Chintuck22
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This is MSE:
Expands the width of maxilla, mouth, nasal base, and zygomatics expansion. You would need corticopuncture done so you can expand with MSDO at the same rate.
This is MSDO:
MSDO expands the lower jaw (particularly chin). The lower jaw can follow only so much the forced expansion the maxilla is subjected to from the MSE. This, in combination with the MSE can widen the chin, expand the palate, increase the lateral protrusion of the zygos
MSDO expands this much. This is from MSDO only:
It helped his midface, fwhr, and NCT a bit (wtf).
Now for the sake of thread, let's imagine that you were about to expand 20mm (extreme case), usually your safe bet is to expand 5-10mm, but when MSE is done simultaneously with MSDO, there wouldn't be much to rish about, other than bite correction.
You should done MSDO together with MSE, because if you're spliting the bone and expanding it, then you're literally changing the angulation of your tempomandibular joint. You're probably gonna need a little orthodontic movement of the molars to get them to match perfectly if you're doing MSE with MSDO, because MSDO expands the front teeth more than the back teeths.
⚠ The key is to do MSE and MSDO at the exact same time with the exact same amount of expansion, because than not only the chin would be expanded outward, also the rest of the mandible and thus the condiles can move in their natural place with the expansion of the maxilla...
⚠ You'll also need braces to avoid diastemas simultaneously, but that's optional, consult with your orthodontist about when should you install braces.
FACEPULLING
- We already know what facepulling does. You can combine MSE + MSDO with facepuller if you want to *attempt* to protract your maxilla. Maxillary protraction is extremely slow in adults and 17 months are required to get just 1.7 millimiters of forward growth, while wearing it 14 hours a day (@nelson facepuller according to @Lorsss ). There are very few studies on adult facepulling yet all the ones on it says it’s legit.
MATHEMATICS
So 1.7 millimiters of forward growth, while wearing it 14 hours a day (NON-MSE)
And for every extra hour you want to spend into facepulling, add 0.12mm into your result, we got that number by deviding 1.7 (Results) by 14 (Number of hours).
So if i facepulled for 20 hours per day, it'll be:
1.7 + (0.12 × 6) = 2.42mm (in 17 months)
⚠ Now remember that i previously mentioned the MSE changes in forward growth (10mm of expansion equals 1.2mm of FORWARD GROWTH !!), so while you're wearing MSE, you can except the extra forward growth
⚠ I don't know how many turns per day are done with MSE + MSDO, so i would appreciate if someone make that calculation for me (calculate how many forward growth are created daily through the period of time while you're having MSE attached - Ideally until you expand 10-20mm)
ANOTHER MEASUREMENT
According to the study, a girl have gained 1.5mm using bone anchored facepuller for 4 months. She was 19 years old, and she facepulled for 18-20 hours per day.
www.hindawi.com
- 1.5mm forward growth from 4 months with 0.5kg
1 year = 4.5 mm
2 years = 9mm
3 years = 13.5 mm
4 years = 18mm
5 years = 22.5 mm
6 years = 27mm
- 6mm forward growth from 4 months with 2kg (@nelson dowden appliance + MSE + IMDO)
1 year = 18mm
2 years = 36mm
Now of course, you will eventually meet the rule of diminishing returns, not to undermine the statement. Since i'm not knowledgeable enough to answer the genetic limit of forward growth, someone else should mention this in the comments (not something important either).
But ANOTHER thing to put into consideration is location of the micro-implant placement during facepulling - a.k.a pulling upwards exclusively. The girl from the previous study pulled downwards, 30 degrees up instead of down should give her at least 3x faster and better results. Pulling upwards was the ONLY direction that resulted in high levels of compression on all of the circummaxillary sutures, which is what generates the bone for forward growth
Look at this paper: https://scinapse.io/papers/1603230182
From this paper this is the typical maxilla displacement resulting from a microimplant assisted palate expander like MSE, Hyrax using a facepuller at a -30 degrees angle:
Look at how insignifiant is the forward displacement and how it displace your maxilla downward.
Now look at the displacement if the micro-implant was placed in a better location with a pulling angle of -15 degrees (Simulation C, picture on the right on the second picture) :
look at how signifiant is the forward displacement, look at how the maxilla rotate ccw.
TL;DR
MSE + MSDO + FACEPULLING
MIGHT BE THE NEW 'HOLLY TRINITY'
OF PSL !
Tagging relevant users & brocels
@retard @Sergio-OMS @nelson @goat2x @Kingkellz @SayNoToRotting @Rob Paul'sHeight @Daw
@yorker12 @Slyfex8 @BalkanPig @rightfulcel @Morgothos @Won'tStopNoodling @Gudru
@Dr Shekelberg @reptiles @Goblin @Lorsss @IncelWithNoLuck @TsarTsar444
@NewParasite @tincelw @Mohamad @Acnno @Lev Peshkov
@larsanova69 @Chad1212 @54UD4D3 @Arkantos
@Britishlooksmaxxer @john2
@Lifeisgood72
Expands the width of maxilla, mouth, nasal base, and zygomatics expansion. You would need corticopuncture done so you can expand with MSDO at the same rate.
MSE Results (Cheekbones width, maxilla).
