MSE + MSDO + FM

[reptiles]

This is MSE:

View attachment 726276

View attachment 726279

Expands the width of maxilla, mouth, nasal base, and zygomatics expansion. You would need corticopuncture done so you can expand with MSDO at the same rate.

Spoiler: MSE Results

MSE Results (Cheekbones width, maxilla).

10mm of MSE equals =

8.4 mm - cheekbones width (0.84mm gain for every milimeter of MSE expansion)

1.2 mm - Maxilla forward growth (upper and lower)

This is MSDO:

View attachment 726262

MSDO expands the lower jaw (particularly chin). The lower jaw can follow only so much the forced expansion the maxilla is subjected to from the MSE. This, in combination with the MSE can widen the chin, expand the palate, increase the lateral protrusion of the zygos



MSDO expands this much. This is from MSDO only:

View attachment 726234

It helped his midface, fwhr, and NCT a bit (wtf).


Now for the sake of thread, let's imagine that you were about to expand 20mm (extreme case), usually your safe bet is to expand 5-10mm, but when MSE is done simultaneously with MSDO, there wouldn't be much to rish about, other than bite correction.

View attachment 726259

You should done MSDO together with MSE, because if you're spliting the bone and expanding it, then you're literally changing the angulation of your tempomandibular joint. You're probably gonna need a little orthodontic movement of the molars to get them to match perfectly if you're doing MSE with MSDO, because MSDO expands the front teeth more than the back teeths.


⚠ The key is to do MSE and MSDO at the exact same time with the exact same amount of expansion, because than not only the chin would be expanded outward, also the rest of the mandible and thus the condiles can move in their natural place with the expansion of the maxilla...

View attachment 726269View attachment 726270

⚠ You'll also need braces to avoid diastemas simultaneously, but that's optional, consult with your orthodontist about when should you install braces.



FACEPULLING

- We already know what facepulling does. You can combine MSE + MSDO with facepuller if you want to *attempt* to protract your maxilla. Maxillary protraction is extremely slow in adults and 17 months are required to get just 1.7 millimiters of forward growth, while wearing it 14 hours a day (@nelson facepuller according to @Lorsss ). There are very few studies on adult facepulling yet all the ones on it says it’s legit.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

MATHEMATICS

So 1.7 millimiters of forward growth, while wearing it 14 hours a day (NON-MSE)
And for every extra hour you want to spend into facepulling, add 0.12mm into your result, we got that number by deviding 1.7 (Results) by 14 (Number of hours).


So if i facepulled for 20 hours per day, it'll be:

1.7 + (0.12 × 6) = 2.42mm (in 17 months)

CONTEST​

1.7 - Result you get from facepulling for 14h

0.12 - Milimeters change in one hour apart

6 - Hours remaining to reach 20h (If i multiplied by 2, i would get 16h, and you can't multiply more than 10).

⚠ Now remember that i previously mentioned the MSE changes in forward growth (10mm of expansion equals 1.2mm of FORWARD GROWTH !!), so while you're wearing MSE, you can except the extra forward growth


⚠ I don't know how many turns per day are done with MSE + MSDO, so i would appreciate if someone make that calculation for me (calculate how many forward growth are created daily through the period of time while you're having MSE attached - Ideally until you expand 10-20mm)






ANOTHER MEASUREMENT


According to the study, a girl have gained 1.5mm using bone anchored facepuller for 4 months. She was 19 years old, and she facepulled for 18-20 hours per day.

Expansion/Facemask Treatment of an Adult Class III Malocclusion

The orthodontic treatment of class III malocclusion with a maxillary deficiency is often treated with maxillary protraction with or without expansion. Skeletal and dental changes have been documented which have combined for the protraction of the maxilla and the correction of the class III...

www.hindawi.com

- 1.5mm forward growth from 4 months with 0.5kg
1 year = 4.5 mm
2 years = 9mm
3 years = 13.5 mm
4 years = 18mm
5 years = 22.5 mm
6 years = 27mm

. . .​

- Therefore, if we use facepuller with much more force, and combine it with MSE, we are gonna get twice the more changes !

