approximately equal in adults with the lips lightly in contact.

View attachment 3177487
For example :
A significantly shorter mid-philtrum height compared with commissure height in an adult result in upper lip line morphology referred to as an inverted arc.

View attachment 3177488View attachment 3177692
According to Dr.Naini :
The contour of the upper and lower lips at rest may resemble an inverted arc in a number of conditions, giving the patient the appearance of a frown:

1 - Maxillary or midfacial hypoplasia: The unintentionally aggressive appearance particularly common in ‘ Class III ’ patients is due to this inverted arc, secondary to maxillary hypoplasia. Management requires maxillary advancement.

2- Lowering/drooping of the oral commissures as a result of ageing: Management requires rhytidectomy (facelift).

Lip tonicity :

It refers to the muscular tone of the lips and it is easily predictable by the underlying jaw structure and, subsequently, teeth alignment.

For example :

Class 2 malocclusion will often lead to hyperactivity of the lower lip :

View attachment 3177547

A more severe class 2 will often lead to upper lip hypotonicity :

View attachment 3177552

Bimaxillary protrusion will often lead to limp or flaccid lips :

View attachment 3177653

Correction of the underlying deformity allows normal lip function and often results in the upper lip developing normal tonicity.

Upper lip height (long philtrumcels) :

View attachment 3177685

Don't forget that the skull is a 3D object and that includes lips so a projection and even CCW rotation of the maxilla would lower perceived upper lip height @Clavicular and expose more upper lip vermilion. However, it probably won't help your lip width since the crucial growth period has been missed. I'd need @RealSurgerymax opinion on this since he has actual experience with multipiece Lefort 1's.

With considerations to thick BBC upper lips which tend to be less indicative/more camouflaging of the underlying teeth and jaw structures, so get scans ig
View attachment 3177493




Now that we've ruled out dentofacial deformities which is the reason most of us are ugly , it is still possible to have bad lip width without any skeletal problem due to genetics (), aging or soft tissue asymmetry.

What's an ideal lip width?

This nigga da Vinci thinks it should align with IPD in a well proportioned face

View attachment 3177704View attachment 3177706

which is correct bro

View attachment 3177707View attachment 3177708View attachment 3177709
View attachment 3177719View attachment 3177722View attachment 3177733


What are the physiognomical advantages of an ideal lip width / Why bother ?

First of all it's a baby trait² and babyfacedness is negatively correlated with attractiveness, same logic as hollow cheeks : "Particular attention has been paid to facial features which distinguish infants from adults. " B a b y i s h " or infantile facial features include a high and protruding forehead, large eyes placed in the middle of the face, a small nose and mouth, and fat cheeks (Gardner & Wallach, 1965; Hess, 1970)."


i.e. the chérubin look is undesirable for adults, it's what makes us invisible (like actually this is the reason subhumans are invisible)
View attachment 3178365
"As Zebrowitz (1997) noted, ‘‘a baby’s face is disarming’’ (p.64). Decades of research have shown that baby-faced adults are perceived as being more warm, trustworthy, and innocent than mature-faced adults (for a review, see Zebrowitz, 1997). They are also treated with greater patience, sensitivity, and compassion. For example, studies have demonstrated that baby-faced offenders tend to receive more lenient sentences than mature-faced offenders for certain types of crimes (e.g., Berry & Zebrowitz-McArthur, 1988). Studies have also found that baby-faced individuals are more persuasive than mature-faced individuals when trustworthiness is uncertain (Brownlow, 1992), and that corporations with baby-faced spokespeople are trusted more than those with mature-faced spokespeople during a mild public-relations crisis (Gorn, Jiang, & Johar, 2008). However, there are costs to the tenderness that a baby face engenders. Like babies, baby-faced adults are perceived as being incompetent and weak. Consequently, research has suggested that babyfaceness may be a liability for people striving to attain high positions of leadership in government (Zebrowitz & Montepare, 2005) and industry (Rule & Ambady, 2008)."³
Which is fine if you're femboymaxxing I guess

Secondly, it is a sign of physical formidability which then links it to leadership, the current evolutionary hypothesis being that canine tooth size and ICW is positively correlated with a wider mouth and big dimorphic canines (thus mouth) correlate with male physical combat and dominance in primates ⁴˒⁵
View attachment 3177444
Indeed, mouth width positively correlates with perceived leadership ability and actual leadership performance in humans⁶

some cagefuel I stumbled upon in a study analyzing the Facial Anthropometric Data of Korean Pilots for Oxygen Mask Design and pilots mog civilians for some reason (they just look the part)⁷ @mug



Disproving the usual copes :

JUST GET MSE BRO, first of all, only a few orthos provide it ( https://www.moonmse.com/distributors-1 ), it's expensive af (quoted 16k USD by Dr. Sheri Salartash), it can fail and the expansion could be asymmetric with 0 evidence of it leading to an increase in lip width, let alone in adults unless you have some death tier palate width or go way overboard and bugsbunnymax like this nigga

View attachment 3178079


THEN JUST GET SARPE LOL : This is the GOAT Ramieri in person here :
View attachment 3178063


LIP DEVICE :

like @Angutoid 's

My New Mouth Widening Invention Without Smile Lines

So this is how it looks like: I could make it more complicated but i wanted it to cost less so every narrow mouthcel could benefit. Wear this overnight!!! You need 2 more things (1 if you don't care about smile lines) to use with this: A rubber band (Smaller the size more the pressure is)...

looksmax.org

or the ones displayed in @RecessedPrettyboy 's thread

Mouth Widening Appliances

Mouth Widening Appliance 3d models for 3d printing Now before someone asks How do I print it if I dont have a 3d printer? Just go to a 3d printing service store and print it. simple and shoudnt be expensive at all Here are the different sizes: 7cm: https://www.tinkercad.com/things/2ZfCaY9upiy...

looksmax.org

or FacialFlex's https://www.craniorehab.com/Facial-Flex-Adult-Microstomia-Prevention-Appliance.html

Well, first of all, none of them are arguing for their efficacy , so i'll try to play devil's advocate :

Potential argument 1 : Lip tribe bro

View attachment 3178292
Well that's what ends up happening :

View attachment 3178293
View attachment 3178294

Potential argument 2 : Facial Flex

Well that one is specifically designed to prevent and manage microstomia i.e. we're talking about scarring or fibrosis here (= for it not to relapse) not to expand normal healthy tissue @Pendejo

Potential argument 3 : Anecdotal

People believe many things like iris color changes due to a raw meat diet @slavicpsycho, carbohydrate abstinence leading to optical superpowers @Never Get Up , mewing to increase lefort 3 area projection but these are "relatively" harmless except Bonesmashing stop it bro @Zeta @Clavicular

A too strong or improper lip expansion session could cause damage to the delicate tissues of the lips, tearing of the fragile mucous membranes which could lead to infections, muscle strain which would cause chronic fatigue or spasms, nerve irritation, it could have an impact on the alignment of the teeth, the health of gums, etc. So many unkown and very undesirable consequences that simple anecdotes can't logically outweigh.

What the fuck to do then ?

Commissuroplasty
I'm sure you're already vaguely familiar with this procedure, the main goal of this procedure is to maintain lip competence, it's a very quick and effective surgery though : it doesn't need complexe techniques.

You can do it in 2 ways⁸ :
The simplest being : Buccal mucosal advancement


The alternative being : Myomucosal advancement flap


OK BRO but who tf performs it bro even and how much ?
SPAIN : https://mallorcamedicalgroup.com/en/procedures/plastic-surgery/facial-surgery/comisuroplasty/
Price : 1k€ to 2k€
TEXAS : https://planoplasticsurgery.com/lip-commissuroplasty/
Price : Get a quote yourself lil bro
I know Eppley used to perform it, he wrote on it extensively on his blog but he stopped doing it, he would be charging 800k USD anyway


Makeup
I couldn't find any makeup tutorial that does this specifically, JFL at foids btw, muh looksmax gender, they always just increase lip vertical size like some retards actual

Just imagine for me that you're doing a commissuroplasty but with makeup
You're gonna need first concelear for two reasons :
1- to blur the actual natural edges of your mouth
2- to create a fake new vermillion border

An eyeshadow brush :
to blend-in the concealer

Lip liner :
You're gonna overline your lips slightly past the natural commissure and extend the line just beyoned the natural edge but don't do overdo it to avoid pufferfishmaxxing

Lipstick as cherry chapstick wouldn't be able to fill :
You're gonna fill in your newly accquired vermillion with a matching lipstick, matte lipstick would work better since it'll make it look sharper, you want lighter in the center and darker in the outer corners to give a gradient effect, that will enhance the width visually, you'll understand easily if you have any drawing/coloring background

Optional : Highlighter on the cupid's bow and just below the upper lip to draw the attention to the center en enhance that gradient effect.
Contouring to further accentuate the shadow you setup with the concealer

Follow some "HOW TO GET BIGGER LIPS" tutorials on youtube to get the gist but only apply it to lateral commissures since they all jsut increase the height of the vermillions.

OR Moustache obviously :





¹Stephan, C.N., & Henneberg, M. (2003). Predicting mouth width from inter-canine width — a 75% rule. Journal of Forensic Sciences, 48, 725–727.
²Hildebrandt, K.A., & Fitzgerald, H.E. (1979). Facial feature determinants of perceived infant attractiveness. Infant Behavior & Development, 2, 329–339.
³Livingston, R.W., & Pearce, N.A. (2009). The teddy-bear effect does having a baby face benefit black chief executive officers? Psychological Science, 20, 1229–1236.
⁴Harvey, P.H., Kavanagh, M., & Clutton-Brock, T.H. (1978). Sexual dimorphism in primate teeth. Journal of Zoology, 186, 475–485.
⁵Plavcan, J.M., & van Schaik, C.P. (1992). Intrasexual competition and canine dimorphism in anthropoid primates. American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 87, 461–477.
⁶Re, D. E., & Rule, N. O. (2016). The big man has a big mouth: Mouth width correlates with perceived leadership ability and actual leadership performance.
⁷https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Data_of_Korean_Pilots_for_Oxygen_Mask_Design
⁸Parsel, S. M., & Winters, R. D. (2020). Commissuroplasty. Operative Techniques in Otolaryngology, 31(1), 33–37.

Spoiler: Tags

@Clavicular @Alexanderr @TechnoBoss @Jason Voorhees @truthhurts @greycel @sb23 @Haseeb @truthhurts @PeakIncels @UZB_Strebl @MA_ascender @SubhumanForever @kaligula567 @enchanted_elixir @Blackgymmax @Rea @HarrierDuBois

Quick edit : the 1.6 with alar base is a shit measurement for ideal lip width cause ala size isn't a key feature in aesthetic cause then you would just get alarplasty with a shit mouth width but that will look like pure dogshit

mirin high effort bro can u make a thread on chin to phiulreum plez

 

[nxtlberg]

very unlikely, mouth area heals well compared to the rest of body, you'd have to be predisposed to them to have that risk

he should try giving himself one before gettting surgery jfl

 

[dark.max]

Thx bro. Actually I think my lips looks narrow because of my wide and bulbous nose. What worries me about a narrowing rhinoplasty is that it would make my eyes looks more wide-set.

What do you think about having a rhinoplasty and then infraorbitals to enhance esr?

Erm…I’m the real Varg

 

[hardRscreamer]

this is not possible bro,

iqmaxxing is real, juggling is known for increasing both gray matter AND white matter in the brain, i cant see how more brain ≠ more iq
its kind of niche but it has to work

 

[NZb6Air]

i cant see how more brain ≠ more iq
its kind of niche but it has to work

it's not, the same way less brain isn't less iq

 

[hardRscreamer]

it's not, the same way less brain isn't less iq

so this article is cope? https://www.scientificamerican.com/...n,overall variability in general intelligence.

 

[NZb6Air]

so this article is cope? https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/does-brain-size-matter1/#:~:text=In healthy volunteers, total brain,overall variability in general intelligence.

? this has nothing to do with we're discussing lol, this is cross species, something more relevant to the question would be how people who lost half their brain can still live normally, or TBI related necrosis not inducing any cognitive impairement (CTE is when it's too much, not relevant)

 

[badsurzzy]

w thread
nigga s iq is too high

 

[edodalic29]

High IQ , lips are a underrated feature, a thin upper lip for an example can contribute to many midface falios . Glad i got it fixed

 

[Pendejo]

1. Mouth width should be wider than ICD but never as wide as IPD (unless you are a cyclops, but then you should stop worrying about mouth width and get shotgun implants instead tbhngl)

A Note on the Ideal Mouth Width and the Hyperbolic Interpretation Thereof

To begin with, everyone agrees that a wider mouth than average is ideal. It's a basic dimorphic feature and is generally symptomatic of well developed maxilla. It appears to me that there are two prevailing understandings of what the ideal mouth width is for any particular individual. That...

looksmax.org

2. JFL at disregarding the correlation between intercanine width and mouth width which is literally proven by studies cuz muh this surgeon told me on IG dms that it’s “not so linear”, dude didn’t even disprove it.

3. Multiple people have reported increase in mouth width after using these mouth widening devices, albeit temporal, but yeah bro since there are some brainlets that believe stupid stuff on this forum lets ignore all anecdotal evidence altogether!!!

4. And the mouth to nose width is a good ratio, your argument is stupid, we all have literally said that it’s reliable as long as you have a normal nose width, so anyone with a brain can tell you can’t just narrow your already normal nose and pretend like you don’t have a narrow mouth anymore duh.

 

[NZb6Air]

JFL at disregarding the correlation

Didn't disregard it, that correlation just proves that if u grew up with a good ICW u'll have a good lip width, it doesn't prove that increasing ICW increases lip width in adults

, albeit temporal

the only thing i found is this nigga @randomvanish who lost all his gains, you're acting as if there's thousands of people

And the mouth to nose width is a good ratio, your argument is stupid,

wdym how is getting alarplasty instead of commissuroplasty not dumb af?

 

[Pendejo]

Didn't disregard it, that correlation just proves that if u grew up with a good ICW u'll have a good lip width, it doesn't prove that increasing ICW increases lip width in adults

Well we know that changes to the underlying bone structure of the face usually affect soft tissue, so why would this be the exception?

the only thing i found is this nigga @randomvanish who lost all his gains, you're acting as if there's thousands of people

I remember streege and a few more people whose usernames I don't recall tell me they noticed changes.

wdym how is getting alarplasty instead of commissuroplasty not dumb af?

