MSE is a looksmin. Thumbpulling doesn't work.

[joaotorri]

Based, mse will only give you bigger nose and a tooth gap

 

[zaebalsya]

BUT BUT but bu tt what about LOOX

bonesmash+mk677 but please.. gatekeep it..

 

[thejcpenny]

everything on here is pure copium. only one natural way to ascend

 

[AustrianMogger]

Yes, this cut is extra weird
I saw another cut while ramus lenghtening but of course it's better to use implants.

implants is cope tb

 

[Sadist]

MSE won't just grow the bones some users project it would

it pushes zygos out laterally via bilateral maxillary expansion

Letting your nose get wider noticably and becoming asymmetrical AF

alar stretch isnt that crazy & there are different techniques/appliances to prevent or minimize asymmetry/complications

The mandible doesn't grow along your maxilla BTW

theres mandible expanders too you know. bsso doesnt magically widen ur mandible either fyi, for mse is exclusively a bilateral movement, whilst bsso is focused on anterior movements

Apart from that MSE literally costs multiple grands and is only being done by a Korean doctor called Dr. Moon.

even if you are referring to ONLY mse - there are other techniques as you may know. completely false either way.

some palate expanding results return to baseline

only happens if there is no proper retention for the full osteogenesis period

You are better off going straight for osteotomies and implants

still true, but not everyone can afford that, as this forum is full of 14 year old ibutamoren goblins
lateral maxillary expansion is still a good pick if you need a slight facial width increase though, but only if that will not compromise, say, eye-related ratios, etc

you arent helping your point with this table either

mirin edgy doomer repfarm tho

 

[lazza]

MSE won't just grow the bones some users project it would, the only logical use case is fixing palate deformities.

If you don't have that problem, stay away from MSE and other palate expanders.

There are multiple downsides to MSE.

View attachment 3892707View attachment 3892708

Letting your nose get wider noticably and becoming asymmetrical AF doesn't sound like a "looksmax" to me.

The mandible doesn't grow along your maxilla BTW. So JFL at needing bimax afterwards either way.

Both the mandible and maxilla grow during puberty, that doesn't mean their growth is correlated, especially not after puberty.

Comparison of maxillary and mandibular growth - PubMed

In this longitudinal study, serial lateral cephalometric radiographs were used to compare growth patterns of the maxilla and mandible, with hand-wrist radiographs used to assess skeletal maturity. The sample comprised 28 untreated subjects (15 female, 13 male) who were followed from ages 6 to 20...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Apart from that MSE literally costs multiple grands and is only being done by a Korean doctor called Dr. Moon. Other palate expanders have the same downsides.

View attachment 3892734

Even funnier is that some palate expanding results return to baseline, just JFL at thinking thumbpulling would change a molecule.

"B-But Patel said-" Great idea, just listen to him because he claims x ascended him and his clients.

View attachment 3892720

You are better off going straight for osteotomies and implants, there is no reason to cope with things that don't work.

Bimax B/A.

View attachment 3892761

Last blackpill of the thread: Your skull is done growing for the most part after the age of 5.

View attachment 3892744

https://www.binasss.sa.cr/nov23/56.pdf

Spoiler: Tags

@chadbeingmade @imontheloose @Eltrē @DORIAN @Zagro

If you do bimax alone you wa.t entirely fix your maxilla projection

you will only advance it forward but what you are trying to get is a three dimensional growth, so not only forward but on the sides as well, that why expander is needed.

Palate expansion won't fix every recessed bone in your face or increase bone density.

It serves another purpose, but calling it looksminimizing it's a stretch.

 

[Jonasㅤㅤ]

it pushes zygos out laterally via bilateral maxillary expansion

Most of the expansion happens closer to the center of expansion. It does fuck all to your zygos.

alar stretch isnt that crazy

Just straight up wrong.

theres mandible expanders too

Let's just spend even more money, great idea.

even if you are referring to ONLY mse

All other palate expanders are equally dogshit. Everyone is better off just getting osteotomies.

only happens if there is no proper retention for the full osteogenesis period

You won't be able to explain why even some osteotomies return closer to baseline.

still true, but not everyone can afford that

They can't afford palate and mandible expanders either. Just use something that doesn't work at all because it is 5% cheaper theory.

arent helping your point with this table

The skull finished developing for the most part at the age of 5 already, JFL if you think you can change your whole skull with thumbpulling or palate expanders.