- 6mm forward growth from 4 months with 2kg (@nelson dowden appliance + MSE + IMDO)
1 year = 18mm
2 years = 36mm

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

Now of course, you will eventually meet the rule of diminishing returns, not to undermine the statement. Since i'm not knowledgeable enough to answer the genetic limit of forward growth, someone else should mention this in the comments (not something important either).

But ANOTHER thing to put into consideration is location of the micro-implant placement during facepulling - a.k.a pulling upwards exclusively. The girl from the previous study pulled downwards, 30 degrees up instead of down should give her at least 3x faster and better results. Pulling upwards was the ONLY direction that resulted in high levels of compression on all of the circummaxillary sutures, which is what generates the bone for forward growth


Look at this paper: https://scinapse.io/papers/1603230182

From this paper this is the typical maxilla displacement resulting from a microimplant assisted palate expander like MSE, Hyrax using a facepuller at a -30 degrees angle:

View attachment 726548View attachment 726549


Look at how insignifiant is the forward displacement and how it displace your maxilla downward.

Now look at the displacement if the micro-implant was placed in a better location with a pulling angle of -15 degrees (Simulation C, picture on the right on the second picture) :

View attachment 726551View attachment 726552

look at how signifiant is the forward displacement, look at how the maxilla rotate ccw.

TL;DR

MSE + MSDO + FACEPULLING
MIGHT BE THE NEW 'HOLLY TRINITY'
OF PSL !



View attachment 726565





Tagging relevant users & brocels

@retard @Sergio-OMS @nelson @goat2x @Kingkellz @SayNoToRotting @Rob Paul'sHeight @Daw
@yorker12 @Slyfex8 @BalkanPig @rightfulcel @Morgothos @Won'tStopNoodling @Gudru
@Dr Shekelberg @reptiles @Goblin @Lorsss @IncelWithNoLuck @TsarTsar444
@NewParasite @tincelw @Mohamad @Acnno @Lev Peshkov
@larsanova69 @Chad1212 @54UD4D3 @Arkantos
@Britishlooksmaxxer @john2
@Lifeisgood72 ​

@goat2x is facefull even legit ? the rest seems legit but the premise of literally fixing downwards growth seems to good to be true

 

[Chintuck22]

it's easy to praise the facepuller if you have never tried it. One who facepulls with Sandra Kahn's BOW must deal with:

• terrible pain in the frontal area of the palate
• stunted movements, all daily activities like using a computer become hard
• liters of saliva flowing out of one's mouth, causing dryness in the lips
• annoying pressure on the forehead

View attachment 726724

the facepull appliance I used from March to April during the lockdown

View attachment 726726

Have you used silicone ?

 

[Deleted member 3020]

The facepulling thing is really interesting but unpractical, are there any cases of people using it for long periods of time? 1+ years i mean. I nedd at least 10 mm

7 months 9 hours daily 13 yo

 

[SPFromNY914]

This is MSE:

View attachment 726276

View attachment 726279

Expands the width of maxilla, mouth, nasal base, and zygomatics expansion. You would need corticopuncture done so you can expand with MSDO at the same rate.

Spoiler: MSE Results

MSE Results (Cheekbones width, maxilla).

10mm of MSE equals =

8.4 mm - cheekbones width (0.84mm gain for every milimeter of MSE expansion)

1.2 mm - Maxilla forward growth (upper and lower)

This is MSDO:

View attachment 726262

MSDO expands the lower jaw (particularly chin). The lower jaw can follow only so much the forced expansion the maxilla is subjected to from the MSE. This, in combination with the MSE can widen the chin, expand the palate, increase the lateral protrusion of the zygos



MSDO expands this much. This is from MSDO only:

View attachment 726234

It helped his midface, fwhr, and NCT a bit (wtf).


Now for the sake of thread, let's imagine that you were about to expand 20mm (extreme case), usually your safe bet is to expand 5-10mm, but when MSE is done simultaneously with MSDO, there wouldn't be much to rish about, other than bite correction.

View attachment 726259

You should done MSDO together with MSE, because if you're spliting the bone and expanding it, then you're literally changing the angulation of your tempomandibular joint. You're probably gonna need a little orthodontic movement of the molars to get them to match perfectly if you're doing MSE with MSDO, because MSDO expands the front teeth more than the back teeths.