It's indeed dumb af, but it's an extremely unlikely scenario, that's my point, show me a single person with a normal nose width and a narrow mouth who went "I think I should get an alarplasty instead of a commissuroplasty" because I've not seen a single instance.

The ratio is reliable as long as you have a nose width within normal values (which is the case for the vast majority of people).

 

[NZb6Air]

Well we know that changes to the underlying bone structure of the face usually affect soft tissue, so why would this be the exception?

maybe because there's no evidence of it, specifically for icw to lip width in adults? so you ask people who have actual experience with this and they'll all tell u the same thing.
If ur goal is to widen lips then u get a 1.5k commissuroplasty rather than waste more than 10k on MSE /SARPE with false expectations

(which is the case for the vast majority of people)

not true, even less true if u include all ethnic groups, my point being we know that IPD is a more fundamental and consistent ratio than alar base, it's not even my idea, it's been the consensus forever in art and now in science

 

[NZb6Air]

Well we know that changes to the underlying bone structure of the face usually affect soft tissue, so why would this be the exception?


I remember streege and a few more people whose usernames I don't recall tell me they noticed changes.


It's indeed dumb af, but it's an extremely unlikely scenario, that's my point, show me a single person with a normal nose width and a narrow mouth who went "I think I should get an alarplasty instead of a commissuroplasty" because I've not seen a single instance.

The ratio is reliable as long as you have a nose width within normal values (which is the case for the vast majority of people).

Technical Strategies - Techniques in Mouth Widening Surgery - Explore Plastic Surgery

Successful mouth widening is a full thickness tissue transposition where a successful scar outcome depends on deep tissue removal and layered suture closure.

exploreplasticsurgery.com

 

[Bread&Butter]

18+ / Leanmaxxed Only

​

The mouth or lip width is the distance between the oral commissures.

Spoiler: Lip anatomy and terminology :

1 Philtrum
2 Philtral ridges/columns
3 Cupid’s bow
4 High points of the vermilion (bilateral)
5 White roll
6 Upper lip vermilion
7 Upper lip tubercle
8 Vermilion border (mucocutaneous junction)
9 Lower lip vermilion
10 Oral (labial) commissures
11 Nasolabial groove
12 Mentolabial groove

View attachment 3176634​

Obviously, this is to be considered only after having addressed your maxilla (projection & palate width¹), teeth normalization & lip tonicity. (it's all related)

FIRST LET'S GET THIS OUT OF THE WAY :
How to tell you need orthognathic and/or orthodontic work for your lips aesthetics

Lip Curvature :
Upper lip curvature (frontal view): the mid-philtrum height and bilateral oral commissure heights should be approximately equal in adults with the lips lightly in contact.

View attachment 3177487
For example :
A significantly shorter mid-philtrum height compared with commissure height in an adult result in upper lip line morphology referred to as an inverted arc.

View attachment 3177488View attachment 3177692
According to Dr.Naini :
The contour of the upper and lower lips at rest may resemble an inverted arc in a number of conditions, giving the patient the appearance of a frown:

1 - Maxillary or midfacial hypoplasia: The unintentionally aggressive appearance particularly common in ‘ Class III ’ patients is due to this inverted arc, secondary to maxillary hypoplasia. Management requires maxillary advancement.

2- Lowering/drooping of the oral commissures as a result of ageing: Management requires rhytidectomy (facelift).

Lip tonicity :

It refers to the muscular tone of the lips and it is easily predictable by the underlying jaw structure and, subsequently, teeth alignment.

For example :

Class 2 malocclusion will often lead to hyperactivity of the lower lip :

View attachment 3177547

A more severe class 2 will often lead to upper lip hypotonicity :

View attachment 3177552

Bimaxillary protrusion will often lead to limp or flaccid lips :

View attachment 3177653

Correction of the underlying deformity allows normal lip function and often results in the upper lip developing normal tonicity.

Upper lip height (long philtrumcels) :

View attachment 3177685

Don't forget that the skull is a 3D object and that includes lips so a projection and even CCW rotation of the maxilla would lower perceived upper lip height @Clavicular and expose more upper lip vermilion. However, it probably won't help your lip width since the crucial growth period has been missed. I'd need @RealSurgerymax opinion on this since he has actual experience with multipiece Lefort 1's.

With considerations to thick BBC upper lips which tend to be less indicative/more camouflaging of the underlying teeth and jaw structures, so get scans ig
View attachment 3177493




Now that we've ruled out dentofacial deformities which is the reason most of us are ugly , it is still possible to have bad lip width without any skeletal problem due to genetics (), aging or soft tissue asymmetry.

What's an ideal lip width?

This nigga da Vinci thinks it should align with IPD in a well proportioned face

View attachment 3177704View attachment 3177706

which is correct bro

View attachment 3177707View attachment 3177708View attachment 3177709
View attachment 3177719View attachment 3177722View attachment 3177733


What are the physiognomical advantages of an ideal lip width / Why bother ?

First of all it's a baby trait² and babyfacedness is negatively correlated with attractiveness, same logic as hollow cheeks : "Particular attention has been paid to facial features which distinguish infants from adults. " B a b y i s h " or infantile facial features include a high and protruding forehead, large eyes placed in the middle of the face, a small nose and mouth, and fat cheeks (Gardner & Wallach, 1965; Hess, 1970)."


i.e. the chérubin look is undesirable for adults, it's what makes us invisible (like actually this is the reason subhumans are invisible)
View attachment 3178365
"As Zebrowitz (1997) noted, ‘‘a baby’s face is disarming’’ (p.64). Decades of research have shown that baby-faced adults are perceived as being more warm, trustworthy, and innocent than mature-faced adults (for a review, see Zebrowitz, 1997). They are also treated with greater patience, sensitivity, and compassion. For example, studies have demonstrated that baby-faced offenders tend to receive more lenient sentences than mature-faced offenders for certain types of crimes (e.g., Berry & Zebrowitz-McArthur, 1988). Studies have also found that baby-faced individuals are more persuasive than mature-faced individuals when trustworthiness is uncertain (Brownlow, 1992), and that corporations with baby-faced spokespeople are trusted more than those with mature-faced spokespeople during a mild public-relations crisis (Gorn, Jiang, & Johar, 2008). However, there are costs to the tenderness that a baby face engenders. Like babies, baby-faced adults are perceived as being incompetent and weak. Consequently, research has suggested that babyfaceness may be a liability for people striving to attain high positions of leadership in government (Zebrowitz & Montepare, 2005) and industry (Rule & Ambady, 2008)."³
Which is fine if you're femboymaxxing I guess

Secondly, it is a sign of physical formidability which then links it to leadership, the current evolutionary hypothesis being that canine tooth size and ICW is positively correlated with a wider mouth and big dimorphic canines (thus mouth) correlate with male physical combat and dominance in primates ⁴˒⁵
View attachment 3177444
Indeed, mouth width positively correlates with perceived leadership ability and actual leadership performance in humans⁶

some cagefuel I stumbled upon in a study analyzing the Facial Anthropometric Data of Korean Pilots for Oxygen Mask Design and pilots mog civilians for some reason (they just look the part)⁷ @mug



Disproving the usual copes :

JUST GET MSE BRO, first of all, only a few orthos provide it ( https://www.moonmse.com/distributors-1 ), it's expensive af (quoted 16k USD by Dr. Sheri Salartash), it can fail and the expansion could be asymmetric with 0 evidence of it leading to an increase in lip width, let alone in adults unless you have some death tier palate width or go way overboard and bugsbunnymax like this nigga

View attachment 3178079


THEN JUST GET SARPE LOL : This is the GOAT Ramieri in person here :
View attachment 3178063


LIP DEVICE :

like @Angutoid 's

My New Mouth Widening Invention Without Smile Lines

So this is how it looks like: I could make it more complicated but i wanted it to cost less so every narrow mouthcel could benefit. Wear this overnight!!! You need 2 more things (1 if you don't care about smile lines) to use with this: A rubber band (Smaller the size more the pressure is)...

looksmax.org

or the ones displayed in @RecessedPrettyboy 's thread

Mouth Widening Appliances

Mouth Widening Appliance 3d models for 3d printing Now before someone asks How do I print it if I dont have a 3d printer? Just go to a 3d printing service store and print it. simple and shoudnt be expensive at all Here are the different sizes: 7cm: https://www.tinkercad.com/things/2ZfCaY9upiy...

looksmax.org

or FacialFlex's https://www.craniorehab.com/Facial-Flex-Adult-Microstomia-Prevention-Appliance.html

Well, first of all, none of them are arguing for their efficacy , so i'll try to play devil's advocate :

Potential argument 1 : Lip tribe bro

View attachment 3178292
Well that's what ends up happening :

View attachment 3178293
View attachment 3178294

Potential argument 2 : Facial Flex

Well that one is specifically designed to prevent and manage microstomia i.e. we're talking about scarring or fibrosis here (= for it not to relapse) not to expand normal healthy tissue @Pendejo

Potential argument 3 : Anecdotal

People believe many things like iris color changes due to a raw meat diet @slavicpsycho, carbohydrate abstinence leading to optical superpowers @Never Get Up , mewing to increase lefort 3 area projection but these are "relatively" harmless except Bonesmashing stop it bro @Zeta @Clavicular

A too strong or improper lip expansion session could cause damage to the delicate tissues of the lips, tearing of the fragile mucous membranes which could lead to infections, muscle strain which would cause chronic fatigue or spasms, nerve irritation, it could have an impact on the alignment of the teeth, the health of gums, etc. So many unkown and very undesirable consequences that simple anecdotes can't logically outweigh.

What the fuck to do then ?

Commissuroplasty
I'm sure you're already vaguely familiar with this procedure, the main goal of this procedure is to maintain lip competence, it's a very quick and effective surgery though : it doesn't need complexe techniques.

You can do it in 2 ways⁸ :
The simplest being : Buccal mucosal advancement


The alternative being : Myomucosal advancement flap


OK BRO but who tf performs it bro even and how much ?
SPAIN : https://mallorcamedicalgroup.com/en/procedures/plastic-surgery/facial-surgery/comisuroplasty/
Price : 1k€ to 2k€
TEXAS : https://planoplasticsurgery.com/lip-commissuroplasty/
Price : Get a quote yourself lil bro
I know Eppley used to perform it, he wrote on it extensively on his blog but he stopped doing it, he would be charging 800k USD anyway


Makeup
I couldn't find any makeup tutorial that does this specifically, JFL at foids btw, muh looksmax gender, they always just increase lip vertical size like some retards actual

Just imagine for me that you're doing a commissuroplasty but with makeup
You're gonna need first concelear for two reasons :
1- to blur the actual natural edges of your mouth
2- to create a fake new vermillion border

An eyeshadow brush :
to blend-in the concealer

Lip liner :
You're gonna overline your lips slightly past the natural commissure and extend the line just beyoned the natural edge but don't do overdo it to avoid pufferfishmaxxing

Lipstick as cherry chapstick wouldn't be able to fill :
You're gonna fill in your newly accquired vermillion with a matching lipstick, matte lipstick would work better since it'll make it look sharper, you want lighter in the center and darker in the outer corners to give a gradient effect, that will enhance the width visually, you'll understand easily if you have any drawing/coloring background

Optional : Highlighter on the cupid's bow and just below the upper lip to draw the attention to the center en enhance that gradient effect.
Contouring to further accentuate the shadow you setup with the concealer

Follow some "HOW TO GET BIGGER LIPS" tutorials on youtube to get the gist but only apply it to lateral commissures since they all jsut increase the height of the vermillions.

OR Moustache obviously :





¹Stephan, C.N., & Henneberg, M. (2003). Predicting mouth width from inter-canine width — a 75% rule. Journal of Forensic Sciences, 48, 725–727.
²Hildebrandt, K.A., & Fitzgerald, H.E. (1979). Facial feature determinants of perceived infant attractiveness. Infant Behavior & Development, 2, 329–339.
³Livingston, R.W., & Pearce, N.A. (2009). The teddy-bear effect does having a baby face benefit black chief executive officers? Psychological Science, 20, 1229–1236.
⁴Harvey, P.H., Kavanagh, M., & Clutton-Brock, T.H. (1978). Sexual dimorphism in primate teeth. Journal of Zoology, 186, 475–485.
⁵Plavcan, J.M., & van Schaik, C.P. (1992). Intrasexual competition and canine dimorphism in anthropoid primates. American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 87, 461–477.
⁶Re, D. E., & Rule, N. O. (2016). The big man has a big mouth: Mouth width correlates with perceived leadership ability and actual leadership performance.
⁷https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Data_of_Korean_Pilots_for_Oxygen_Mask_Design
⁸Parsel, S. M., & Winters, R. D. (2020). Commissuroplasty. Operative Techniques in Otolaryngology, 31(1), 33–37.

Spoiler: Tags

@Clavicular @Alexanderr @TechnoBoss @Jason Voorhees @truthhurts @greycel @sb23 @Haseeb @truthhurts @PeakIncels @UZB_Strebl @MA_ascender @SubhumanForever @kaligula567 @enchanted_elixir @Blackgymmax @Rea @HarrierDuBois

Quick edit : the 1.6 with alar base is a shit measurement for ideal lip width cause ala size isn't a key feature in aesthetic cause then you would just get alarplasty with a shit mouth width but that will look like pure dogshit

High effort

 

[nosecel (sec acc)]

1. Mouth width should be wider than ICD but never as wide as IPD (unless you are a cyclops, but then you should stop worrying about mouth width and get shotgun implants instead tbhngl)

View attachment 3186256

A Note on the Ideal Mouth Width and the Hyperbolic Interpretation Thereof

To begin with, everyone agrees that a wider mouth than average is ideal. It's a basic dimorphic feature and is generally symptomatic of well developed maxilla. It appears to me that there are two prevailing understandings of what the ideal mouth width is for any particular individual. That...

looksmax.org

2. JFL at disregarding the correlation between intercanine width and mouth width which is literally proven by studies cuz muh this surgeon told me on IG dms that it’s “not so linear”, dude didn’t even disprove it.

3. Multiple people have reported increase in mouth width after using these mouth widening devices, albeit temporal, but yeah bro since there are some brainlets that believe stupid stuff on this forum lets ignore all anecdotal evidence altogether!!!

4. And the mouth to nose width is a good ratio, your argument is stupid, we all have literally said that it’s reliable as long as you have a normal nose width, so anyone with a brain can tell you can’t just narrow your already normal nose and pretend like you don’t have a narrow mouth anymore duh.

is it nadal on ur pfp jfl i forgot tenis

 

[Pendejo]

is it nadal on ur pfp jfl i forgot tenis

Fognini.