Also go on and send your thumbpulling B/As where you turned your head three-dimensionally to fraud results.

 

[slaters]

I got this when I wa like 8 probably saved me since I was 8 can’t imagine 5mm palate expansion at 16 would do anything besides mess up hollows

 

[keife]

MSE won't just grow the bones some users project it would, the only logical use case is fixing palate deformities.

If you don't have that problem, stay away from MSE and other palate expanders.

There are multiple downsides to MSE.

View attachment 3892707View attachment 3892708

Letting your nose get wider noticably and becoming asymmetrical AF doesn't sound like a "looksmax" to me.

The mandible doesn't grow along your maxilla BTW. So JFL at needing bimax afterwards either way.

Both the mandible and maxilla grow during puberty, that doesn't mean their growth is correlated, especially not after puberty.

Comparison of maxillary and mandibular growth - PubMed

In this longitudinal study, serial lateral cephalometric radiographs were used to compare growth patterns of the maxilla and mandible, with hand-wrist radiographs used to assess skeletal maturity. The sample comprised 28 untreated subjects (15 female, 13 male) who were followed from ages 6 to 20...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Apart from that MSE literally costs multiple grands and is only being done by a Korean doctor called Dr. Moon. Other palate expanders have the same downsides.

View attachment 3892734

Even funnier is that some palate expanding results return to baseline, just JFL at thinking thumbpulling would change a molecule.

"B-But Patel said-" Great idea, just listen to him because he claims x ascended him and his clients.

View attachment 3892720

You are better off going straight for osteotomies and implants, there is no reason to cope with things that don't work.

Bimax B/A.

View attachment 3892761

Last blackpill of the thread: Your skull is done growing for the most part after the age of 5.

View attachment 3892744

https://www.binasss.sa.cr/nov23/56.pdf

Spoiler: Tags

@chadbeingmade @imontheloose @Eltrē @DORIAN @Zagro

So what do I get then? I’ve already been offered Marpe for free of charge due to a narrow palate. Ive read studies showing 1.5-2.9mm zygomatic expansion each side. Also giantimplants told me 25% of his clients experience noticeable changes.

 

[Azie555]

MSE won't just grow the bones some users project it would, the only logical use case is fixing palate deformities.

If you don't have that problem, stay away from MSE and other palate expanders.

There are multiple downsides to MSE.

View attachment 3892707View attachment 3892708

Letting your nose get wider noticably and becoming asymmetrical AF doesn't sound like a "looksmax" to me.

The mandible doesn't grow along your maxilla BTW. So JFL at needing bimax afterwards either way.

Both the mandible and maxilla grow during puberty, that doesn't mean their growth is correlated, especially not after puberty.

Comparison of maxillary and mandibular growth - PubMed

In this longitudinal study, serial lateral cephalometric radiographs were used to compare growth patterns of the maxilla and mandible, with hand-wrist radiographs used to assess skeletal maturity. The sample comprised 28 untreated subjects (15 female, 13 male) who were followed from ages 6 to 20...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Apart from that MSE literally costs multiple grands and is only being done by a Korean doctor called Dr. Moon. Other palate expanders have the same downsides.

View attachment 3892734

Even funnier is that some palate expanding results return to baseline, just JFL at thinking thumbpulling would change a molecule.

"B-But Patel said-" Great idea, just listen to him because he claims x ascended him and his clients.

View attachment 3892720

You are better off going straight for osteotomies and implants, there is no reason to cope with things that don't work.

Bimax B/A.

View attachment 3892761

Last blackpill of the thread: Your skull is done growing for the most part after the age of 5.

View attachment 3892744

https://www.binasss.sa.cr/nov23/56.pdf

Spoiler: Tags

@chadbeingmade @imontheloose @Eltrē @DORIAN @Zagro

so i can grow my maxilla and mandible still if im 16

 

[LEFORT17]

MSE won't just grow the bones some users project it would, the only logical use case is fixing palate deformities.