⚠ The key is to do MSE and MSDO at the exact same time with the exact same amount of expansion, because than not only the chin would be expanded outward, also the rest of the mandible and thus the condiles can move in their natural place with the expansion of the maxilla...

View attachment 726269View attachment 726270

⚠ You'll also need braces to avoid diastemas simultaneously, but that's optional, consult with your orthodontist about when should you install braces.



FACEPULLING

- We already know what facepulling does. You can combine MSE + MSDO with facepuller if you want to *attempt* to protract your maxilla. Maxillary protraction is extremely slow in adults and 17 months are required to get just 1.7 millimiters of forward growth, while wearing it 14 hours a day (@nelson facepuller according to @Lorsss ). There are very few studies on adult facepulling yet all the ones on it says it’s legit.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

MATHEMATICS

So 1.7 millimiters of forward growth, while wearing it 14 hours a day (NON-MSE)
And for every extra hour you want to spend into facepulling, add 0.12mm into your result, we got that number by deviding 1.7 (Results) by 14 (Number of hours).


So if i facepulled for 20 hours per day, it'll be:

1.7 + (0.12 × 6) = 2.42mm (in 17 months)

CONTEST​

1.7 - Result you get from facepulling for 14h

0.12 - Milimeters change in one hour apart

6 - Hours remaining to reach 20h (If i multiplied by 2, i would get 16h, and you can't multiply more than 10).

⚠ Now remember that i previously mentioned the MSE changes in forward growth (10mm of expansion equals 1.2mm of FORWARD GROWTH !!), so while you're wearing MSE, you can except the extra forward growth


⚠ I don't know how many turns per day are done with MSE + MSDO, so i would appreciate if someone make that calculation for me (calculate how many forward growth are created daily through the period of time while you're having MSE attached - Ideally until you expand 10-20mm)






ANOTHER MEASUREMENT


According to the study, a girl have gained 1.5mm using bone anchored facepuller for 4 months. She was 19 years old, and she facepulled for 18-20 hours per day.

Expansion/Facemask Treatment of an Adult Class III Malocclusion

The orthodontic treatment of class III malocclusion with a maxillary deficiency is often treated with maxillary protraction with or without expansion. Skeletal and dental changes have been documented which have combined for the protraction of the maxilla and the correction of the class III...

www.hindawi.com

- 1.5mm forward growth from 4 months with 0.5kg
1 year = 4.5 mm
2 years = 9mm
3 years = 13.5 mm
4 years = 18mm
5 years = 22.5 mm
6 years = 27mm

. . .​

- Therefore, if we use facepuller with much more force, and combine it with MSE, we are gonna get twice the more changes !

- 6mm forward growth from 4 months with 2kg (@nelson dowden appliance + MSE + IMDO)
1 year = 18mm
2 years = 36mm

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

Now of course, you will eventually meet the rule of diminishing returns, not to undermine the statement. Since i'm not knowledgeable enough to answer the genetic limit of forward growth, someone else should mention this in the comments (not something important either).

But ANOTHER thing to put into consideration is location of the micro-implant placement during facepulling - a.k.a pulling upwards exclusively. The girl from the previous study pulled downwards, 30 degrees up instead of down should give her at least 3x faster and better results. Pulling upwards was the ONLY direction that resulted in high levels of compression on all of the circummaxillary sutures, which is what generates the bone for forward growth


Look at this paper: https://scinapse.io/papers/1603230182

From this paper this is the typical maxilla displacement resulting from a microimplant assisted palate expander like MSE, Hyrax using a facepuller at a -30 degrees angle:

View attachment 726548View attachment 726549


Look at how insignifiant is the forward displacement and how it displace your maxilla downward.

Now look at the displacement if the micro-implant was placed in a better location with a pulling angle of -15 degrees (Simulation C, picture on the right on the second picture) :

View attachment 726551View attachment 726552

look at how signifiant is the forward displacement, look at how the maxilla rotate ccw.

TL;DR

MSE + MSDO + FACEPULLING
MIGHT BE THE NEW 'HOLLY TRINITY'
OF PSL !