 

[nosecel (sec acc)]

Fognini.

damn i only know djokovic nadal zverev alcazar tsitsipas federer rud or whatever his name was the norwegian dude prob more but forgot names , looks mogger in this pic tbh, also do u think palate expander could make lips wider?

 

[Dooley]

Erm…I’m the real Varg

Cope.

 

[zuku]

Will ascend me 0.5psl for sure, my mouth is so small lmao. Thank you so much nigga

 

[nosecel (sec acc)]

more like 0.25

 

[nosecel (sec acc)]

more like 0.25

 

[stancecamilo]

So to get the stretcher should I take the 3D model somewhere that does 3D printing? Are the measurements already included in the model? I don't know about the topic

 

[NZb6Air]

So to get the stretcher should I take the 3D model somewhere that does 3D printing? Are the measurements already included in the model? I don't know about the topic

my stance is that they're useless lol

 

[eyskap]

18+ / Leanmaxxed Only

​

The mouth or lip width is the distance between the oral commissures.

Spoiler: Lip anatomy and terminology :

1 Philtrum
2 Philtral ridges/columns
3 Cupid’s bow
4 High points of the vermilion (bilateral)
5 White roll
6 Upper lip vermilion
7 Upper lip tubercle
8 Vermilion border (mucocutaneous junction)
9 Lower lip vermilion
10 Oral (labial) commissures
11 Nasolabial groove
12 Mentolabial groove

View attachment 3176634​

Obviously, this is to be considered only after having addressed your maxilla (projection & palate width¹), teeth normalization & lip tonicity. (it's all related)

FIRST LET'S GET THIS OUT OF THE WAY :
How to tell you need orthognathic and/or orthodontic work for your lips aesthetics

Lip Curvature :
Upper lip curvature (frontal view): the mid-philtrum height and bilateral oral commissure heights should be approximately equal in adults with the lips lightly in contact.

View attachment 3177487
For example :
A significantly shorter mid-philtrum height compared with commissure height in an adult result in upper lip line morphology referred to as an inverted arc.

View attachment 3177488View attachment 3177692
According to Dr.Naini :
The contour of the upper and lower lips at rest may resemble an inverted arc in a number of conditions, giving the patient the appearance of a frown:

1 - Maxillary or midfacial hypoplasia: The unintentionally aggressive appearance particularly common in ‘ Class III ’ patients is due to this inverted arc, secondary to maxillary hypoplasia. Management requires maxillary advancement.

2- Lowering/drooping of the oral commissures as a result of ageing: Management requires rhytidectomy (facelift).

Lip tonicity :

It refers to the muscular tone of the lips and it is easily predictable by the underlying jaw structure and, subsequently, teeth alignment.

For example :

Class 2 malocclusion will often lead to hyperactivity of the lower lip :

View attachment 3177547

A more severe class 2 will often lead to upper lip hypotonicity :

View attachment 3177552

Bimaxillary protrusion will often lead to limp or flaccid lips :

View attachment 3177653

Correction of the underlying deformity allows normal lip function and often results in the upper lip developing normal tonicity.

Upper lip height (long philtrumcels) :

View attachment 3177685

Don't forget that the skull is a 3D object and that includes lips so a projection and even CCW rotation of the maxilla would lower perceived upper lip height @Clavicular and expose more upper lip vermilion. However, it probably won't help your lip width since the crucial growth period has been missed. I'd need @RealSurgerymax opinion on this since he has actual experience with multipiece Lefort 1's.

With considerations to thick BBC upper lips which tend to be less indicative/more camouflaging of the underlying teeth and jaw structures, so get scans ig
View attachment 3177493




Now that we've ruled out dentofacial deformities which is the reason most of us are ugly , it is still possible to have bad lip width without any skeletal problem due to genetics (), aging or soft tissue asymmetry.

What's an ideal lip width?

This nigga da Vinci thinks it should align with IPD in a well proportioned face

View attachment 3177704View attachment 3177706

which is correct bro

View attachment 3177707View attachment 3177708View attachment 3177709
View attachment 3177719View attachment 3177722View attachment 3177733


What are the physiognomical advantages of an ideal lip width / Why bother ?

First of all it's a baby trait² and babyfacedness is negatively correlated with attractiveness, same logic as hollow cheeks : "Particular attention has been paid to facial features which distinguish infants from adults. " B a b y i s h " or infantile facial features include a high and protruding forehead, large eyes placed in the middle of the face, a small nose and mouth, and fat cheeks (Gardner & Wallach, 1965; Hess, 1970)."


i.e. the chérubin look is undesirable for adults, it's what makes us invisible (like actually this is the reason subhumans are invisible)
View attachment 3178365
"As Zebrowitz (1997) noted, ‘‘a baby’s face is disarming’’ (p.64). Decades of research have shown that baby-faced adults are perceived as being more warm, trustworthy, and innocent than mature-faced adults (for a review, see Zebrowitz, 1997). They are also treated with greater patience, sensitivity, and compassion. For example, studies have demonstrated that baby-faced offenders tend to receive more lenient sentences than mature-faced offenders for certain types of crimes (e.g., Berry & Zebrowitz-McArthur, 1988). Studies have also found that baby-faced individuals are more persuasive than mature-faced individuals when trustworthiness is uncertain (Brownlow, 1992), and that corporations with baby-faced spokespeople are trusted more than those with mature-faced spokespeople during a mild public-relations crisis (Gorn, Jiang, & Johar, 2008). However, there are costs to the tenderness that a baby face engenders. Like babies, baby-faced adults are perceived as being incompetent and weak. Consequently, research has suggested that babyfaceness may be a liability for people striving to attain high positions of leadership in government (Zebrowitz & Montepare, 2005) and industry (Rule & Ambady, 2008)."³
Which is fine if you're femboymaxxing I guess

Secondly, it is a sign of physical formidability which then links it to leadership, the current evolutionary hypothesis being that canine tooth size and ICW is positively correlated with a wider mouth and big dimorphic canines (thus mouth) correlate with male physical combat and dominance in primates ⁴˒⁵
View attachment 3177444
Indeed, mouth width positively correlates with perceived leadership ability and actual leadership performance in humans⁶

some cagefuel I stumbled upon in a study analyzing the Facial Anthropometric Data of Korean Pilots for Oxygen Mask Design and pilots mog civilians for some reason (they just look the part)⁷ @mug



Disproving the usual copes :

JUST GET MSE BRO, first of all, only a few orthos provide it ( https://www.moonmse.com/distributors-1 ), it's expensive af (quoted 16k USD by Dr. Sheri Salartash), it can fail and the expansion could be asymmetric with 0 evidence of it leading to an increase in lip width, let alone in adults unless you have some death tier palate width or go way overboard and bugsbunnymax like this nigga

View attachment 3178079


THEN JUST GET SARPE LOL : This is the GOAT Ramieri in person here :
View attachment 3178063


LIP DEVICE :

like @Angutoid 's

My New Mouth Widening Invention Without Smile Lines

So this is how it looks like: I could make it more complicated but i wanted it to cost less so every narrow mouthcel could benefit. Wear this overnight!!! You need 2 more things (1 if you don't care about smile lines) to use with this: A rubber band (Smaller the size more the pressure is)...

looksmax.org

or the ones displayed in @RecessedPrettyboy 's thread

Mouth Widening Appliances

Mouth Widening Appliance 3d models for 3d printing Now before someone asks How do I print it if I dont have a 3d printer? Just go to a 3d printing service store and print it. simple and shoudnt be expensive at all Here are the different sizes: 7cm: https://www.tinkercad.com/things/2ZfCaY9upiy...

looksmax.org

or FacialFlex's https://www.craniorehab.com/Facial-Flex-Adult-Microstomia-Prevention-Appliance.html

Well, first of all, none of them are arguing for their efficacy , so i'll try to play devil's advocate :

Potential argument 1 : Lip tribe bro

View attachment 3178292
Well that's what ends up happening :

View attachment 3178293
View attachment 3178294

Potential argument 2 : Facial Flex

Well that one is specifically designed to prevent and manage microstomia i.e. we're talking about scarring or fibrosis here (= for it not to relapse) not to expand normal healthy tissue @Pendejo

Potential argument 3 : Anecdotal

People believe many things like iris color changes due to a raw meat diet @slavicpsycho, carbohydrate abstinence leading to optical superpowers @Never Get Up , mewing to increase lefort 3 area projection but these are "relatively" harmless except Bonesmashing stop it bro @Zeta @Clavicular

A too strong or improper lip expansion session could cause damage to the delicate tissues of the lips, tearing of the fragile mucous membranes which could lead to infections, muscle strain which would cause chronic fatigue or spasms, nerve irritation, it could have an impact on the alignment of the teeth, the health of gums, etc. So many unkown and very undesirable consequences that simple anecdotes can't logically outweigh.

What the fuck to do then ?

Commissuroplasty
I'm sure you're already vaguely familiar with this procedure, the main goal of this procedure is to maintain lip competence, it's a very quick and effective surgery though : it doesn't need complexe techniques.

You can do it in 2 ways⁸ :
The simplest being : Buccal mucosal advancement


The alternative being : Myomucosal advancement flap


OK BRO but who tf performs it bro even and how much ?
SPAIN : https://mallorcamedicalgroup.com/en/procedures/plastic-surgery/facial-surgery/comisuroplasty/
Price : 1k€ to 2k€
TEXAS : https://planoplasticsurgery.com/lip-commissuroplasty/
Price : Get a quote yourself lil bro
I know Eppley used to perform it, he wrote on it extensively on his blog but he stopped doing it, he would be charging 800k USD anyway


Makeup
I couldn't find any makeup tutorial that does this specifically, JFL at foids btw, muh looksmax gender, they always just increase lip vertical size like some retards actual

Just imagine for me that you're doing a commissuroplasty but with makeup
You're gonna need first concelear for two reasons :
1- to blur the actual natural edges of your mouth
2- to create a fake new vermillion border

An eyeshadow brush :
to blend-in the concealer

Lip liner :
You're gonna overline your lips slightly past the natural commissure and extend the line just beyoned the natural edge but don't do overdo it to avoid pufferfishmaxxing

Lipstick as cherry chapstick wouldn't be able to fill :
You're gonna fill in your newly accquired vermillion with a matching lipstick, matte lipstick would work better since it'll make it look sharper, you want lighter in the center and darker in the outer corners to give a gradient effect, that will enhance the width visually, you'll understand easily if you have any drawing/coloring background

Optional : Highlighter on the cupid's bow and just below the upper lip to draw the attention to the center en enhance that gradient effect.
Contouring to further accentuate the shadow you setup with the concealer

Follow some "HOW TO GET BIGGER LIPS" tutorials on youtube to get the gist but only apply it to lateral commissures since they all jsut increase the height of the vermillions.

OR Moustache obviously :





¹Stephan, C.N., & Henneberg, M. (2003). Predicting mouth width from inter-canine width — a 75% rule. Journal of Forensic Sciences, 48, 725–727.
²Hildebrandt, K.A., & Fitzgerald, H.E. (1979). Facial feature determinants of perceived infant attractiveness. Infant Behavior & Development, 2, 329–339.
³Livingston, R.W., & Pearce, N.A. (2009). The teddy-bear effect does having a baby face benefit black chief executive officers? Psychological Science, 20, 1229–1236.
⁴Harvey, P.H., Kavanagh, M., & Clutton-Brock, T.H. (1978). Sexual dimorphism in primate teeth. Journal of Zoology, 186, 475–485.
⁵Plavcan, J.M., & van Schaik, C.P. (1992). Intrasexual competition and canine dimorphism in anthropoid primates. American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 87, 461–477.
⁶Re, D. E., & Rule, N. O. (2016). The big man has a big mouth: Mouth width correlates with perceived leadership ability and actual leadership performance.
⁷https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Data_of_Korean_Pilots_for_Oxygen_Mask_Design
⁸Parsel, S. M., & Winters, R. D. (2020). Commissuroplasty. Operative Techniques in Otolaryngology, 31(1), 33–37.

Spoiler: Tags

@Clavicular @Alexanderr @TechnoBoss @Jason Voorhees @truthhurts @greycel @sb23 @Haseeb @truthhurts @PeakIncels @UZB_Strebl @MA_ascender @SubhumanForever @kaligula567 @enchanted_elixir @Blackgymmax @Rea @HarrierDuBois

Quick edit : the 1.6 with alar base is a shit measurement for ideal lip width cause ala size isn't a key feature in aesthetic cause then you would just get alarplasty with a shit mouth width but that will look like pure dogshit

good thread bro

 

[ijazal]

good thread akhi

will leanmaxx change perceived lip width as well?

 

[NZb6Air]

good thread akhi

will leanmaxx change perceived lip width as well?

maybe if u're obesemaxxed could change perceived lip width

 

[lestoa]

what nigger your thread is in botb

mirin

 

[Giorgio]

thoughs on bimax in relation to lip width?
I think an increase is possible, probably not by a lot, I'll probably supplement that with stretching
bimax + widening intracanine distance + stretching could move the needle

what about increasing lip size? what would be the best approach to increase lip size by like 15 or 20% and not end up looking like a faggot?

 

[NZb6Air]

thoughs on bimax in relation to lip width?
I think an increase is possible, probably not by a lot, I'll probably supplement that with stretching
bimax + widening intracanine distance + stretching could move the needle

what about increasing lip size? what would be the best approach to increase lip size by like 15 or 20% and not end up looking like a faggot?

I tried to address this in the first part, yes bimaxillary movements could alter the position of your lips by either instantly exposing more vermilion (red part) via rotation or in some cases simply advancement or by giving them the dentoalveolar support they used to lack which would strengthen back overtime to blueprint levels (which would make them "bigger")

I don't think an intercanine width increase leads to a lip width increase and that's what Ramieri thinks also (he has an insane amount of experience with increasing ICW, he does SARPE, custom MARPE, Lefort 1 Segmentations)

Stretching can work in the short term but it will always relapse, it's annoying and i think it's too risky so don't do it

If after some time post-bimax (lip strengthening period) you still want to increase lip height then try lipstick and go over the vermilion border, it's common, if u like it and want to actually increase then try a lip flip (botox / temporary), if you still legit like it then try a conservative lip lift (chance u're gonna look overdone so be careful) also if u get a lip lift you can't get a commissuroplasty later (Epley's opinion) however you can make it so the lip lift gives 1 to 3 mm of lip width with the right techniques

The lip height problem, tho, isn't just about pure vermilion exposure it's also about perceived philtrum length which a maxillary advancement could reduce

That's why u have to wait

 

[Itssooverforme123]

18+ / Leanmaxxed Only

​

The mouth or lip width is the distance between the oral commissures.

