MSE + MSDO + FM

[Chintuck22]

@Swolepenisman Hi, how are you ?

 

[Swolepenisman]

@Swolepenisman does your pee-pee swole ?

Perma

 

[Deleted member 5634]

Yeah rotation advancement and implantation thats the scheme im going through

You mean midface implants?

 

[reptiles]

You mean midface implants?

Yeah thats why i said implantation its the ideal path for non down ward grown people.

Here is the true face of horror.

 

[RichardwillImprove]

without splitting the suture is literally useless for maxillary protraction. it’s still taking me some time even with all my sutures loose. but I have 2+ years to protract because of my ortho’s technique to turn twice and back turn twice the next day

Wait what do u have a thread explaining ur ortho method.

 

[Deleted member 7776]

Great job. So if MSDO doesn't really improve the mandible, then would IMDO be the one to choose to go with MSE to get maxilla+mandible gains simultaneously?

 

[Swerves]

How much maxillary protraction is even needed to go from a flat maxilla to ideal maxilla position? I forgot where I got this pic from but iirc it's a 4mm submalar implant result. If you're able to get this much volume increase from 4mm then most people would be able to benefit considerably from MSE + FM. I spoke to the doctor Ronald Ead went to and he said between 3-5mm of protraction is standard in adult patients, and typically these patients only wear the facemasks for 8-10 hours daily for 6-7 months (I don't know what angle he pulls at or how much force he uses, but he was open to using any facemask design and bollard plates). Keep in mind this woman's cheekbones didn't move at all, just the submalar area; MSE + FM would move both.

 

[RichardwillImprove]

How much maxillary protraction is even needed to go from a flat maxilla to ideal maxilla position? I forgot where I got this pic from but iirc it's a 4mm submalar implant result. If you're able to get this much volume increase from 4mm then most people would be able to benefit considerably from MSE + FM. I spoke to the doctor Ronald Ead went to and he said between 3-5mm of protraction is standard in adult patients, and typically these patients only wear the facemasks for 8-10 hours daily for 6-7 months (I don't know what angle he pulls at or how much force he uses, but he was open to using any facemask design and bollard plates). Keep in mind this woman's cheekbones didn't move at all, just the submalar area; MSE + FM would move both.

How do they wear it for 7 months doesn’t expansion take less also would the whole maxilla move with surgical assist. And doesnt facemask cause downward growth.

 

[Swerves]

How do they wear it for 7 months doesn’t expansion take less also would the whole maxilla move with surgical assist. And doesnt facemask cause downward growth.

Expansion is 3 months but the MSE stays in longer to prevent relapse. He also said he was open to using MSE multiple times. I'm not sure what you mean by surgical assistance; Dr. Sergio did talk about using a lefort 1 cut to achieve more protraction with a facemask but that obviously wouldn't bring anything above the cut forward.

I'm not really sure on the rotation achievable with facepulling. I was under the impression that at least a slight ccw was achievable but people in this thread are saying it's impossible. I know at least one person on this forum claimed to have gotten a nasal tip rotation in the first 4-8 weeks with MSE + facepulling, so that would support that it's possible but he hasn't provided x-rays. MSE itself has been documented to achieve 2-4mm of protraction by itself (Dr. Won Moon study), and protraction is more effective the closer it is to the sutures being loosened, so it seems possible that he was telling the truth. The doctor did tell me that he would check to see if my midface needs to be shortened when I see him. I didn't ask him to expand on it since I had a billion questions but I guess I'll see what he says when I see him.

Facepulling has been documented to cause downward growth at a certain pull angle. I think it was -30 degrees, but in the Dr. Won Moon simulations -15 degrees somehow pulls it upwards? My understanding of this is very shaky.

 

[Swerves]

Also with everyone talking about MSDO and IMDO, I want to provide this video:

The mandible was expanded dramatically in every direction and imo is very aesthetic. I have a few facial deformities from narrow palate (recessed and narrow jaw, recessed midface, etc) so I consulted with this doctor also. He wasn't fazed at all when I told him I want this procedure + MSE + FM + other major surgery. I asked if he could use a picture of my mom (she has extremely aesthetic jaw and it looks like mine but properly developed lol) to achieve a similar appearance and he said yes. I need 15+ mm of bigonial width and I have a recessed chin so I was pretty happy with everything he said.