View attachment 726565





Tagging relevant users & brocels

@retard @Sergio-OMS @nelson @goat2x @Kingkellz @SayNoToRotting @Rob Paul'sHeight @Daw
@yorker12 @Slyfex8 @BalkanPig @rightfulcel @Morgothos @Won'tStopNoodling @Gudru
@Dr Shekelberg @reptiles @Goblin @Lorsss @IncelWithNoLuck @TsarTsar444
@NewParasite @tincelw @Mohamad @Acnno @Lev Peshkov
@larsanova69 @Chad1212 @54UD4D3 @Arkantos
@Britishlooksmaxxer @john2
@Lifeisgood72 ​

Thoughts on someone with downward growth and overbite with small palate(Me) dong MSE+FM then IMDO after?

 

[Deleted member 5634]

All this sufference would lead to 2 millimiters of forward growth if you are very lucky

Thats the maximum you can get even tho you used it 2+ years?

 

[Lorsss]

Have you used silicone ?

yes

 

[goat2x]

@goat2x is facefull even legit ? the rest seems legit but the premise of literally fixing downwards growth seems to good to be true

this dowden shit?
no

 

[Deleted member 5634]

7 months 9 hours daily 13 yo View attachment 726728

Damn bro, she grew a full new skull, shit we are to old for this shit, ill be an uberchad if i got this at 11, shit

 

[SPFromNY914]

This is MSE:

View attachment 726276

View attachment 726279

Expands the width of maxilla, mouth, nasal base, and zygomatics expansion. You would need corticopuncture done so you can expand with MSDO at the same rate.

Spoiler: MSE Results

MSE Results (Cheekbones width, maxilla).

10mm of MSE equals =

8.4 mm - cheekbones width (0.84mm gain for every milimeter of MSE expansion)

1.2 mm - Maxilla forward growth (upper and lower)

This is MSDO:

View attachment 726262

MSDO expands the lower jaw (particularly chin). The lower jaw can follow only so much the forced expansion the maxilla is subjected to from the MSE. This, in combination with the MSE can widen the chin, expand the palate, increase the lateral protrusion of the zygos



MSDO expands this much. This is from MSDO only:

View attachment 726234

It helped his midface, fwhr, and NCT a bit (wtf).


Now for the sake of thread, let's imagine that you were about to expand 20mm (extreme case), usually your safe bet is to expand 5-10mm, but when MSE is done simultaneously with MSDO, there wouldn't be much to rish about, other than bite correction.

View attachment 726259

You should done MSDO together with MSE, because if you're spliting the bone and expanding it, then you're literally changing the angulation of your tempomandibular joint. You're probably gonna need a little orthodontic movement of the molars to get them to match perfectly if you're doing MSE with MSDO, because MSDO expands the front teeth more than the back teeths.


⚠ The key is to do MSE and MSDO at the exact same time with the exact same amount of expansion, because than not only the chin would be expanded outward, also the rest of the mandible and thus the condiles can move in their natural place with the expansion of the maxilla...

View attachment 726269View attachment 726270

⚠ You'll also need braces to avoid diastemas simultaneously, but that's optional, consult with your orthodontist about when should you install braces.



FACEPULLING

- We already know what facepulling does. You can combine MSE + MSDO with facepuller if you want to *attempt* to protract your maxilla. Maxillary protraction is extremely slow in adults and 17 months are required to get just 1.7 millimiters of forward growth, while wearing it 14 hours a day (@nelson facepuller according to @Lorsss ). There are very few studies on adult facepulling yet all the ones on it says it’s legit.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

MATHEMATICS

So 1.7 millimiters of forward growth, while wearing it 14 hours a day (NON-MSE)
And for every extra hour you want to spend into facepulling, add 0.12mm into your result, we got that number by deviding 1.7 (Results) by 14 (Number of hours).


So if i facepulled for 20 hours per day, it'll be:

1.7 + (0.12 × 6) = 2.42mm (in 17 months)

CONTEST​

1.7 - Result you get from facepulling for 14h

0.12 - Milimeters change in one hour apart

6 - Hours remaining to reach 20h (If i multiplied by 2, i would get 16h, and you can't multiply more than 10).