Spoiler: Lip anatomy and terminology :

1 Philtrum
2 Philtral ridges/columns
3 Cupid’s bow
4 High points of the vermilion (bilateral)
5 White roll
6 Upper lip vermilion
7 Upper lip tubercle
8 Vermilion border (mucocutaneous junction)
9 Lower lip vermilion
10 Oral (labial) commissures
11 Nasolabial groove
12 Mentolabial groove

View attachment 3176634​

Obviously, this is to be considered only after having addressed your maxilla (projection & palate width¹), teeth normalization & lip tonicity. (it's all related)

FIRST LET'S GET THIS OUT OF THE WAY :
How to tell you need orthognathic and/or orthodontic work for your lips aesthetics

Lip Curvature :
Upper lip curvature (frontal view): the mid-philtrum height and bilateral oral commissure heights should be approximately equal in adults with the lips lightly in contact.

View attachment 3177487
For example :
A significantly shorter mid-philtrum height compared with commissure height in an adult result in upper lip line morphology referred to as an inverted arc.

View attachment 3177488View attachment 3177692
According to Dr.Naini :
The contour of the upper and lower lips at rest may resemble an inverted arc in a number of conditions, giving the patient the appearance of a frown:

1 - Maxillary or midfacial hypoplasia: The unintentionally aggressive appearance particularly common in ‘ Class III ’ patients is due to this inverted arc, secondary to maxillary hypoplasia. Management requires maxillary advancement.

2- Lowering/drooping of the oral commissures as a result of ageing: Management requires rhytidectomy (facelift).

Lip tonicity :

It refers to the muscular tone of the lips and it is easily predictable by the underlying jaw structure and, subsequently, teeth alignment.

For example :

Class 2 malocclusion will often lead to hyperactivity of the lower lip :

View attachment 3177547

A more severe class 2 will often lead to upper lip hypotonicity :

View attachment 3177552

Bimaxillary protrusion will often lead to limp or flaccid lips :

View attachment 3177653

Correction of the underlying deformity allows normal lip function and often results in the upper lip developing normal tonicity.

Upper lip height (long philtrumcels) :

View attachment 3177685

Don't forget that the skull is a 3D object and that includes lips so a projection and even CCW rotation of the maxilla would lower perceived upper lip height @Clavicular and expose more upper lip vermilion. However, it probably won't help your lip width since the crucial growth period has been missed. I'd need @RealSurgerymax opinion on this since he has actual experience with multipiece Lefort 1's.

With considerations to thick BBC upper lips which tend to be less indicative/more camouflaging of the underlying teeth and jaw structures, so get scans ig
View attachment 3177493




Now that we've ruled out dentofacial deformities which is the reason most of us are ugly , it is still possible to have bad lip width without any skeletal problem due to genetics (), aging or soft tissue asymmetry.

What's an ideal lip width?

This nigga da Vinci thinks it should align with IPD in a well proportioned face

View attachment 3177704View attachment 3177706

which is correct bro

View attachment 3177707View attachment 3177708View attachment 3177709
View attachment 3177719View attachment 3177722View attachment 3177733


What are the physiognomical advantages of an ideal lip width / Why bother ?

First of all it's a baby trait² and babyfacedness is negatively correlated with attractiveness, same logic as hollow cheeks : "Particular attention has been paid to facial features which distinguish infants from adults. " B a b y i s h " or infantile facial features include a high and protruding forehead, large eyes placed in the middle of the face, a small nose and mouth, and fat cheeks (Gardner & Wallach, 1965; Hess, 1970)."


i.e. the chérubin look is undesirable for adults, it's what makes us invisible (like actually this is the reason subhumans are invisible)
View attachment 3178365
"As Zebrowitz (1997) noted, ‘‘a baby’s face is disarming’’ (p.64). Decades of research have shown that baby-faced adults are perceived as being more warm, trustworthy, and innocent than mature-faced adults (for a review, see Zebrowitz, 1997). They are also treated with greater patience, sensitivity, and compassion. For example, studies have demonstrated that baby-faced offenders tend to receive more lenient sentences than mature-faced offenders for certain types of crimes (e.g., Berry & Zebrowitz-McArthur, 1988). Studies have also found that baby-faced individuals are more persuasive than mature-faced individuals when trustworthiness is uncertain (Brownlow, 1992), and that corporations with baby-faced spokespeople are trusted more than those with mature-faced spokespeople during a mild public-relations crisis (Gorn, Jiang, & Johar, 2008). However, there are costs to the tenderness that a baby face engenders. Like babies, baby-faced adults are perceived as being incompetent and weak. Consequently, research has suggested that babyfaceness may be a liability for people striving to attain high positions of leadership in government (Zebrowitz & Montepare, 2005) and industry (Rule & Ambady, 2008)."³
Which is fine if you're femboymaxxing I guess

Secondly, it is a sign of physical formidability which then links it to leadership, the current evolutionary hypothesis being that canine tooth size and ICW is positively correlated with a wider mouth and big dimorphic canines (thus mouth) correlate with male physical combat and dominance in primates ⁴˒⁵
View attachment 3177444
Indeed, mouth width positively correlates with perceived leadership ability and actual leadership performance in humans⁶

some cagefuel I stumbled upon in a study analyzing the Facial Anthropometric Data of Korean Pilots for Oxygen Mask Design and pilots mog civilians for some reason (they just look the part)⁷ @mug



Disproving the usual copes :

JUST GET MSE BRO, first of all, only a few orthos provide it ( https://www.moonmse.com/distributors-1 ), it's expensive af (quoted 16k USD by Dr. Sheri Salartash), it can fail and the expansion could be asymmetric with 0 evidence of it leading to an increase in lip width, let alone in adults unless you have some death tier palate width or go way overboard and bugsbunnymax like this nigga

View attachment 3178079


THEN JUST GET SARPE LOL : This is the GOAT Ramieri in person here :
View attachment 3178063


LIP DEVICE :

like @Angutoid 's

My New Mouth Widening Invention Without Smile Lines

So this is how it looks like: I could make it more complicated but i wanted it to cost less so every narrow mouthcel could benefit. Wear this overnight!!! You need 2 more things (1 if you don't care about smile lines) to use with this: A rubber band (Smaller the size more the pressure is)...

looksmax.org

or the ones displayed in @RecessedPrettyboy 's thread

Mouth Widening Appliances

Mouth Widening Appliance 3d models for 3d printing Now before someone asks How do I print it if I dont have a 3d printer? Just go to a 3d printing service store and print it. simple and shoudnt be expensive at all Here are the different sizes: 7cm: https://www.tinkercad.com/things/2ZfCaY9upiy...

looksmax.org

or FacialFlex's https://www.craniorehab.com/Facial-Flex-Adult-Microstomia-Prevention-Appliance.html

Well, first of all, none of them are arguing for their efficacy , so i'll try to play devil's advocate :

Potential argument 1 : Lip tribe bro

View attachment 3178292
Well that's what ends up happening :

View attachment 3178293
View attachment 3178294

Potential argument 2 : Facial Flex

Well that one is specifically designed to prevent and manage microstomia i.e. we're talking about scarring or fibrosis here (= for it not to relapse) not to expand normal healthy tissue @Pendejo

Potential argument 3 : Anecdotal

People believe many things like iris color changes due to a raw meat diet @slavicpsycho, carbohydrate abstinence leading to optical superpowers @Never Get Up , mewing to increase lefort 3 area projection but these are "relatively" harmless except Bonesmashing stop it bro @Zeta @Clavicular

A too strong or improper lip expansion session could cause damage to the delicate tissues of the lips, tearing of the fragile mucous membranes which could lead to infections, muscle strain which would cause chronic fatigue or spasms, nerve irritation, it could have an impact on the alignment of the teeth, the health of gums, etc. So many unkown and very undesirable consequences that simple anecdotes can't logically outweigh.

What the fuck to do then ?

Commissuroplasty
I'm sure you're already vaguely familiar with this procedure, the main goal of this procedure is to maintain lip competence, it's a very quick and effective surgery though : it doesn't need complexe techniques.

You can do it in 2 ways⁸ :
The simplest being : Buccal mucosal advancement


The alternative being : Myomucosal advancement flap


OK BRO but who tf performs it bro even and how much ?
SPAIN : https://mallorcamedicalgroup.com/en/procedures/plastic-surgery/facial-surgery/comisuroplasty/
Price : 1k€ to 2k€
TEXAS : https://planoplasticsurgery.com/lip-commissuroplasty/
Price : Get a quote yourself lil bro
I know Eppley used to perform it, he wrote on it extensively on his blog but he stopped doing it, he would be charging 800k USD anyway


Makeup
I couldn't find any makeup tutorial that does this specifically, JFL at foids btw, muh looksmax gender, they always just increase lip vertical size like some retards actual

Just imagine for me that you're doing a commissuroplasty but with makeup
You're gonna need first concelear for two reasons :
1- to blur the actual natural edges of your mouth
2- to create a fake new vermillion border

An eyeshadow brush :
to blend-in the concealer

Lip liner :
You're gonna overline your lips slightly past the natural commissure and extend the line just beyoned the natural edge but don't do overdo it to avoid pufferfishmaxxing

Lipstick as cherry chapstick wouldn't be able to fill :
You're gonna fill in your newly accquired vermillion with a matching lipstick, matte lipstick would work better since it'll make it look sharper, you want lighter in the center and darker in the outer corners to give a gradient effect, that will enhance the width visually, you'll understand easily if you have any drawing/coloring background

Optional : Highlighter on the cupid's bow and just below the upper lip to draw the attention to the center en enhance that gradient effect.
Contouring to further accentuate the shadow you setup with the concealer

Follow some "HOW TO GET BIGGER LIPS" tutorials on youtube to get the gist but only apply it to lateral commissures since they all jsut increase the height of the vermillions.

OR Moustache obviously :





¹Stephan, C.N., & Henneberg, M. (2003). Predicting mouth width from inter-canine width — a 75% rule. Journal of Forensic Sciences, 48, 725–727.
²Hildebrandt, K.A., & Fitzgerald, H.E. (1979). Facial feature determinants of perceived infant attractiveness. Infant Behavior & Development, 2, 329–339.
³Livingston, R.W., & Pearce, N.A. (2009). The teddy-bear effect does having a baby face benefit black chief executive officers? Psychological Science, 20, 1229–1236.
⁴Harvey, P.H., Kavanagh, M., & Clutton-Brock, T.H. (1978). Sexual dimorphism in primate teeth. Journal of Zoology, 186, 475–485.
⁵Plavcan, J.M., & van Schaik, C.P. (1992). Intrasexual competition and canine dimorphism in anthropoid primates. American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 87, 461–477.
⁶Re, D. E., & Rule, N. O. (2016). The big man has a big mouth: Mouth width correlates with perceived leadership ability and actual leadership performance.
⁷https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Data_of_Korean_Pilots_for_Oxygen_Mask_Design
⁸Parsel, S. M., & Winters, R. D. (2020). Commissuroplasty. Operative Techniques in Otolaryngology, 31(1), 33–37.

Spoiler: Tags

@Clavicular @Alexanderr @TechnoBoss @Jason Voorhees @truthhurts @greycel @sb23 @Haseeb @truthhurts @PeakIncels @UZB_Strebl @MA_ascender @SubhumanForever @kaligula567 @enchanted_elixir @Blackgymmax @Rea @HarrierDuBois

Quick edit : the 1.6 with alar base is a shit measurement for ideal lip width cause ala size isn't a key feature in aesthetic cause then you would just get alarplasty with a shit mouth width but that will look like pure dogshit

thx

 

[zaideas]

to long did not read where is the summary

 

[Alessandro Eccelso]

18+ / Leanmaxxed Only

​

The mouth or lip width is the distance between the oral commissures.

Spoiler: Lip anatomy and terminology :

1 Philtrum
2 Philtral ridges/columns
3 Cupid’s bow
4 High points of the vermilion (bilateral)
5 White roll
6 Upper lip vermilion
7 Upper lip tubercle
8 Vermilion border (mucocutaneous junction)
9 Lower lip vermilion
10 Oral (labial) commissures
11 Nasolabial groove
12 Mentolabial groove

View attachment 3176634​

Obviously, this is to be considered only after having addressed your maxilla (projection & palate width¹), teeth normalization & lip tonicity. (it's all related)

FIRST LET'S GET THIS OUT OF THE WAY :
How to tell you need orthognathic and/or orthodontic work for your lips aesthetics

Lip Curvature :
Upper lip curvature (frontal view): the mid-philtrum height and bilateral oral commissure heights should be approximately equal in adults with the lips lightly in contact.

View attachment 3177487
For example :
A significantly shorter mid-philtrum height compared with commissure height in an adult result in upper lip line morphology referred to as an inverted arc.

View attachment 3177488View attachment 3177692
According to Dr.Naini :
The contour of the upper and lower lips at rest may resemble an inverted arc in a number of conditions, giving the patient the appearance of a frown:

1 - Maxillary or midfacial hypoplasia: The unintentionally aggressive appearance particularly common in ‘ Class III ’ patients is due to this inverted arc, secondary to maxillary hypoplasia. Management requires maxillary advancement.

2- Lowering/drooping of the oral commissures as a result of ageing: Management requires rhytidectomy (facelift).

Lip tonicity :

It refers to the muscular tone of the lips and it is easily predictable by the underlying jaw structure and, subsequently, teeth alignment.

For example :

Class 2 malocclusion will often lead to hyperactivity of the lower lip :

View attachment 3177547

A more severe class 2 will often lead to upper lip hypotonicity :

View attachment 3177552

Bimaxillary protrusion will often lead to limp or flaccid lips :

View attachment 3177653

Correction of the underlying deformity allows normal lip function and often results in the upper lip developing normal tonicity.

Upper lip height (long philtrumcels) :

View attachment 3177685

Don't forget that the skull is a 3D object and that includes lips so a projection and even CCW rotation of the maxilla would lower perceived upper lip height @Clavicular and expose more upper lip vermilion. However, it probably won't help your lip width since the crucial growth period has been missed. I'd need @RealSurgerymax opinion on this since he has actual experience with multipiece Lefort 1's.