10mm of MSE equals =
8.4 mm - cheekbones width (0.84mm gain for every milimeter of MSE expansion)
1.2 mm - Maxilla forward growth (upper and lower)
10mm of MSE equals =
8.4 mm - cheekbones width (0.84mm gain for every milimeter of MSE expansion)
1.2 mm - Maxilla forward growth (upper and lower)
This is MSDO:
MSDO expands the lower jaw (particularly chin). The lower jaw can follow only so much the forced expansion the maxilla is subjected to from the MSE. This, in combination with the MSE can widen the chin, expand the palate, increase the lateral protrusion of the zygos
MSDO expands this much. This is from MSDO only:
It helped his midface, fwhr, and NCT a bit (wtf).Now for the sake of thread, let's imagine that you were about to expand 20mm (extreme case), usually your safe bet is to expand 5-10mm, but when MSE is done simultaneously with MSDO, there wouldn't be much to rish about, other than bite correction.
You should done MSDO together with MSE, because if you're spliting the bone and expanding it, then you're literally changing the angulation of your tempomandibular joint. You're probably gonna need a little orthodontic movement of the molars to get them to match perfectly if you're doing MSE with MSDO, because MSDO expands the front teeth more than the back teeths.
⚠ The key is to do MSE and MSDO at the exact same time with the exact same amount of expansion, because than not only the chin would be expanded outward, also the rest of the mandible and thus the condiles can move in their natural place with the expansion of the maxilla...
⚠ You'll also need braces to avoid diastemas simultaneously, but that's optional, consult with your orthodontist about when should you install braces.
FACEPULLING
- We already know what facepulling does. You can combine MSE + MSDO with facepuller if you want to *attempt* to protract your maxilla. Maxillary protraction is extremely slow in adults and 17 months are required to get just 1.7 millimiters of forward growth, while wearing it 14 hours a day (@nelson facepuller according to @Lorsss ). There are very few studies on adult facepulling yet all the ones on it says it’s legit.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MATHEMATICS
So 1.7 millimiters of forward growth, while wearing it 14 hours a day (NON-MSE)
And for every extra hour you want to spend into facepulling, add 0.12mm into your result, we got that number by deviding 1.7 (Results) by 14 (Number of hours).
So if i facepulled for 20 hours per day, it'll be:
1.7 + (0.12 × 6) = 2.42mm (in 17 months)
CONTEST
| 1.7 - Result you get from facepulling for 14h |
| 0.12 - Milimeters change in one hour apart |
| 6 - Hours remaining to reach 20h (If i multiplied by 2, i would get 16h, and you can't multiply more than 10). |
⚠ Now remember that i previously mentioned the MSE changes in forward growth (10mm of expansion equals 1.2mm of FORWARD GROWTH !!), so while you're wearing MSE, you can except the extra forward growth
⚠ I don't know how many turns per day are done with MSE + MSDO, so i would appreciate if someone make that calculation for me (calculate how many forward growth are created daily through the period of time while you're having MSE attached - Ideally until you expand 10-20mm)
ANOTHER MEASUREMENT
According to the study, a girl have gained 1.5mm using bone anchored facepuller for 4 months. She was 19 years old, and she facepulled for 18-20 hours per day.
Expansion/Facemask Treatment of an Adult Class III Malocclusion
The orthodontic treatment of class III malocclusion with a maxillary deficiency is often treated with maxillary protraction with or without expansion. Skeletal and dental changes have been documented which have combined for the protraction of the maxilla and the correction of the class III...
- 1.5mm forward growth from 4 months with 0.5kg
1 year = 4.5 mm
2 years = 9mm
3 years = 13.5 mm
4 years = 18mm
5 years = 22.5 mm
6 years = 27mm
. . .
- Therefore, if we use facepuller with much more force, and combine it with MSE, we are gonna get twice the more changes !
- 6mm forward growth from 4 months with 2kg (@nelson dowden appliance + MSE + IMDO)
1 year = 18mm
2 years = 36mm
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now of course, you will eventually meet the rule of diminishing returns, not to undermine the statement. Since i'm not knowledgeable enough to answer the genetic limit of forward growth, someone else should mention this in the comments (not something important either).
But ANOTHER thing to put into consideration is location of the micro-implant placement during facepulling - a.k.a pulling upwards exclusively. The girl from the previous study pulled downwards, 30 degrees up instead of down should give her at least 3x faster and better results. Pulling upwards was the ONLY direction that resulted in high levels of compression on all of the circummaxillary sutures, which is what generates the bone for forward growth
Look at this paper: https://scinapse.io/papers/1603230182
From this paper this is the typical maxilla displacement resulting from a microimplant assisted palate expander like MSE, Hyrax using a facepuller at a -30 degrees angle:
Look at how insignifiant is the forward displacement and how it displace your maxilla downward.
Now look at the displacement if the micro-implant was placed in a better location with a pulling angle of -15 degrees (Simulation C, picture on the right on the second picture) :
look at how signifiant is the forward displacement, look at how the maxilla rotate ccw.
TL;DR MSE + MSDO + FACEPULLING
MIGHT BE THE NEW 'HOLLY TRINITY'
OF PSL !
Tagging relevant users & brocels @retard @Sergio-OMS @nelson @goat2x @Kingkellz @SayNoToRotting @Rob Paul'sHeight @Daw
@yorker12 @Slyfex8 @BalkanPig @rightfulcel @Morgothos @Won'tStopNoodling @Gudru
@Dr Shekelberg @reptiles @Goblin @Lorsss @IncelWithNoLuck @TsarTsar444
@NewParasite @tincelw @Mohamad @Acnno @Lev Peshkov
@larsanova69 @Chad1212 @54UD4D3 @Arkantos
@Britishlooksmaxxer @john2
@Lifeisgood72