⚠ Now remember that i previously mentioned the MSE changes in forward growth (10mm of expansion equals 1.2mm of FORWARD GROWTH !!), so while you're wearing MSE, you can except the extra forward growth


⚠ I don't know how many turns per day are done with MSE + MSDO, so i would appreciate if someone make that calculation for me (calculate how many forward growth are created daily through the period of time while you're having MSE attached - Ideally until you expand 10-20mm)






ANOTHER MEASUREMENT


According to the study, a girl have gained 1.5mm using bone anchored facepuller for 4 months. She was 19 years old, and she facepulled for 18-20 hours per day.

Expansion/Facemask Treatment of an Adult Class III Malocclusion

The orthodontic treatment of class III malocclusion with a maxillary deficiency is often treated with maxillary protraction with or without expansion. Skeletal and dental changes have been documented which have combined for the protraction of the maxilla and the correction of the class III...

www.hindawi.com

- 1.5mm forward growth from 4 months with 0.5kg
1 year = 4.5 mm
2 years = 9mm
3 years = 13.5 mm
4 years = 18mm
5 years = 22.5 mm
6 years = 27mm

. . .​

- Therefore, if we use facepuller with much more force, and combine it with MSE, we are gonna get twice the more changes !

- 6mm forward growth from 4 months with 2kg (@nelson dowden appliance + MSE + IMDO)
1 year = 18mm
2 years = 36mm

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

Now of course, you will eventually meet the rule of diminishing returns, not to undermine the statement. Since i'm not knowledgeable enough to answer the genetic limit of forward growth, someone else should mention this in the comments (not something important either).

But ANOTHER thing to put into consideration is location of the micro-implant placement during facepulling - a.k.a pulling upwards exclusively. The girl from the previous study pulled downwards, 30 degrees up instead of down should give her at least 3x faster and better results. Pulling upwards was the ONLY direction that resulted in high levels of compression on all of the circummaxillary sutures, which is what generates the bone for forward growth


Look at this paper: https://scinapse.io/papers/1603230182

From this paper this is the typical maxilla displacement resulting from a microimplant assisted palate expander like MSE, Hyrax using a facepuller at a -30 degrees angle:

View attachment 726548View attachment 726549


Look at how insignifiant is the forward displacement and how it displace your maxilla downward.

Now look at the displacement if the micro-implant was placed in a better location with a pulling angle of -15 degrees (Simulation C, picture on the right on the second picture) :

View attachment 726551View attachment 726552

look at how signifiant is the forward displacement, look at how the maxilla rotate ccw.

TL;DR

MSE + MSDO + FACEPULLING
MIGHT BE THE NEW 'HOLLY TRINITY'
OF PSL !



View attachment 726565





Tagging relevant users & brocels

@retard @Sergio-OMS @nelson @goat2x @Kingkellz @SayNoToRotting @Rob Paul'sHeight @Daw
@yorker12 @Slyfex8 @BalkanPig @rightfulcel @Morgothos @Won'tStopNoodling @Gudru
@Dr Shekelberg @reptiles @Goblin @Lorsss @IncelWithNoLuck @TsarTsar444
@NewParasite @tincelw @Mohamad @Acnno @Lev Peshkov
@larsanova69 @Chad1212 @54UD4D3 @Arkantos
@Britishlooksmaxxer @john2
@Lifeisgood72 ​

Bro, I noticed how you said if she pulled up and forward the results would've been 3x as much but is that a theory or proven? Because most people are now saying pulling upward won't result in maxilla upswing

 

[reptiles]

this dowden shit?
no

Fucking brutal atleast FWHR and a narrow mid mandible is fixable there is still no true fix for down wards grown minus surgery

 

[Lorsss]

Thats the maximum you can get even tho you used it 2+ years?

online there is one scientific study analyzing the effect of a maxillary protractor on an adult patient and the results were pretty bad.
I talked about this here

Facepulling

Facepulling is an experimental Looksmaxxing technique based on orthodontic maxillary protaction. The aim of a maxillary protaction is getting a face with better...