With considerations to thick BBC upper lips which tend to be less indicative/more camouflaging of the underlying teeth and jaw structures, so get scans ig
View attachment 3177493




Now that we've ruled out dentofacial deformities which is the reason most of us are ugly , it is still possible to have bad lip width without any skeletal problem due to genetics (), aging or soft tissue asymmetry.

What's an ideal lip width?

This nigga da Vinci thinks it should align with IPD in a well proportioned face

View attachment 3177704View attachment 3177706

which is correct bro

View attachment 3177707View attachment 3177708View attachment 3177709
View attachment 3177719View attachment 3177722View attachment 3177733


What are the physiognomical advantages of an ideal lip width / Why bother ?

First of all it's a baby trait² and babyfacedness is negatively correlated with attractiveness, same logic as hollow cheeks : "Particular attention has been paid to facial features which distinguish infants from adults. " B a b y i s h " or infantile facial features include a high and protruding forehead, large eyes placed in the middle of the face, a small nose and mouth, and fat cheeks (Gardner & Wallach, 1965; Hess, 1970)."


i.e. the chérubin look is undesirable for adults, it's what makes us invisible (like actually this is the reason subhumans are invisible)
View attachment 3178365
"As Zebrowitz (1997) noted, ‘‘a baby’s face is disarming’’ (p.64). Decades of research have shown that baby-faced adults are perceived as being more warm, trustworthy, and innocent than mature-faced adults (for a review, see Zebrowitz, 1997). They are also treated with greater patience, sensitivity, and compassion. For example, studies have demonstrated that baby-faced offenders tend to receive more lenient sentences than mature-faced offenders for certain types of crimes (e.g., Berry & Zebrowitz-McArthur, 1988). Studies have also found that baby-faced individuals are more persuasive than mature-faced individuals when trustworthiness is uncertain (Brownlow, 1992), and that corporations with baby-faced spokespeople are trusted more than those with mature-faced spokespeople during a mild public-relations crisis (Gorn, Jiang, & Johar, 2008). However, there are costs to the tenderness that a baby face engenders. Like babies, baby-faced adults are perceived as being incompetent and weak. Consequently, research has suggested that babyfaceness may be a liability for people striving to attain high positions of leadership in government (Zebrowitz & Montepare, 2005) and industry (Rule & Ambady, 2008)."³
Which is fine if you're femboymaxxing I guess

Secondly, it is a sign of physical formidability which then links it to leadership, the current evolutionary hypothesis being that canine tooth size and ICW is positively correlated with a wider mouth and big dimorphic canines (thus mouth) correlate with male physical combat and dominance in primates ⁴˒⁵
View attachment 3177444
Indeed, mouth width positively correlates with perceived leadership ability and actual leadership performance in humans⁶

some cagefuel I stumbled upon in a study analyzing the Facial Anthropometric Data of Korean Pilots for Oxygen Mask Design and pilots mog civilians for some reason (they just look the part)⁷ @mug



Disproving the usual copes :

JUST GET MSE BRO, first of all, only a few orthos provide it ( https://www.moonmse.com/distributors-1 ), it's expensive af (quoted 16k USD by Dr. Sheri Salartash), it can fail and the expansion could be asymmetric with 0 evidence of it leading to an increase in lip width, let alone in adults unless you have some death tier palate width or go way overboard and bugsbunnymax like this nigga

View attachment 3178079


THEN JUST GET SARPE LOL : This is the GOAT Ramieri in person here :
View attachment 3178063


LIP DEVICE :

like @Angutoid 's

My New Mouth Widening Invention Without Smile Lines

So this is how it looks like: I could make it more complicated but i wanted it to cost less so every narrow mouthcel could benefit. Wear this overnight!!! You need 2 more things (1 if you don't care about smile lines) to use with this: A rubber band (Smaller the size more the pressure is)...

looksmax.org

or the ones displayed in @RecessedPrettyboy 's thread

Mouth Widening Appliances

Mouth Widening Appliance 3d models for 3d printing Now before someone asks How do I print it if I dont have a 3d printer? Just go to a 3d printing service store and print it. simple and shoudnt be expensive at all Here are the different sizes: 7cm: https://www.tinkercad.com/things/2ZfCaY9upiy...

looksmax.org

or FacialFlex's https://www.craniorehab.com/Facial-Flex-Adult-Microstomia-Prevention-Appliance.html

Well, first of all, none of them are arguing for their efficacy , so i'll try to play devil's advocate :

Potential argument 1 : Lip tribe bro

View attachment 3178292
Well that's what ends up happening :

View attachment 3178293
View attachment 3178294

Potential argument 2 : Facial Flex

Well that one is specifically designed to prevent and manage microstomia i.e. we're talking about scarring or fibrosis here (= for it not to relapse) not to expand normal healthy tissue @Pendejo

Potential argument 3 : Anecdotal

People believe many things like iris color changes due to a raw meat diet @slavicpsycho, carbohydrate abstinence leading to optical superpowers @Never Get Up , mewing to increase lefort 3 area projection but these are "relatively" harmless except Bonesmashing stop it bro @Zeta @Clavicular

A too strong or improper lip expansion session could cause damage to the delicate tissues of the lips, tearing of the fragile mucous membranes which could lead to infections, muscle strain which would cause chronic fatigue or spasms, nerve irritation, it could have an impact on the alignment of the teeth, the health of gums, etc. So many unkown and very undesirable consequences that simple anecdotes can't logically outweigh.

What the fuck to do then ?

Commissuroplasty
I'm sure you're already vaguely familiar with this procedure, the main goal of this procedure is to maintain lip competence, it's a very quick and effective surgery though : it doesn't need complexe techniques.

You can do it in 2 ways⁸ :
The simplest being : Buccal mucosal advancement


The alternative being : Myomucosal advancement flap


OK BRO but who tf performs it bro even and how much ?
SPAIN : https://mallorcamedicalgroup.com/en/procedures/plastic-surgery/facial-surgery/comisuroplasty/
Price : 1k€ to 2k€
TEXAS : https://planoplasticsurgery.com/lip-commissuroplasty/
Price : Get a quote yourself lil bro
I know Eppley used to perform it, he wrote on it extensively on his blog but he stopped doing it, he would be charging 800k USD anyway


Makeup
I couldn't find any makeup tutorial that does this specifically, JFL at foids btw, muh looksmax gender, they always just increase lip vertical size like some retards actual

Just imagine for me that you're doing a commissuroplasty but with makeup
You're gonna need first concelear for two reasons :
1- to blur the actual natural edges of your mouth
2- to create a fake new vermillion border

An eyeshadow brush :
to blend-in the concealer

Lip liner :
You're gonna overline your lips slightly past the natural commissure and extend the line just beyoned the natural edge but don't do overdo it to avoid pufferfishmaxxing

Lipstick as cherry chapstick wouldn't be able to fill :
You're gonna fill in your newly accquired vermillion with a matching lipstick, matte lipstick would work better since it'll make it look sharper, you want lighter in the center and darker in the outer corners to give a gradient effect, that will enhance the width visually, you'll understand easily if you have any drawing/coloring background

Optional : Highlighter on the cupid's bow and just below the upper lip to draw the attention to the center en enhance that gradient effect.
Contouring to further accentuate the shadow you setup with the concealer

Follow some "HOW TO GET BIGGER LIPS" tutorials on youtube to get the gist but only apply it to lateral commissures since they all jsut increase the height of the vermillions.

OR Moustache obviously :





¹Stephan, C.N., & Henneberg, M. (2003). Predicting mouth width from inter-canine width — a 75% rule. Journal of Forensic Sciences, 48, 725–727.
²Hildebrandt, K.A., & Fitzgerald, H.E. (1979). Facial feature determinants of perceived infant attractiveness. Infant Behavior & Development, 2, 329–339.
³Livingston, R.W., & Pearce, N.A. (2009). The teddy-bear effect does having a baby face benefit black chief executive officers? Psychological Science, 20, 1229–1236.
⁴Harvey, P.H., Kavanagh, M., & Clutton-Brock, T.H. (1978). Sexual dimorphism in primate teeth. Journal of Zoology, 186, 475–485.
⁵Plavcan, J.M., & van Schaik, C.P. (1992). Intrasexual competition and canine dimorphism in anthropoid primates. American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 87, 461–477.
⁶Re, D. E., & Rule, N. O. (2016). The big man has a big mouth: Mouth width correlates with perceived leadership ability and actual leadership performance.
⁷https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Data_of_Korean_Pilots_for_Oxygen_Mask_Design
⁸Parsel, S. M., & Winters, R. D. (2020). Commissuroplasty. Operative Techniques in Otolaryngology, 31(1), 33–37.

Spoiler: Tags

@Clavicular @Alexanderr @TechnoBoss @Jason Voorhees @truthhurts @greycel @sb23 @Haseeb @truthhurts @PeakIncels @UZB_Strebl @MA_ascender @SubhumanForever @kaligula567 @enchanted_elixir @Blackgymmax @Rea @HarrierDuBois

Quick edit : the 1.6 with alar base is a shit measurement for ideal lip width cause ala size isn't a key feature in aesthetic cause then you would just get alarplasty with a shit mouth width but that will look like pure dogshit

Bro

18+ / Leanmaxxed Only

​

The mouth or lip width is the distance between the oral commissures.

Spoiler: Lip anatomy and terminology :

1 Philtrum
2 Philtral ridges/columns
3 Cupid’s bow
4 High points of the vermilion (bilateral)
5 White roll
6 Upper lip vermilion
7 Upper lip tubercle
8 Vermilion border (mucocutaneous junction)
9 Lower lip vermilion
10 Oral (labial) commissures
11 Nasolabial groove
12 Mentolabial groove

View attachment 3176634​

Obviously, this is to be considered only after having addressed your maxilla (projection & palate width¹), teeth normalization & lip tonicity. (it's all related)

FIRST LET'S GET THIS OUT OF THE WAY :
How to tell you need orthognathic and/or orthodontic work for your lips aesthetics

Lip Curvature :
Upper lip curvature (frontal view): the mid-philtrum height and bilateral oral commissure heights should be approximately equal in adults with the lips lightly in contact.

View attachment 3177487
For example :
A significantly shorter mid-philtrum height compared with commissure height in an adult result in upper lip line morphology referred to as an inverted arc.

View attachment 3177488View attachment 3177692
According to Dr.Naini :
The contour of the upper and lower lips at rest may resemble an inverted arc in a number of conditions, giving the patient the appearance of a frown:

1 - Maxillary or midfacial hypoplasia: The unintentionally aggressive appearance particularly common in ‘ Class III ’ patients is due to this inverted arc, secondary to maxillary hypoplasia. Management requires maxillary advancement.

2- Lowering/drooping of the oral commissures as a result of ageing: Management requires rhytidectomy (facelift).

Lip tonicity :

It refers to the muscular tone of the lips and it is easily predictable by the underlying jaw structure and, subsequently, teeth alignment.

For example :

Class 2 malocclusion will often lead to hyperactivity of the lower lip :

View attachment 3177547

A more severe class 2 will often lead to upper lip hypotonicity :

View attachment 3177552

Bimaxillary protrusion will often lead to limp or flaccid lips :

View attachment 3177653

Correction of the underlying deformity allows normal lip function and often results in the upper lip developing normal tonicity.

Upper lip height (long philtrumcels) :

View attachment 3177685

Don't forget that the skull is a 3D object and that includes lips so a projection and even CCW rotation of the maxilla would lower perceived upper lip height @Clavicular and expose more upper lip vermilion. However, it probably won't help your lip width since the crucial growth period has been missed. I'd need @RealSurgerymax opinion on this since he has actual experience with multipiece Lefort 1's.

With considerations to thick BBC upper lips which tend to be less indicative/more camouflaging of the underlying teeth and jaw structures, so get scans ig
View attachment 3177493




Now that we've ruled out dentofacial deformities which is the reason most of us are ugly , it is still possible to have bad lip width without any skeletal problem due to genetics (), aging or soft tissue asymmetry.

What's an ideal lip width?

This nigga da Vinci thinks it should align with IPD in a well proportioned face

View attachment 3177704View attachment 3177706

which is correct bro

View attachment 3177707View attachment 3177708View attachment 3177709
View attachment 3177719View attachment 3177722View attachment 3177733


What are the physiognomical advantages of an ideal lip width / Why bother ?