If you don't have that problem, stay away from MSE and other palate expanders.

There are multiple downsides to MSE.

View attachment 3892707View attachment 3892708

Letting your nose get wider noticably and becoming asymmetrical AF doesn't sound like a "looksmax" to me.

The mandible doesn't grow along your maxilla BTW. So JFL at needing bimax afterwards either way.

Both the mandible and maxilla grow during puberty, that doesn't mean their growth is correlated, especially not after puberty.

Comparison of maxillary and mandibular growth - PubMed

In this longitudinal study, serial lateral cephalometric radiographs were used to compare growth patterns of the maxilla and mandible, with hand-wrist radiographs used to assess skeletal maturity. The sample comprised 28 untreated subjects (15 female, 13 male) who were followed from ages 6 to 20...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Apart from that MSE literally costs multiple grands and is only being done by a Korean doctor called Dr. Moon. Other palate expanders have the same downsides.

View attachment 3892734

Even funnier is that some palate expanding results return to baseline, just JFL at thinking thumbpulling would change a molecule.

"B-But Patel said-" Great idea, just listen to him because he claims x ascended him and his clients.

View attachment 3892720

You are better off going straight for osteotomies and implants, there is no reason to cope with things that don't work.

Bimax B/A.

View attachment 3892761

Last blackpill of the thread: Your skull is done growing for the most part after the age of 5.

View attachment 3892744

https://www.binasss.sa.cr/nov23/56.pdf

Spoiler: Tags

@chadbeingmade @imontheloose @Eltrē @DORIAN @Zagro

sarpe, segmental lefort clears 100%

 

[Sadist]

Most of the expansion happens closer to the center of expansion. It does fuck all to your zygos.

that implies that it stretches a gap in the middle. it doesnt. it pulls the maxilla apart, therefore widening your zygos. it is a well-documented fact.

Just straight up wrong.

it depends on the case

Let's just spend even more money, great idea.

extra few hundred bucks, lets goo

All other palate expanders are equally dogshit.

Just straight up wrong.

You won't be able to explain why even some osteotomies return closer to baseline.

for the exact same reason. fyi its called relapse & theres ways to mitigate it and unlikely exceptions/complications, ofc

They can't afford palate and mandible expanders either. Just use something that doesn't work at all because it is 5% cheaper theory.

quad digit price tags are an ai-generated myth but ok

The skull finished developing for the most part at the age of 5 already,

cant read UR OWN material? in the table u included, kindly check the maxillary development age. zygos sit on top of it laterally, they dont “grow” during mse; they MOVE with the maxilla btw, before u start about THEIR development end age.

Also go on and send your thumbpulling B/As where you turned your head three-dimensionally to fraud results.

if you spend more than 2 seconds thinking - you will realize that turning your head anywhere off perfect side makes maxillary projection look WORSE. there is no way to fraud it. looking up or down is irrelevant, as cephalometric landmarks are used to get the maxillary projection angle - and they are at constant positions. a good example (if you dont get it still) is the same way you cannot fraud past the FHP. as for tilting the head - i would need to tilt it a LOT to get the angle to change THAT much, and as you can see there is no head tilt in the pic at all. plus, the triangle would then be squished - and its not. easy geometry my nigga

 

[MogEater]

Puff, there it is. Someone with literally no experience talking bullshit again.

I’m currently on SARPE with a custom Hyrax, 2026 First Months im gonna get trimax with custom plate and custom guide., and I’m planning to create a BOTB thread about palate expanders, documenting my journey and surgery video so people can see what it’s actually like rather than random theories from people who haven’t done it.