incels.wiki

 

[MentalistKebab]

it's easy to praise the facepuller if you have never tried it. One who facepulls with Sandra Kahn's BOW and @nelson 's mouth appliance must deal with:

• terrible pain in the frontal area of the palate
• stunted movements, all daily activities like using a computer become hard
• liters of saliva flowing out of one's mouth, causing dryness in the lips
• annoying pressure on the forehead

It's humanely impossbile to wear this 15 hours a day for two years.
All this sufference would lead to 2 millimiters of forward growth if you are very lucky.

it's 100 times better

Cope. Torturing yourself 2 years for 2mm forward growth with no rotation > bimax

 

[000]

This is MSE:

View attachment 726276

View attachment 726279

Expands the width of maxilla, mouth, nasal base, and zygomatics expansion. You would need corticopuncture done so you can expand with MSDO at the same rate.

Spoiler: MSE Results

MSE Results (Cheekbones width, maxilla).

10mm of MSE equals =

8.4 mm - cheekbones width (0.84mm gain for every milimeter of MSE expansion)

1.2 mm - Maxilla forward growth (upper and lower)

This is MSDO:

View attachment 726262

MSDO expands the lower jaw (particularly chin). The lower jaw can follow only so much the forced expansion the maxilla is subjected to from the MSE. This, in combination with the MSE can widen the chin, expand the palate, increase the lateral protrusion of the zygos



MSDO expands this much. This is from MSDO only:

View attachment 726234

It helped his midface, fwhr, and NCT a bit (wtf).


Now for the sake of thread, let's imagine that you were about to expand 20mm (extreme case), usually your safe bet is to expand 5-10mm, but when MSE is done simultaneously with MSDO, there wouldn't be much to rish about, other than bite correction.

View attachment 726259

You should done MSDO together with MSE, because if you're spliting the bone and expanding it, then you're literally changing the angulation of your tempomandibular joint. You're probably gonna need a little orthodontic movement of the molars to get them to match perfectly if you're doing MSE with MSDO, because MSDO expands the front teeth more than the back teeths.


⚠ The key is to do MSE and MSDO at the exact same time with the exact same amount of expansion, because than not only the chin would be expanded outward, also the rest of the mandible and thus the condiles can move in their natural place with the expansion of the maxilla...

View attachment 726269View attachment 726270

⚠ You'll also need braces to avoid diastemas simultaneously, but that's optional, consult with your orthodontist about when should you install braces.



FACEPULLING

- We already know what facepulling does. You can combine MSE + MSDO with facepuller if you want to *attempt* to protract your maxilla. Maxillary protraction is extremely slow in adults and 17 months are required to get just 1.7 millimiters of forward growth, while wearing it 14 hours a day (@nelson facepuller according to @Lorsss ). There are very few studies on adult facepulling yet all the ones on it says it’s legit.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

MATHEMATICS

So 1.7 millimiters of forward growth, while wearing it 14 hours a day (NON-MSE)
And for every extra hour you want to spend into facepulling, add 0.12mm into your result, we got that number by deviding 1.7 (Results) by 14 (Number of hours).


So if i facepulled for 20 hours per day, it'll be:

1.7 + (0.12 × 6) = 2.42mm (in 17 months)

CONTEST​

1.7 - Result you get from facepulling for 14h

0.12 - Milimeters change in one hour apart

6 - Hours remaining to reach 20h (If i multiplied by 2, i would get 16h, and you can't multiply more than 10).

⚠ Now remember that i previously mentioned the MSE changes in forward growth (10mm of expansion equals 1.2mm of FORWARD GROWTH !!), so while you're wearing MSE, you can except the extra forward growth


⚠ I don't know how many turns per day are done with MSE + MSDO, so i would appreciate if someone make that calculation for me (calculate how many forward growth are created daily through the period of time while you're having MSE attached - Ideally until you expand 10-20mm)






ANOTHER MEASUREMENT


According to the study, a girl have gained 1.5mm using bone anchored facepuller for 4 months. She was 19 years old, and she facepulled for 18-20 hours per day.