First of all it's a baby trait² and babyfacedness is negatively correlated with attractiveness, same logic as hollow cheeks : "Particular attention has been paid to facial features which distinguish infants from adults. " B a b y i s h " or infantile facial features include a high and protruding forehead, large eyes placed in the middle of the face, a small nose and mouth, and fat cheeks (Gardner & Wallach, 1965; Hess, 1970)."


i.e. the chérubin look is undesirable for adults, it's what makes us invisible (like actually this is the reason subhumans are invisible)
View attachment 3178365
"As Zebrowitz (1997) noted, ‘‘a baby’s face is disarming’’ (p.64). Decades of research have shown that baby-faced adults are perceived as being more warm, trustworthy, and innocent than mature-faced adults (for a review, see Zebrowitz, 1997). They are also treated with greater patience, sensitivity, and compassion. For example, studies have demonstrated that baby-faced offenders tend to receive more lenient sentences than mature-faced offenders for certain types of crimes (e.g., Berry & Zebrowitz-McArthur, 1988). Studies have also found that baby-faced individuals are more persuasive than mature-faced individuals when trustworthiness is uncertain (Brownlow, 1992), and that corporations with baby-faced spokespeople are trusted more than those with mature-faced spokespeople during a mild public-relations crisis (Gorn, Jiang, & Johar, 2008). However, there are costs to the tenderness that a baby face engenders. Like babies, baby-faced adults are perceived as being incompetent and weak. Consequently, research has suggested that babyfaceness may be a liability for people striving to attain high positions of leadership in government (Zebrowitz & Montepare, 2005) and industry (Rule & Ambady, 2008)."³
Which is fine if you're femboymaxxing I guess

Secondly, it is a sign of physical formidability which then links it to leadership, the current evolutionary hypothesis being that canine tooth size and ICW is positively correlated with a wider mouth and big dimorphic canines (thus mouth) correlate with male physical combat and dominance in primates ⁴˒⁵
View attachment 3177444
Indeed, mouth width positively correlates with perceived leadership ability and actual leadership performance in humans⁶

some cagefuel I stumbled upon in a study analyzing the Facial Anthropometric Data of Korean Pilots for Oxygen Mask Design and pilots mog civilians for some reason (they just look the part)⁷ @mug



Disproving the usual copes :

JUST GET MSE BRO, first of all, only a few orthos provide it ( https://www.moonmse.com/distributors-1 ), it's expensive af (quoted 16k USD by Dr. Sheri Salartash), it can fail and the expansion could be asymmetric with 0 evidence of it leading to an increase in lip width, let alone in adults unless you have some death tier palate width or go way overboard and bugsbunnymax like this nigga

View attachment 3178079


THEN JUST GET SARPE LOL : This is the GOAT Ramieri in person here :
View attachment 3178063


LIP DEVICE :

like @Angutoid 's

My New Mouth Widening Invention Without Smile Lines

So this is how it looks like: I could make it more complicated but i wanted it to cost less so every narrow mouthcel could benefit. Wear this overnight!!! You need 2 more things (1 if you don't care about smile lines) to use with this: A rubber band (Smaller the size more the pressure is)...

looksmax.org

or the ones displayed in @RecessedPrettyboy 's thread

Mouth Widening Appliances

Mouth Widening Appliance 3d models for 3d printing Now before someone asks How do I print it if I dont have a 3d printer? Just go to a 3d printing service store and print it. simple and shoudnt be expensive at all Here are the different sizes: 7cm: https://www.tinkercad.com/things/2ZfCaY9upiy...

looksmax.org

or FacialFlex's https://www.craniorehab.com/Facial-Flex-Adult-Microstomia-Prevention-Appliance.html

Well, first of all, none of them are arguing for their efficacy , so i'll try to play devil's advocate :

Potential argument 1 : Lip tribe bro

View attachment 3178292
Well that's what ends up happening :

View attachment 3178293
View attachment 3178294

Potential argument 2 : Facial Flex

Well that one is specifically designed to prevent and manage microstomia i.e. we're talking about scarring or fibrosis here (= for it not to relapse) not to expand normal healthy tissue @Pendejo

Potential argument 3 : Anecdotal

People believe many things like iris color changes due to a raw meat diet @slavicpsycho, carbohydrate abstinence leading to optical superpowers @Never Get Up , mewing to increase lefort 3 area projection but these are "relatively" harmless except Bonesmashing stop it bro @Zeta @Clavicular

A too strong or improper lip expansion session could cause damage to the delicate tissues of the lips, tearing of the fragile mucous membranes which could lead to infections, muscle strain which would cause chronic fatigue or spasms, nerve irritation, it could have an impact on the alignment of the teeth, the health of gums, etc. So many unkown and very undesirable consequences that simple anecdotes can't logically outweigh.

What the fuck to do then ?

Commissuroplasty
I'm sure you're already vaguely familiar with this procedure, the main goal of this procedure is to maintain lip competence, it's a very quick and effective surgery though : it doesn't need complexe techniques.

You can do it in 2 ways⁸ :
The simplest being : Buccal mucosal advancement


The alternative being : Myomucosal advancement flap


OK BRO but who tf performs it bro even and how much ?
SPAIN : https://mallorcamedicalgroup.com/en/procedures/plastic-surgery/facial-surgery/comisuroplasty/
Price : 1k€ to 2k€
TEXAS : https://planoplasticsurgery.com/lip-commissuroplasty/
Price : Get a quote yourself lil bro
I know Eppley used to perform it, he wrote on it extensively on his blog but he stopped doing it, he would be charging 800k USD anyway


Makeup
I couldn't find any makeup tutorial that does this specifically, JFL at foids btw, muh looksmax gender, they always just increase lip vertical size like some retards actual

Just imagine for me that you're doing a commissuroplasty but with makeup
You're gonna need first concelear for two reasons :
1- to blur the actual natural edges of your mouth
2- to create a fake new vermillion border

An eyeshadow brush :
to blend-in the concealer

Lip liner :
You're gonna overline your lips slightly past the natural commissure and extend the line just beyoned the natural edge but don't do overdo it to avoid pufferfishmaxxing

Lipstick as cherry chapstick wouldn't be able to fill :
You're gonna fill in your newly accquired vermillion with a matching lipstick, matte lipstick would work better since it'll make it look sharper, you want lighter in the center and darker in the outer corners to give a gradient effect, that will enhance the width visually, you'll understand easily if you have any drawing/coloring background

Optional : Highlighter on the cupid's bow and just below the upper lip to draw the attention to the center en enhance that gradient effect.
Contouring to further accentuate the shadow you setup with the concealer

Follow some "HOW TO GET BIGGER LIPS" tutorials on youtube to get the gist but only apply it to lateral commissures since they all jsut increase the height of the vermillions.

OR Moustache obviously :





¹Stephan, C.N., & Henneberg, M. (2003). Predicting mouth width from inter-canine width — a 75% rule. Journal of Forensic Sciences, 48, 725–727.
²Hildebrandt, K.A., & Fitzgerald, H.E. (1979). Facial feature determinants of perceived infant attractiveness. Infant Behavior & Development, 2, 329–339.
³Livingston, R.W., & Pearce, N.A. (2009). The teddy-bear effect does having a baby face benefit black chief executive officers? Psychological Science, 20, 1229–1236.
⁴Harvey, P.H., Kavanagh, M., & Clutton-Brock, T.H. (1978). Sexual dimorphism in primate teeth. Journal of Zoology, 186, 475–485.
⁵Plavcan, J.M., & van Schaik, C.P. (1992). Intrasexual competition and canine dimorphism in anthropoid primates. American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 87, 461–477.
⁶Re, D. E., & Rule, N. O. (2016). The big man has a big mouth: Mouth width correlates with perceived leadership ability and actual leadership performance.
⁷https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Data_of_Korean_Pilots_for_Oxygen_Mask_Design
⁸Parsel, S. M., & Winters, R. D. (2020). Commissuroplasty. Operative Techniques in Otolaryngology, 31(1), 33–37.

Spoiler: Tags

@Clavicular @Alexanderr @TechnoBoss @Jason Voorhees @truthhurts @greycel @sb23 @Haseeb @truthhurts @PeakIncels @UZB_Strebl @MA_ascender @SubhumanForever @kaligula567 @enchanted_elixir @Blackgymmax @Rea @HarrierDuBois

Quick edit : the 1.6 with alar base is a shit measurement for ideal lip width cause ala size isn't a key feature in aesthetic cause then you would just get alarplasty with a shit mouth width but that will look like pure dogshit

how i fix deep bite, i can pay if u want

 

[notsocommonthumb]

18+ / Leanmaxxed Only

​

The mouth or lip width is the distance between the oral commissures.

Spoiler: Lip anatomy and terminology :

1 Philtrum
2 Philtral ridges/columns
3 Cupid’s bow
4 High points of the vermilion (bilateral)
5 White roll
6 Upper lip vermilion
7 Upper lip tubercle
8 Vermilion border (mucocutaneous junction)
9 Lower lip vermilion
10 Oral (labial) commissures
11 Nasolabial groove
12 Mentolabial groove

View attachment 3176634​

Obviously, this is to be considered only after having addressed your maxilla (projection & palate width¹), teeth normalization & lip tonicity. (it's all related)

FIRST LET'S GET THIS OUT OF THE WAY :
How to tell you need orthognathic and/or orthodontic work for your lips aesthetics

Lip Curvature :
Upper lip curvature (frontal view): the mid-philtrum height and bilateral oral commissure heights should be approximately equal in adults with the lips lightly in contact.

View attachment 3177487
For example :
A significantly shorter mid-philtrum height compared with commissure height in an adult result in upper lip line morphology referred to as an inverted arc.

View attachment 3177488View attachment 3177692
According to Dr.Naini :
The contour of the upper and lower lips at rest may resemble an inverted arc in a number of conditions, giving the patient the appearance of a frown:

1 - Maxillary or midfacial hypoplasia: The unintentionally aggressive appearance particularly common in ‘ Class III ’ patients is due to this inverted arc, secondary to maxillary hypoplasia. Management requires maxillary advancement.

2- Lowering/drooping of the oral commissures as a result of ageing: Management requires rhytidectomy (facelift).

Lip tonicity :

It refers to the muscular tone of the lips and it is easily predictable by the underlying jaw structure and, subsequently, teeth alignment.

For example :

Class 2 malocclusion will often lead to hyperactivity of the lower lip :

View attachment 3177547

A more severe class 2 will often lead to upper lip hypotonicity :

View attachment 3177552

Bimaxillary protrusion will often lead to limp or flaccid lips :

View attachment 3177653

Correction of the underlying deformity allows normal lip function and often results in the upper lip developing normal tonicity.

Upper lip height (long philtrumcels) :

View attachment 3177685

Don't forget that the skull is a 3D object and that includes lips so a projection and even CCW rotation of the maxilla would lower perceived upper lip height @Clavicular and expose more upper lip vermilion. However, it probably won't help your lip width since the crucial growth period has been missed. I'd need @RealSurgerymax opinion on this since he has actual experience with multipiece Lefort 1's.

With considerations to thick BBC upper lips which tend to be less indicative/more camouflaging of the underlying teeth and jaw structures, so get scans ig
View attachment 3177493




Now that we've ruled out dentofacial deformities which is the reason most of us are ugly , it is still possible to have bad lip width without any skeletal problem due to genetics (), aging or soft tissue asymmetry.

What's an ideal lip width?

This nigga da Vinci thinks it should align with IPD in a well proportioned face

View attachment 3177704View attachment 3177706

which is correct bro

View attachment 3177707View attachment 3177708View attachment 3177709
View attachment 3177719View attachment 3177722View attachment 3177733


What are the physiognomical advantages of an ideal lip width / Why bother ?

First of all it's a baby trait² and babyfacedness is negatively correlated with attractiveness, same logic as hollow cheeks : "Particular attention has been paid to facial features which distinguish infants from adults. " B a b y i s h " or infantile facial features include a high and protruding forehead, large eyes placed in the middle of the face, a small nose and mouth, and fat cheeks (Gardner & Wallach, 1965; Hess, 1970)."


i.e. the chérubin look is undesirable for adults, it's what makes us invisible (like actually this is the reason subhumans are invisible)
View attachment 3178365
"As Zebrowitz (1997) noted, ‘‘a baby’s face is disarming’’ (p.64). Decades of research have shown that baby-faced adults are perceived as being more warm, trustworthy, and innocent than mature-faced adults (for a review, see Zebrowitz, 1997). They are also treated with greater patience, sensitivity, and compassion. For example, studies have demonstrated that baby-faced offenders tend to receive more lenient sentences than mature-faced offenders for certain types of crimes (e.g., Berry & Zebrowitz-McArthur, 1988). Studies have also found that baby-faced individuals are more persuasive than mature-faced individuals when trustworthiness is uncertain (Brownlow, 1992), and that corporations with baby-faced spokespeople are trusted more than those with mature-faced spokespeople during a mild public-relations crisis (Gorn, Jiang, & Johar, 2008). However, there are costs to the tenderness that a baby face engenders. Like babies, baby-faced adults are perceived as being incompetent and weak. Consequently, research has suggested that babyfaceness may be a liability for people striving to attain high positions of leadership in government (Zebrowitz & Montepare, 2005) and industry (Rule & Ambady, 2008)."³
Which is fine if you're femboymaxxing I guess

Secondly, it is a sign of physical formidability which then links it to leadership, the current evolutionary hypothesis being that canine tooth size and ICW is positively correlated with a wider mouth and big dimorphic canines (thus mouth) correlate with male physical combat and dominance in primates ⁴˒⁵
View attachment 3177444
Indeed, mouth width positively correlates with perceived leadership ability and actual leadership performance in humans⁶

some cagefuel I stumbled upon in a study analyzing the Facial Anthropometric Data of Korean Pilots for Oxygen Mask Design and pilots mog civilians for some reason (they just look the part)⁷ @mug



Disproving the usual copes :

JUST GET MSE BRO, first of all, only a few orthos provide it ( https://www.moonmse.com/distributors-1 ), it's expensive af (quoted 16k USD by Dr. Sheri Salartash), it can fail and the expansion could be asymmetric with 0 evidence of it leading to an increase in lip width, let alone in adults unless you have some death tier palate width or go way overboard and bugsbunnymax like this nigga

View attachment 3178079


THEN JUST GET SARPE LOL : This is the GOAT Ramieri in person here :
View attachment 3178063


LIP DEVICE :

like @Angutoid 's

My New Mouth Widening Invention Without Smile Lines

So this is how it looks like: I could make it more complicated but i wanted it to cost less so every narrow mouthcel could benefit. Wear this overnight!!! You need 2 more things (1 if you don't care about smile lines) to use with this: A rubber band (Smaller the size more the pressure is)...

looksmax.org

or the ones displayed in @RecessedPrettyboy 's thread

Mouth Widening Appliances

Mouth Widening Appliance 3d models for 3d printing Now before someone asks How do I print it if I dont have a 3d printer? Just go to a 3d printing service store and print it. simple and shoudnt be expensive at all Here are the different sizes: 7cm: https://www.tinkercad.com/things/2ZfCaY9upiy...

looksmax.org

or FacialFlex's https://www.craniorehab.com/Facial-Flex-Adult-Microstomia-Prevention-Appliance.html

Well, first of all, none of them are arguing for their efficacy , so i'll try to play devil's advocate :

Potential argument 1 : Lip tribe bro

View attachment 3178292
Well that's what ends up happening :

View attachment 3178293
View attachment 3178294

Potential argument 2 : Facial Flex

Well that one is specifically designed to prevent and manage microstomia i.e. we're talking about scarring or fibrosis here (= for it not to relapse) not to expand normal healthy tissue @Pendejo

Potential argument 3 : Anecdotal

People believe many things like iris color changes due to a raw meat diet @slavicpsycho, carbohydrate abstinence leading to optical superpowers @Never Get Up , mewing to increase lefort 3 area projection but these are "relatively" harmless except Bonesmashing stop it bro @Zeta @Clavicular

A too strong or improper lip expansion session could cause damage to the delicate tissues of the lips, tearing of the fragile mucous membranes which could lead to infections, muscle strain which would cause chronic fatigue or spasms, nerve irritation, it could have an impact on the alignment of the teeth, the health of gums, etc. So many unkown and very undesirable consequences that simple anecdotes can't logically outweigh.

What the fuck to do then ?

Commissuroplasty
I'm sure you're already vaguely familiar with this procedure, the main goal of this procedure is to maintain lip competence, it's a very quick and effective surgery though : it doesn't need complexe techniques.