A few years ago I saw an orthodontist who referred me to a jaw surgeon for my recessed chin. This was before I knew more about proper facial development so I assumed I just had a recessed chin. Both of these doctors didn't mention anything about a recessed midface, narrow palate, etc., despite me mentioning I wanted a wider smile and how I thought it was weird that my submalar region lacked volume, and instead recommended I get a sliding genioplasty and braces to correct a slight open bite (lol). Anyway, I followed their advice so now I have 2 plates on my mandible. This doctor told me that these plates are not a problem and he can remove them before the procedure.

Ima be mad as fuck if this post garners enough people bothering him for surgery that he increases the price before he operates on me, but he said he takes on these complicated cases for $5k, and tooth implants are also inexpensive but he did say something about mandibular lateral incisors not being possible to implant with this procedure. Not sure what other teeth wouldn't be possible but anything on the top arch is possible to implant simultaneously.

 

[AscendingHero]

@Chintuck22 bro can you let pm you or can u pm me first, cuz I have some questions, for some reason it's not letting me pm u

 

[Chintuck22]

@Chintuck22 bro can you let pm you or can u pm me first, cuz I have some questions, for some reason it's not letting me pm u

You can ask it here bro, if it's about rating, i think i cannot do rating because it's subjective to the most people here and you might not like the feedback

 

[AscendingHero]

alrighty then here goes

1. Is there a way to reduce how much the nostrils expand during MSE treatment, like I want to get the nasal airway changes but I don't want wide ass nostrils and wider nasal alars.

2. How can one fix a overjet/proclined alveolar bone?

3. How much forward growth do you think one can get if they're 14 with the fm hooked with the MSE

4. What effect does chewing+MSE with sutures loosened have?

5. Can MSE widen the orbitals?

6. How can I get a bigger browridge/more projecting supraorbitals w/o surgery

7. How can i improve infraorbitals without fillers/implants

8. How can I get my mandible to project more to allow chin projection?

9. How can I get a bigger alveolar bone- I have crowding on my lower mandibular arch?

10. How can I get more saggital projection of my zygos and whats your stance on bonesmashing?

@Chintuck22

 

[AscendingHero]

Sorry for the long ass post and plethora of questions

 

[Chintuck22]

alrighty then here goes

1. Is there a way to reduce how much the nostrils expand during MSE treatment, like I want to get the nasal airway changes but I don't want wide ass nostrils and wider nasal alars.

2. How can one fix a overjet/proclined alveolar bone?

3. How much forward growth do you think one can get if they're 14 with the fm hooked with the MSE

4. What effect does chewing+MSE with sutures loosened have?

5. Can MSE widen the orbitals?

6. How can I get a bigger browridge/more projecting supraorbitals w/o surgery

7. How can i improve infraorbitals without fillers/implants

8. How can I get my mandible to project more to allow chin projection?

9. How can I get a bigger alveolar bone- I have crowding on my lower mandibular arch?

10. How can I get more saggital projection of my zygos and whats your stance on bonesmashing?

@Chintuck22

1. Only if you get horizontal cut, but MSE change to nostrils would be insignificant anyways


2. Overjet if not severe can be corrected with invisalign, otherwise it's treated with braces


3. I don't know for sure as we don't have people who wear the mask for too long, it also depends on the time × force induced in the process. You can calculate that in the thread, maybe you would also need BSSO for jaw because facepulling will likely leave you with overbite, the jaw don't follow the madible unfortunately, and MSE won't make any difference


4. It could enchance the effect of chewing even significantly (lower ramus, more lateral projection..)


5. SMARPE could widen the IPD in combination with chewing, but there is no way to other way get more pfl


6. I have heard here that chewing is also involved in the affection of browridge, so you should try your best


7. Maybe fat grafting or infraorbital rim implants. Unfortunately there isn't much you can do about your undereye area, not even facepulling is gonna help as the facepulling is advancing only lower maxilla (lefort 1 area)