 

[org3cel.RR]

it pushes zygos out laterally via bilateral maxillary expansion


alar stretch isnt that crazy & there are different techniques/appliances to prevent or minimize asymmetry/complications


theres mandible expanders too you know. bsso doesnt magically widen ur mandible either fyi, for mse is exclusively a bilateral movement, whilst bsso is focused on anterior movements



even if you are referring to ONLY mse - there are other techniques as you may know. completely false either way.


only happens if there is no proper retention for the full osteogenesis period



still true, but not everyone can afford that, as this forum is full of 14 year old ibutamoren goblins
lateral maxillary expansion is still a good pick if you need a slight facial width increase though, but only if that will not compromise, say, eye-related ratios, etc


you arent helping your point with this table either

mirin edgy doomer repfarm tho

Would u say MSE could give u wide set eyes then?
My palate is narrow so I was thinking of getting it even tho my ortho said I "didnt need it"

 

[MogEater]

MSE won't just grow the bones some users project it would, the only logical use case is fixing palate deformities.

If you don't have that problem, stay away from MSE and other palate expanders.

There are multiple downsides to MSE.

View attachment 3892707View attachment 3892708

Letting your nose get wider noticably and becoming asymmetrical AF doesn't sound like a "looksmax" to me.

The mandible doesn't grow along your maxilla BTW. So JFL at needing bimax afterwards either way.

Both the mandible and maxilla grow during puberty, that doesn't mean their growth is correlated, especially not after puberty.

Comparison of maxillary and mandibular growth - PubMed

In this longitudinal study, serial lateral cephalometric radiographs were used to compare growth patterns of the maxilla and mandible, with hand-wrist radiographs used to assess skeletal maturity. The sample comprised 28 untreated subjects (15 female, 13 male) who were followed from ages 6 to 20...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Apart from that MSE literally costs multiple grands and is only being done by a Korean doctor called Dr. Moon. Other palate expanders have the same downsides.

View attachment 3892734

Even funnier is that some palate expanding results return to baseline, just JFL at thinking thumbpulling would change a molecule.

"B-But Patel said-" Great idea, just listen to him because he claims x ascended him and his clients.

View attachment 3892720

You are better off going straight for osteotomies and implants, there is no reason to cope with things that don't work.

Bimax B/A.

View attachment 3892761

Last blackpill of the thread: Your skull is done growing for the most part after the age of 5.

View attachment 3892744

https://www.binasss.sa.cr/nov23/56.pdf

Spoiler: Tags

@chadbeingmade @imontheloose @Eltrē @DORIAN @Zagro

MARPE doesn’t work. In most cases, it just pushes the molars outward in adults.

MSE is a great alternative, but a small maxilla cut with custom Hyrax expanders aka sarpe is the best option for symmetrical and proper expansion. ( im using this rn )

8mm of expansion in most cases is not that much, even with SARPE. Ideally, 12–16mm is the target range.

MSE is basically a custom Hyrax with screws on ur top of the palate. It usually has 4 screws, but my ortho, when he does MSE, uses a 6-screw version.

Yes, MSE was invented by Dr. Moon in Korea, and it’s true that Moon is a great orthodontic specialist. Korea has a lot of influence in orthodontics history. But MSE is a very simple expander that any orthodontics product dealer can easily produce.

I don’t know about America, but for my doctor (who is redpilled as fuck), the surgery and custom Hyrax cost me $600. For 2–3 years of orthodontic treatment, including a Damon-style bracket system (I use the American Empower Hybrid now, which is better), functional mandibular appliances, and all the other orthodontic stuff, I’m paying around $2,000. That’s only about $1,000 more than the average doctor in my city (Turkey, Ankara). ( best doctor and clinic btw )

When it comes to the mandible, yes, there’s no way to “expand” the mandible, but I am currently expanding my mandible every day. So how does that work?

When you expand your maxilla but don’t address your mandible, you end up with a telescopic bite. Let’s say the average maxilla expansion between molars is X. If you go beyond X, like I did, you will need mandibular adjustments too. Mandibular expanders like Hyrax for the mandible are terrible in every way. The best alternative is using rubber bands, but these only work for teeth and the dental arch.

So yes, you technically can’t expand your mandible bones, and even bimax surgery doesn’t expand the mandible in most cases; it just adjusts it forward. The only real ways to “expand” your mandible are chin wing osteotomy, implants, or fillers (fat transfer might also help).