You can do it in 2 ways⁸ :
The simplest being : Buccal mucosal advancement


The alternative being : Myomucosal advancement flap


OK BRO but who tf performs it bro even and how much ?
SPAIN : https://mallorcamedicalgroup.com/en/procedures/plastic-surgery/facial-surgery/comisuroplasty/
Price : 1k€ to 2k€
TEXAS : https://planoplasticsurgery.com/lip-commissuroplasty/
Price : Get a quote yourself lil bro
I know Eppley used to perform it, he wrote on it extensively on his blog but he stopped doing it, he would be charging 800k USD anyway


Makeup
I couldn't find any makeup tutorial that does this specifically, JFL at foids btw, muh looksmax gender, they always just increase lip vertical size like some retards actual

Just imagine for me that you're doing a commissuroplasty but with makeup
You're gonna need first concelear for two reasons :
1- to blur the actual natural edges of your mouth
2- to create a fake new vermillion border

An eyeshadow brush :
to blend-in the concealer

Lip liner :
You're gonna overline your lips slightly past the natural commissure and extend the line just beyoned the natural edge but don't do overdo it to avoid pufferfishmaxxing

Lipstick as cherry chapstick wouldn't be able to fill :
You're gonna fill in your newly accquired vermillion with a matching lipstick, matte lipstick would work better since it'll make it look sharper, you want lighter in the center and darker in the outer corners to give a gradient effect, that will enhance the width visually, you'll understand easily if you have any drawing/coloring background

Optional : Highlighter on the cupid's bow and just below the upper lip to draw the attention to the center en enhance that gradient effect.
Contouring to further accentuate the shadow you setup with the concealer

Follow some "HOW TO GET BIGGER LIPS" tutorials on youtube to get the gist but only apply it to lateral commissures since they all jsut increase the height of the vermillions.

OR Moustache obviously :





¹Stephan, C.N., & Henneberg, M. (2003). Predicting mouth width from inter-canine width — a 75% rule. Journal of Forensic Sciences, 48, 725–727.
²Hildebrandt, K.A., & Fitzgerald, H.E. (1979). Facial feature determinants of perceived infant attractiveness. Infant Behavior & Development, 2, 329–339.
³Livingston, R.W., & Pearce, N.A. (2009). The teddy-bear effect does having a baby face benefit black chief executive officers? Psychological Science, 20, 1229–1236.
⁴Harvey, P.H., Kavanagh, M., & Clutton-Brock, T.H. (1978). Sexual dimorphism in primate teeth. Journal of Zoology, 186, 475–485.
⁵Plavcan, J.M., & van Schaik, C.P. (1992). Intrasexual competition and canine dimorphism in anthropoid primates. American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 87, 461–477.
⁶Re, D. E., & Rule, N. O. (2016). The big man has a big mouth: Mouth width correlates with perceived leadership ability and actual leadership performance.
⁷https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Data_of_Korean_Pilots_for_Oxygen_Mask_Design
⁸Parsel, S. M., & Winters, R. D. (2020). Commissuroplasty. Operative Techniques in Otolaryngology, 31(1), 33–37.

Spoiler: Tags

@Clavicular @Alexanderr @TechnoBoss @Jason Voorhees @truthhurts @greycel @sb23 @Haseeb @truthhurts @PeakIncels @UZB_Strebl @MA_ascender @SubhumanForever @kaligula567 @enchanted_elixir @Blackgymmax @Rea @HarrierDuBois

Quick edit : the 1.6 with alar base is a shit measurement for ideal lip width cause ala size isn't a key feature in aesthetic cause then you would just get alarplasty with a shit mouth width but that will look like pure dogshit

which gets best results, Buccal mucosal advancement or Myomucosal advancement flap?

 

[AustrianMogger]

18+ / Leanmaxxed Only

​

The mouth or lip width is the distance between the oral commissures.

Spoiler: Lip anatomy and terminology :

1 Philtrum
2 Philtral ridges/columns
3 Cupid’s bow
4 High points of the vermilion (bilateral)
5 White roll
6 Upper lip vermilion
7 Upper lip tubercle
8 Vermilion border (mucocutaneous junction)
9 Lower lip vermilion
10 Oral (labial) commissures
11 Nasolabial groove
12 Mentolabial groove

View attachment 3176634​

Obviously, this is to be considered only after having addressed your maxilla (projection & palate width¹), teeth normalization & lip tonicity. (it's all related)

FIRST LET'S GET THIS OUT OF THE WAY :
How to tell you need orthognathic and/or orthodontic work for your lips aesthetics

Lip Curvature :
Upper lip curvature (frontal view): the mid-philtrum height and bilateral oral commissure heights should be approximately equal in adults with the lips lightly in contact.

View attachment 3177487
For example :
A significantly shorter mid-philtrum height compared with commissure height in an adult result in upper lip line morphology referred to as an inverted arc.

View attachment 3177488View attachment 3177692
According to Dr.Naini :
The contour of the upper and lower lips at rest may resemble an inverted arc in a number of conditions, giving the patient the appearance of a frown:

1 - Maxillary or midfacial hypoplasia: The unintentionally aggressive appearance particularly common in ‘ Class III ’ patients is due to this inverted arc, secondary to maxillary hypoplasia. Management requires maxillary advancement.

2- Lowering/drooping of the oral commissures as a result of ageing: Management requires rhytidectomy (facelift).

Lip tonicity :

It refers to the muscular tone of the lips and it is easily predictable by the underlying jaw structure and, subsequently, teeth alignment.

For example :

Class 2 malocclusion will often lead to hyperactivity of the lower lip :

View attachment 3177547

A more severe class 2 will often lead to upper lip hypotonicity :

View attachment 3177552

Bimaxillary protrusion will often lead to limp or flaccid lips :

View attachment 3177653

Correction of the underlying deformity allows normal lip function and often results in the upper lip developing normal tonicity.

Upper lip height (long philtrumcels) :

View attachment 3177685

Don't forget that the skull is a 3D object and that includes lips so a projection and even CCW rotation of the maxilla would lower perceived upper lip height @Clavicular and expose more upper lip vermilion. However, it probably won't help your lip width since the crucial growth period has been missed. I'd need @RealSurgerymax opinion on this since he has actual experience with multipiece Lefort 1's.

With considerations to thick BBC upper lips which tend to be less indicative/more camouflaging of the underlying teeth and jaw structures, so get scans ig
View attachment 3177493




Now that we've ruled out dentofacial deformities which is the reason most of us are ugly , it is still possible to have bad lip width without any skeletal problem due to genetics (), aging or soft tissue asymmetry.

What's an ideal lip width?

This nigga da Vinci thinks it should align with IPD in a well proportioned face

View attachment 3177704View attachment 3177706

which is correct bro

View attachment 3177707View attachment 3177708View attachment 3177709
View attachment 3177719View attachment 3177722View attachment 3177733


What are the physiognomical advantages of an ideal lip width / Why bother ?

First of all it's a baby trait² and babyfacedness is negatively correlated with attractiveness, same logic as hollow cheeks : "Particular attention has been paid to facial features which distinguish infants from adults. " B a b y i s h " or infantile facial features include a high and protruding forehead, large eyes placed in the middle of the face, a small nose and mouth, and fat cheeks (Gardner & Wallach, 1965; Hess, 1970)."


i.e. the chérubin look is undesirable for adults, it's what makes us invisible (like actually this is the reason subhumans are invisible)
View attachment 3178365
"As Zebrowitz (1997) noted, ‘‘a baby’s face is disarming’’ (p.64). Decades of research have shown that baby-faced adults are perceived as being more warm, trustworthy, and innocent than mature-faced adults (for a review, see Zebrowitz, 1997). They are also treated with greater patience, sensitivity, and compassion. For example, studies have demonstrated that baby-faced offenders tend to receive more lenient sentences than mature-faced offenders for certain types of crimes (e.g., Berry & Zebrowitz-McArthur, 1988). Studies have also found that baby-faced individuals are more persuasive than mature-faced individuals when trustworthiness is uncertain (Brownlow, 1992), and that corporations with baby-faced spokespeople are trusted more than those with mature-faced spokespeople during a mild public-relations crisis (Gorn, Jiang, & Johar, 2008). However, there are costs to the tenderness that a baby face engenders. Like babies, baby-faced adults are perceived as being incompetent and weak. Consequently, research has suggested that babyfaceness may be a liability for people striving to attain high positions of leadership in government (Zebrowitz & Montepare, 2005) and industry (Rule & Ambady, 2008)."³
Which is fine if you're femboymaxxing I guess

Secondly, it is a sign of physical formidability which then links it to leadership, the current evolutionary hypothesis being that canine tooth size and ICW is positively correlated with a wider mouth and big dimorphic canines (thus mouth) correlate with male physical combat and dominance in primates ⁴˒⁵
View attachment 3177444
Indeed, mouth width positively correlates with perceived leadership ability and actual leadership performance in humans⁶

some cagefuel I stumbled upon in a study analyzing the Facial Anthropometric Data of Korean Pilots for Oxygen Mask Design and pilots mog civilians for some reason (they just look the part)⁷ @mug



Disproving the usual copes :

JUST GET MSE BRO, first of all, only a few orthos provide it ( https://www.moonmse.com/distributors-1 ), it's expensive af (quoted 16k USD by Dr. Sheri Salartash), it can fail and the expansion could be asymmetric with 0 evidence of it leading to an increase in lip width, let alone in adults unless you have some death tier palate width or go way overboard and bugsbunnymax like this nigga

View attachment 3178079


THEN JUST GET SARPE LOL : This is the GOAT Ramieri in person here :
View attachment 3178063


LIP DEVICE :

like @Angutoid 's

My New Mouth Widening Invention Without Smile Lines

So this is how it looks like: I could make it more complicated but i wanted it to cost less so every narrow mouthcel could benefit. Wear this overnight!!! You need 2 more things (1 if you don't care about smile lines) to use with this: A rubber band (Smaller the size more the pressure is)...

looksmax.org

or the ones displayed in @RecessedPrettyboy 's thread

Mouth Widening Appliances

Mouth Widening Appliance 3d models for 3d printing Now before someone asks How do I print it if I dont have a 3d printer? Just go to a 3d printing service store and print it. simple and shoudnt be expensive at all Here are the different sizes: 7cm: https://www.tinkercad.com/things/2ZfCaY9upiy...

looksmax.org

or FacialFlex's https://www.craniorehab.com/Facial-Flex-Adult-Microstomia-Prevention-Appliance.html

Well, first of all, none of them are arguing for their efficacy , so i'll try to play devil's advocate :

Potential argument 1 : Lip tribe bro

View attachment 3178292
Well that's what ends up happening :

View attachment 3178293
View attachment 3178294

Potential argument 2 : Facial Flex

Well that one is specifically designed to prevent and manage microstomia i.e. we're talking about scarring or fibrosis here (= for it not to relapse) not to expand normal healthy tissue @Pendejo

Potential argument 3 : Anecdotal

People believe many things like iris color changes due to a raw meat diet @slavicpsycho, carbohydrate abstinence leading to optical superpowers @Never Get Up , mewing to increase lefort 3 area projection but these are "relatively" harmless except Bonesmashing stop it bro @Zeta @Clavicular

A too strong or improper lip expansion session could cause damage to the delicate tissues of the lips, tearing of the fragile mucous membranes which could lead to infections, muscle strain which would cause chronic fatigue or spasms, nerve irritation, it could have an impact on the alignment of the teeth, the health of gums, etc. So many unkown and very undesirable consequences that simple anecdotes can't logically outweigh.

What the fuck to do then ?

Commissuroplasty
I'm sure you're already vaguely familiar with this procedure, the main goal of this procedure is to maintain lip competence, it's a very quick and effective surgery though : it doesn't need complexe techniques.

You can do it in 2 ways⁸ :
The simplest being : Buccal mucosal advancement


The alternative being : Myomucosal advancement flap


OK BRO but who tf performs it bro even and how much ?
SPAIN : https://mallorcamedicalgroup.com/en/procedures/plastic-surgery/facial-surgery/comisuroplasty/
Price : 1k€ to 2k€
TEXAS : https://planoplasticsurgery.com/lip-commissuroplasty/
Price : Get a quote yourself lil bro
I know Eppley used to perform it, he wrote on it extensively on his blog but he stopped doing it, he would be charging 800k USD anyway


Makeup
I couldn't find any makeup tutorial that does this specifically, JFL at foids btw, muh looksmax gender, they always just increase lip vertical size like some retards actual

Just imagine for me that you're doing a commissuroplasty but with makeup
You're gonna need first concelear for two reasons :
1- to blur the actual natural edges of your mouth
2- to create a fake new vermillion border

An eyeshadow brush :
to blend-in the concealer

Lip liner :
You're gonna overline your lips slightly past the natural commissure and extend the line just beyoned the natural edge but don't do overdo it to avoid pufferfishmaxxing

Lipstick as cherry chapstick wouldn't be able to fill :
You're gonna fill in your newly accquired vermillion with a matching lipstick, matte lipstick would work better since it'll make it look sharper, you want lighter in the center and darker in the outer corners to give a gradient effect, that will enhance the width visually, you'll understand easily if you have any drawing/coloring background

Optional : Highlighter on the cupid's bow and just below the upper lip to draw the attention to the center en enhance that gradient effect.
Contouring to further accentuate the shadow you setup with the concealer

Follow some "HOW TO GET BIGGER LIPS" tutorials on youtube to get the gist but only apply it to lateral commissures since they all jsut increase the height of the vermillions.

OR Moustache obviously :





¹Stephan, C.N., & Henneberg, M. (2003). Predicting mouth width from inter-canine width — a 75% rule. Journal of Forensic Sciences, 48, 725–727.
²Hildebrandt, K.A., & Fitzgerald, H.E. (1979). Facial feature determinants of perceived infant attractiveness. Infant Behavior & Development, 2, 329–339.
³Livingston, R.W., & Pearce, N.A. (2009). The teddy-bear effect does having a baby face benefit black chief executive officers? Psychological Science, 20, 1229–1236.
⁴Harvey, P.H., Kavanagh, M., & Clutton-Brock, T.H. (1978). Sexual dimorphism in primate teeth. Journal of Zoology, 186, 475–485.
⁵Plavcan, J.M., & van Schaik, C.P. (1992). Intrasexual competition and canine dimorphism in anthropoid primates. American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 87, 461–477.
⁶Re, D. E., & Rule, N. O. (2016). The big man has a big mouth: Mouth width correlates with perceived leadership ability and actual leadership performance.
⁷https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Data_of_Korean_Pilots_for_Oxygen_Mask_Design
⁸Parsel, S. M., & Winters, R. D. (2020). Commissuroplasty. Operative Techniques in Otolaryngology, 31(1), 33–37.