8. There is surgical way, bsso, saggital split osteotomy, and genioplasty for the chin, and as for the jaw aesthetics, you can do buccal fat removal to increase the prominence of your hollow cheeks and you can do wraparound implants aswell


9. Usually it's corrected with braces, but if you want, you can get MSDO for the lower jaw


10. Maybe bonesmashing would help but you have to be extremely patient to not induce facial assymetry, bonesmashing is a long process and i would rather save money and get myself some implants than doing bonesmashing on face, it's just my oppinion of course



There you go bro, all questions answered

 

[Pietrosiek]

mirin ur effort

 

[Chintuck22]

mirin ur effort

Appreciate the comment bro

 

[Deleted member 8853]

MSE is the false prophet, Lefort is the real deal

Lefort 3 + wraparound jaw implants or rope.
Anything else is coping bs

 

[AscendingHero]

Only if you get horizontal cut, but MSE change to nostrils would be insignificant anyways

What's a horizontal cut?

Overjet if not severe can be corrected with invisalign, otherwise it's treated with braces

What's classifies/differentiates a severe overjet from a regular overjet?

 

[Mewton]

I dont know much about this but what about the huge tooth gaps? They dont look healthy at all

 

[MSEinvestigator]

it's easy to praise the facepuller if you have never tried it. One who facepulls with Sandra Kahn's BOW and @nelson 's mouth appliance must deal with:

• terrible pain in the frontal area of the palate
• stunted movements, all daily activities like using a computer become hard
• liters of saliva flowing out of one's mouth, causing dryness in the lips
• annoying pressure on the forehead

It's humanely impossbile to wear this 15 hours a day for two years.
All this sufference would lead to 2 millimiters of forward growth if you are very lucky.

it's 100 times better to invest your times in a bimax surgery + genioplasty

View attachment 726724

the facepull appliance I used from March to April during the lockdown

View attachment 726726

Dude how did u make that

 

[johnny4612]

At 25, I have been using an expander/aligner for two years. My face has improved, and now it's time to remove it and use a device known as a "bite", which you wear only at night, to maintain the results.

Does the bite really help maintain your progress in terms of expansion and facial changes, or will it only keep your teeth straight while allowing your expansion to revert to its previous state?

 

[IncelMaxxer]

This is MSE:

View attachment 726276

View attachment 726279

Expands the width of maxilla, mouth, nasal base, and zygomatics expansion. You would need corticopuncture done so you can expand with MSDO at the same rate.

Spoiler: MSE Results

MSE Results (Cheekbones width, maxilla).

10mm of MSE equals =

8.4 mm - cheekbones width (0.84mm gain for every milimeter of MSE expansion)

1.2 mm - Maxilla forward growth (upper and lower)

This is MSDO:

View attachment 726262

MSDO expands the lower jaw (particularly chin). The lower jaw can follow only so much the forced expansion the maxilla is subjected to from the MSE. This, in combination with the MSE can widen the chin, expand the palate, increase the lateral protrusion of the zygos



MSDO expands this much. This is from MSDO only:

View attachment 726234

It helped his midface, fwhr, and NCT a bit (wtf).


Now for the sake of thread, let's imagine that you were about to expand 20mm (extreme case), usually your safe bet is to expand 5-10mm, but when MSE is done simultaneously with MSDO, there wouldn't be much to rish about, other than bite correction.

View attachment 726259

You should done MSDO together with MSE, because if you're spliting the bone and expanding it, then you're literally changing the angulation of your tempomandibular joint. You're probably gonna need a little orthodontic movement of the molars to get them to match perfectly if you're doing MSE with MSDO, because MSDO expands the front teeth more than the back teeths.


⚠ The key is to do MSE and MSDO at the exact same time with the exact same amount of expansion, because than not only the chin would be expanded outward, also the rest of the mandible and thus the condiles can move in their natural place with the expansion of the maxilla...

View attachment 726269View attachment 726270

⚠ You'll also need braces to avoid diastemas simultaneously, but that's optional, consult with your orthodontist about when should you install braces.



FACEPULLING

- We already know what facepulling does. You can combine MSE + MSDO with facepuller if you want to *attempt* to protract your maxilla. Maxillary protraction is extremely slow in adults and 17 months are required to get just 1.7 millimiters of forward growth, while wearing it 14 hours a day (@nelson facepuller according to @Lorsss ). There are very few studies on adult facepulling yet all the ones on it says it’s legit.