Thumb-pulling, zygoma-pushing, etc., are hilarious. Even MARPE doesn’t work effectively for adults or people over 16 years old, so how the fuck is “pushing” your face supposed to work? Even MARPE expanders apply like 20-60kg (I don’t remember the exact number) of force every second to your dental arch, and it still often doesn’t work.

The best path is always to go with SARPE with a custom Hyrax first but mse work too, then bimax for asymmetry and perfect bite correction, and then consider implants.

Expanders and orthodontics have a huge impact on aesthetics: lips, zygos, breathing, achieving a full 10-tooth smile, etc.

This subforum needs a proper orthodontics BOTB, and I’m going to create one soon.

 

[MogEater]

Most of the expansion happens closer to the center of expansion. It does fuck all to your zygos.

Let's just spend even more money, great idea.

All other palate expanders are equally dogshit. Everyone is better off just getting osteotomies.

1. That’s something even my orthodontist and I don’t fully know, since it varies depending on each person’s skull structure. But I think MSE has more impact on the zygos, while SARPE doesn’t have that effect like mse.
2. Like I said, mandibular expanders are not worth it. However, there’s an easy way to expand your mandibular dental arch using rubber bands. Even bimax surgery with mandibular osteotomy doesn’t give you good mandibular width. The only real ways are chin wing osteotomies or implants. (By the way, bone size doesn’t matter as much; bone shape is much more important.)
3. FME is an alternative to MSE. Don’t make it too complicated. Actually, there are three expander styles with different appliances, but they are basically the same.
   – First, we have expanders like MARPE, invented around the 1940s, but they are not important for us.
   – Second, expanders with screws, invented in Korea in the early 2000s, like MSE or FME. These are basically expanders with screws. They aren’t the perfect option for everyone; FME might work better for some, MSE might work better for others, but in the end, they are the same category: expanders with screws.
   – Third, SARPE, which was developed in Italy in the early 2010s, and the best version is the “small cut” SARPE, which is what I am currently using. And that’s it. My orthodontist give me lesson every check, thats why im know lot much.

 

[MogEater]

Thumbpulling will go back to baseline because there is no retainer / braces afterwards. Also thumbpulling only does actually grow more bone when you gain a space inbetween your front teeth, otherwise the "8mm gain" is just molars being tilted.

Yes, this forum doesn’t understand orthodontics. Let’s say you expand your arch (which is impossible, but let’s assume thumb-pulling works). What about post-expander treatment? What about relapse? What about the gaps between your teeth?

People don’t understand orthodontics on this forum, and some users say things like,

“I hate braces and orthodontists, they’re a cope and a scam, but I want to get bimax ”

Retards.

For perfect results, in more than 99% of bimax cases, you first need a minimum of 1 year of braces treatment, then you get bimax, and then you still need braces for another 6–12 months. Bimax is not like plastic surgery. We planning to get it in the first months of 2026.

 

[MogEater]

that implies that it stretches a gap in the middle. it doesnt. it pulls the maxilla apart, therefore widening your zygos. it is a well-documented fact.


it depends on the case


extra few hundred bucks, lets goo





for the exact same reason. fyi its called relapse & theres ways to mitigate it and unlikely exceptions/complications, ofc


quad digit price tags are an ai-generated myth but ok


cant read UR OWN material? in the table u included, kindly check the maxillary development age. zygos sit on top of it laterally, they dont “grow” during mse; they MOVE with the maxilla btw, before u start about THEIR development end age.


if you spend more than 2 seconds thinking - you will realize that turning your head anywhere off perfect side makes maxillary projection look WORSE. there is no way to fraud it. looking up or down is irrelevant, as cephalometric landmarks are used to get the maxillary projection angle - and they are at constant positions. a good example (if you dont get it still) is the same way you cannot fraud past the FHP. as for tilting the head - i would need to tilt it a LOT to get the angle to change THAT much, and as you can see there is no head tilt in the pic at all. plus, the triangle would then be squished - and its not. easy geometry my nigga

Seems like we’re the only ones in this post who know what we’re talking about, and this thread on BOTB is a joke. They need to change it.