Spoiler: Tags

@Clavicular @Alexanderr @TechnoBoss @Jason Voorhees @truthhurts @greycel @sb23 @Haseeb @truthhurts @PeakIncels @UZB_Strebl @MA_ascender @SubhumanForever @kaligula567 @enchanted_elixir @Blackgymmax @Rea @HarrierDuBois

Quick edit : the 1.6 with alar base is a shit measurement for ideal lip width cause ala size isn't a key feature in aesthetic cause then you would just get alarplasty with a shit mouth width but that will look like pure dogshit

mirin

 

[NZb6Air]

which gets best results, Buccal mucosal advancement or Myomucosal advancement flap?

theoretically same shit but no data

 

[PsychoH]

18+ / Leanmaxxed Only

​

The mouth or lip width is the distance between the oral commissures.

Spoiler: Lip anatomy and terminology :

1 Philtrum
2 Philtral ridges/columns
3 Cupid’s bow
4 High points of the vermilion (bilateral)
5 White roll
6 Upper lip vermilion
7 Upper lip tubercle
8 Vermilion border (mucocutaneous junction)
9 Lower lip vermilion
10 Oral (labial) commissures
11 Nasolabial groove
12 Mentolabial groove

View attachment 3176634​

Obviously, this is to be considered only after having addressed your maxilla (projection & palate width¹), teeth normalization & lip tonicity. (it's all related)

FIRST LET'S GET THIS OUT OF THE WAY :
How to tell you need orthognathic and/or orthodontic work for your lips aesthetics

Lip Curvature :
Upper lip curvature (frontal view): the mid-philtrum height and bilateral oral commissure heights should be approximately equal in adults with the lips lightly in contact.

View attachment 3177487
For example :
A significantly shorter mid-philtrum height compared with commissure height in an adult result in upper lip line morphology referred to as an inverted arc.

View attachment 3177488View attachment 3177692
According to Dr.Naini :
The contour of the upper and lower lips at rest may resemble an inverted arc in a number of conditions, giving the patient the appearance of a frown:

1 - Maxillary or midfacial hypoplasia: The unintentionally aggressive appearance particularly common in ‘ Class III ’ patients is due to this inverted arc, secondary to maxillary hypoplasia. Management requires maxillary advancement.

2- Lowering/drooping of the oral commissures as a result of ageing: Management requires rhytidectomy (facelift).

Lip tonicity :

It refers to the muscular tone of the lips and it is easily predictable by the underlying jaw structure and, subsequently, teeth alignment.

For example :

Class 2 malocclusion will often lead to hyperactivity of the lower lip :

View attachment 3177547

A more severe class 2 will often lead to upper lip hypotonicity :

View attachment 3177552

Bimaxillary protrusion will often lead to limp or flaccid lips :

View attachment 3177653

Correction of the underlying deformity allows normal lip function and often results in the upper lip developing normal tonicity.

Upper lip height (long philtrumcels) :

View attachment 3177685

Don't forget that the skull is a 3D object and that includes lips so a projection and even CCW rotation of the maxilla would lower perceived upper lip height @Clavicular and expose more upper lip vermilion. However, it probably won't help your lip width since the crucial growth period has been missed. I'd need @RealSurgerymax opinion on this since he has actual experience with multipiece Lefort 1's.

With considerations to thick BBC upper lips which tend to be less indicative/more camouflaging of the underlying teeth and jaw structures, so get scans ig
View attachment 3177493




Now that we've ruled out dentofacial deformities which is the reason most of us are ugly , it is still possible to have bad lip width without any skeletal problem due to genetics (), aging or soft tissue asymmetry.

What's an ideal lip width?

This nigga da Vinci thinks it should align with IPD in a well proportioned face

View attachment 3177704View attachment 3177706

which is correct bro

View attachment 3177707View attachment 3177708View attachment 3177709
View attachment 3177719View attachment 3177722View attachment 3177733


What are the physiognomical advantages of an ideal lip width / Why bother ?

First of all it's a baby trait² and babyfacedness is negatively correlated with attractiveness, same logic as hollow cheeks : "Particular attention has been paid to facial features which distinguish infants from adults. " B a b y i s h " or infantile facial features include a high and protruding forehead, large eyes placed in the middle of the face, a small nose and mouth, and fat cheeks (Gardner & Wallach, 1965; Hess, 1970)."


i.e. the chérubin look is undesirable for adults, it's what makes us invisible (like actually this is the reason subhumans are invisible)
View attachment 3178365
"As Zebrowitz (1997) noted, ‘‘a baby’s face is disarming’’ (p.64). Decades of research have shown that baby-faced adults are perceived as being more warm, trustworthy, and innocent than mature-faced adults (for a review, see Zebrowitz, 1997). They are also treated with greater patience, sensitivity, and compassion. For example, studies have demonstrated that baby-faced offenders tend to receive more lenient sentences than mature-faced offenders for certain types of crimes (e.g., Berry & Zebrowitz-McArthur, 1988). Studies have also found that baby-faced individuals are more persuasive than mature-faced individuals when trustworthiness is uncertain (Brownlow, 1992), and that corporations with baby-faced spokespeople are trusted more than those with mature-faced spokespeople during a mild public-relations crisis (Gorn, Jiang, & Johar, 2008). However, there are costs to the tenderness that a baby face engenders. Like babies, baby-faced adults are perceived as being incompetent and weak. Consequently, research has suggested that babyfaceness may be a liability for people striving to attain high positions of leadership in government (Zebrowitz & Montepare, 2005) and industry (Rule & Ambady, 2008)."³
Which is fine if you're femboymaxxing I guess

Secondly, it is a sign of physical formidability which then links it to leadership, the current evolutionary hypothesis being that canine tooth size and ICW is positively correlated with a wider mouth and big dimorphic canines (thus mouth) correlate with male physical combat and dominance in primates ⁴˒⁵
View attachment 3177444
Indeed, mouth width positively correlates with perceived leadership ability and actual leadership performance in humans⁶

some cagefuel I stumbled upon in a study analyzing the Facial Anthropometric Data of Korean Pilots for Oxygen Mask Design and pilots mog civilians for some reason (they just look the part)⁷ @mug



Disproving the usual copes :

JUST GET MSE BRO, first of all, only a few orthos provide it ( https://www.moonmse.com/distributors-1 ), it's expensive af (quoted 16k USD by Dr. Sheri Salartash), it can fail and the expansion could be asymmetric with 0 evidence of it leading to an increase in lip width, let alone in adults unless you have some death tier palate width or go way overboard and bugsbunnymax like this nigga

View attachment 3178079


THEN JUST GET SARPE LOL : This is the GOAT Ramieri in person here :
View attachment 3178063


LIP DEVICE :

like @Angutoid 's

My New Mouth Widening Invention Without Smile Lines

So this is how it looks like: I could make it more complicated but i wanted it to cost less so every narrow mouthcel could benefit. Wear this overnight!!! You need 2 more things (1 if you don't care about smile lines) to use with this: A rubber band (Smaller the size more the pressure is)...

looksmax.org

or the ones displayed in @RecessedPrettyboy 's thread

Mouth Widening Appliances

Mouth Widening Appliance 3d models for 3d printing Now before someone asks How do I print it if I dont have a 3d printer? Just go to a 3d printing service store and print it. simple and shoudnt be expensive at all Here are the different sizes: 7cm: https://www.tinkercad.com/things/2ZfCaY9upiy...

looksmax.org

or FacialFlex's https://www.craniorehab.com/Facial-Flex-Adult-Microstomia-Prevention-Appliance.html

Well, first of all, none of them are arguing for their efficacy , so i'll try to play devil's advocate :

Potential argument 1 : Lip tribe bro

View attachment 3178292
Well that's what ends up happening :

View attachment 3178293
View attachment 3178294

Potential argument 2 : Facial Flex

Well that one is specifically designed to prevent and manage microstomia i.e. we're talking about scarring or fibrosis here (= for it not to relapse) not to expand normal healthy tissue @Pendejo

Potential argument 3 : Anecdotal

People believe many things like iris color changes due to a raw meat diet @slavicpsycho, carbohydrate abstinence leading to optical superpowers @Never Get Up , mewing to increase lefort 3 area projection but these are "relatively" harmless except Bonesmashing stop it bro @Zeta @Clavicular

A too strong or improper lip expansion session could cause damage to the delicate tissues of the lips, tearing of the fragile mucous membranes which could lead to infections, muscle strain which would cause chronic fatigue or spasms, nerve irritation, it could have an impact on the alignment of the teeth, the health of gums, etc. So many unkown and very undesirable consequences that simple anecdotes can't logically outweigh.

What the fuck to do then ?

Commissuroplasty
I'm sure you're already vaguely familiar with this procedure, the main goal of this procedure is to maintain lip competence, it's a very quick and effective surgery though : it doesn't need complexe techniques.

You can do it in 2 ways⁸ :
The simplest being : Buccal mucosal advancement


The alternative being : Myomucosal advancement flap


OK BRO but who tf performs it bro even and how much ?
SPAIN : https://mallorcamedicalgroup.com/en/procedures/plastic-surgery/facial-surgery/comisuroplasty/
Price : 1k€ to 2k€
TEXAS : https://planoplasticsurgery.com/lip-commissuroplasty/
Price : Get a quote yourself lil bro
I know Eppley used to perform it, he wrote on it extensively on his blog but he stopped doing it, he would be charging 800k USD anyway


Makeup
I couldn't find any makeup tutorial that does this specifically, JFL at foids btw, muh looksmax gender, they always just increase lip vertical size like some retards actual

Just imagine for me that you're doing a commissuroplasty but with makeup
You're gonna need first concelear for two reasons :
1- to blur the actual natural edges of your mouth
2- to create a fake new vermillion border

An eyeshadow brush :
to blend-in the concealer

Lip liner :
You're gonna overline your lips slightly past the natural commissure and extend the line just beyoned the natural edge but don't do overdo it to avoid pufferfishmaxxing

Lipstick as cherry chapstick wouldn't be able to fill :
You're gonna fill in your newly accquired vermillion with a matching lipstick, matte lipstick would work better since it'll make it look sharper, you want lighter in the center and darker in the outer corners to give a gradient effect, that will enhance the width visually, you'll understand easily if you have any drawing/coloring background

Optional : Highlighter on the cupid's bow and just below the upper lip to draw the attention to the center en enhance that gradient effect.
Contouring to further accentuate the shadow you setup with the concealer

Follow some "HOW TO GET BIGGER LIPS" tutorials on youtube to get the gist but only apply it to lateral commissures since they all jsut increase the height of the vermillions.

OR Moustache obviously :





¹Stephan, C.N., & Henneberg, M. (2003). Predicting mouth width from inter-canine width — a 75% rule. Journal of Forensic Sciences, 48, 725–727.
²Hildebrandt, K.A., & Fitzgerald, H.E. (1979). Facial feature determinants of perceived infant attractiveness. Infant Behavior & Development, 2, 329–339.
³Livingston, R.W., & Pearce, N.A. (2009). The teddy-bear effect does having a baby face benefit black chief executive officers? Psychological Science, 20, 1229–1236.
⁴Harvey, P.H., Kavanagh, M., & Clutton-Brock, T.H. (1978). Sexual dimorphism in primate teeth. Journal of Zoology, 186, 475–485.
⁵Plavcan, J.M., & van Schaik, C.P. (1992). Intrasexual competition and canine dimorphism in anthropoid primates. American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 87, 461–477.
⁶Re, D. E., & Rule, N. O. (2016). The big man has a big mouth: Mouth width correlates with perceived leadership ability and actual leadership performance.
⁷https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Data_of_Korean_Pilots_for_Oxygen_Mask_Design
⁸Parsel, S. M., & Winters, R. D. (2020). Commissuroplasty. Operative Techniques in Otolaryngology, 31(1), 33–37.

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Quick edit : the 1.6 with alar base is a shit measurement for ideal lip width cause ala size isn't a key feature in aesthetic cause then you would just get alarplasty with a shit mouth width but that will look like pure dogshit

bumping my smartest uncle.

 

[NZb6Air]

mirin looksmin anyone?

 

[retardpill]

mirin looksmin anyone?

why would she ever do that

 

[Magnum Opus]

mirin looksmin anyone?

Nice dox

 

[Jonas2k7]

mirin looksmin anyone?

I thought the before was the after

Why would anyone do that shit

This isn't even bluepilled looksmaxxing why did she think that this would look good

 

[AustrianMogger]

I tried to address this in the first part, yes bimaxillary movements could alter the position of your lips by either instantly exposing more vermilion (red part) via rotation or in some cases simply advancement or by giving them the dentoalveolar support they used to lack which would strengthen back overtime to blueprint levels (which would make them "bigger")

I don't think an intercanine width increase leads to a lip width increase and that's what Ramieri thinks also (he has an insane amount of experience with increasing ICW, he does SARPE, custom MARPE, Lefort 1 Segmentations)

Stretching can work in the short term but it will always relapse, it's annoying and i think it's too risky so don't do it

If after some time post-bimax (lip strengthening period) you still want to increase lip height then try lipstick and go over the vermilion border, it's common, if u like it and want to actually increase then try a lip flip (botox / temporary), if you still legit like it then try a conservative lip lift (chance u're gonna look overdone so be careful) also if u get a lip lift you can't get a commissuroplasty later (Epley's opinion) however you can make it so the lip lift gives 1 to 3 mm of lip width with the right techniques

The lip height problem, tho, isn't just about pure vermilion exposure it's also about perceived philtrum length which a maxillary advancement could reduce
View attachment 3225772

That's why u have to wait

Hey, just saw your post. Can i get commissuroplasty and after it get a lip lift?

 

[NZb6Air]

Hey, just saw your post. Can i get commissuroplasty and after it get a lip lift?

ye but like way later (after healing) the only thing u can't do afaik is corner upturn and widening but with the right technique the corner upturn can widen by 1 mm or some shit according to Eppley

 

[AustrianMogger]

ye but like way later (after healing) the only thing u can't do afaik is corner upturn and widening but with the right technique the corner upturn can widen by 1 mm or some shit according to Eppley

your generally well informed on surgery, you think can i do a lip lift/widening and then do a genio later or not?