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MATHEMATICS

So 1.7 millimiters of forward growth, while wearing it 14 hours a day (NON-MSE)
And for every extra hour you want to spend into facepulling, add 0.12mm into your result, we got that number by deviding 1.7 (Results) by 14 (Number of hours).


So if i facepulled for 20 hours per day, it'll be:

1.7 + (0.12 × 6) = 2.42mm (in 17 months)

CONTEST​

1.7 - Result you get from facepulling for 14h

0.12 - Milimeters change in one hour apart

6 - Hours remaining to reach 20h (If i multiplied by 2, i would get 16h, and you can't multiply more than 10).

⚠ Now remember that i previously mentioned the MSE changes in forward growth (10mm of expansion equals 1.2mm of FORWARD GROWTH !!), so while you're wearing MSE, you can except the extra forward growth


⚠ I don't know how many turns per day are done with MSE + MSDO, so i would appreciate if someone make that calculation for me (calculate how many forward growth are created daily through the period of time while you're having MSE attached - Ideally until you expand 10-20mm)






ANOTHER MEASUREMENT


According to the study, a girl have gained 1.5mm using bone anchored facepuller for 4 months. She was 19 years old, and she facepulled for 18-20 hours per day.

Expansion/Facemask Treatment of an Adult Class III Malocclusion

The orthodontic treatment of class III malocclusion with a maxillary deficiency is often treated with maxillary protraction with or without expansion. Skeletal and dental changes have been documented which have combined for the protraction of the maxilla and the correction of the class III...

www.hindawi.com

- 1.5mm forward growth from 4 months with 0.5kg
1 year = 4.5 mm
2 years = 9mm
3 years = 13.5 mm
4 years = 18mm
5 years = 22.5 mm
6 years = 27mm

. . .​

- Therefore, if we use facepuller with much more force, and combine it with MSE, we are gonna get twice the more changes !

- 6mm forward growth from 4 months with 2kg (@nelson dowden appliance + MSE + IMDO)
1 year = 18mm
2 years = 36mm

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Now of course, you will eventually meet the rule of diminishing returns, not to undermine the statement. Since i'm not knowledgeable enough to answer the genetic limit of forward growth, someone else should mention this in the comments (not something important either).

But ANOTHER thing to put into consideration is location of the micro-implant placement during facepulling - a.k.a pulling upwards exclusively. The girl from the previous study pulled downwards, 30 degrees up instead of down should give her at least 3x faster and better results. Pulling upwards was the ONLY direction that resulted in high levels of compression on all of the circummaxillary sutures, which is what generates the bone for forward growth


Look at this paper: https://scinapse.io/papers/1603230182

From this paper this is the typical maxilla displacement resulting from a microimplant assisted palate expander like MSE, Hyrax using a facepuller at a -30 degrees angle:

View attachment 726548View attachment 726549


Look at how insignifiant is the forward displacement and how it displace your maxilla downward.

Now look at the displacement if the micro-implant was placed in a better location with a pulling angle of -15 degrees (Simulation C, picture on the right on the second picture) :

View attachment 726551View attachment 726552

look at how signifiant is the forward displacement, look at how the maxilla rotate ccw.

TL;DR

MSE + MSDO + FACEPULLING
MIGHT BE THE NEW 'HOLLY TRINITY'
OF PSL !



View attachment 726565





Tagging relevant users & brocels

@retard @Sergio-OMS @nelson @goat2x @Kingkellz @SayNoToRotting @Rob Paul'sHeight @Daw
@yorker12 @Slyfex8 @BalkanPig @rightfulcel @Morgothos @Won'tStopNoodling @Gudru
@Dr Shekelberg @reptiles @Goblin @Lorsss @IncelWithNoLuck @TsarTsar444
@NewParasite @tincelw @Mohamad @Acnno @Lev Peshkov
@larsanova69 @Chad1212 @54UD4D3 @Arkantos
@Britishlooksmaxxer @john2
@Lifeisgood72 ​

Now the question is where do I get this and how much does it cost?