Expansion/Facemask Treatment of an Adult Class III Malocclusion

The orthodontic treatment of class III malocclusion with a maxillary deficiency is often treated with maxillary protraction with or without expansion. Skeletal and dental changes have been documented which have combined for the protraction of the maxilla and the correction of the class III...

www.hindawi.com

- 1.5mm forward growth from 4 months with 0.5kg
1 year = 4.5 mm
2 years = 9mm
3 years = 13.5 mm
4 years = 18mm
5 years = 22.5 mm
6 years = 27mm

. . .​

- Therefore, if we use facepuller with much more force, and combine it with MSE, we are gonna get twice the more changes !

- 6mm forward growth from 4 months with 2kg (@nelson dowden appliance + MSE + IMDO)
1 year = 18mm
2 years = 36mm

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

Now of course, you will eventually meet the rule of diminishing returns, not to undermine the statement. Since i'm not knowledgeable enough to answer the genetic limit of forward growth, someone else should mention this in the comments (not something important either).

But ANOTHER thing to put into consideration is location of the micro-implant placement during facepulling - a.k.a pulling upwards exclusively. The girl from the previous study pulled downwards, 30 degrees up instead of down should give her at least 3x faster and better results. Pulling upwards was the ONLY direction that resulted in high levels of compression on all of the circummaxillary sutures, which is what generates the bone for forward growth


Look at this paper: https://scinapse.io/papers/1603230182

From this paper this is the typical maxilla displacement resulting from a microimplant assisted palate expander like MSE, Hyrax using a facepuller at a -30 degrees angle:

View attachment 726548View attachment 726549


Look at how insignifiant is the forward displacement and how it displace your maxilla downward.

Now look at the displacement if the micro-implant was placed in a better location with a pulling angle of -15 degrees (Simulation C, picture on the right on the second picture) :

View attachment 726551View attachment 726552

look at how signifiant is the forward displacement, look at how the maxilla rotate ccw.

TL;DR

MSE + MSDO + FACEPULLING
MIGHT BE THE NEW 'HOLLY TRINITY'
OF PSL !



View attachment 726565





Tagging relevant users & brocels

@retard @Sergio-OMS @nelson @goat2x @Kingkellz @SayNoToRotting @Rob Paul'sHeight @Daw
@yorker12 @Slyfex8 @BalkanPig @rightfulcel @Morgothos @Won'tStopNoodling @Gudru
@Dr Shekelberg @reptiles @Goblin @Lorsss @IncelWithNoLuck @TsarTsar444
@NewParasite @tincelw @Mohamad @Acnno @Lev Peshkov
@larsanova69 @Chad1212 @54UD4D3 @Arkantos
@Britishlooksmaxxer @john2
@Lifeisgood72 ​

Tag me next time for posts like this legendary one

 

[Deleted member 5634]

online there is one scientific study analyzing the effect of a maxillary protractor on an adult patient and the results were pretty bad.
I talked about this here

Facepulling

Facepulling is an experimental Looksmaxxing technique based on orthodontic maxillary protaction. The aim of a maxillary protaction is getting a face with better...

incels.wiki

So in your opinion is cope and one should just jaw surgery? Where did you got the facepuller you made it yourself?

 

[Chintuck22]

Tag me next time for posts like this legendary one

I'll probably forget.. i rarely post

 

[Deleted member 5634]

Ill definetely get my kids on this if i ever have one

 

[reptiles]

[QUOT

online there is one scientific study analyzing the effect of a maxillary protractor on an adult patient and the results were pretty bad.
I talked about this here

Facepulling

Facepulling is an experimental Looksmaxxing technique based on orthodontic maxillary protaction. The aim of a maxillary protaction is getting a face with better...

incels.wiki

What happens if you applied a larger force whilst pulling ? shouldn't applying a larger force allow more more bone movement in lesser time

 

[Deleted member 5634]

So in your opinion is cope and one should just jaw surgery? Where did you got the facepuller you made it yourself?

I just read bro and is right

"After 17 months applying a force of 0.5 kilograms for 14 hours a day, the woman obtained a maxillary growth of 1.7 millimiters. This number was enough to correct the malocclusion of the woman, however 1.7 millimiters is not enought to consider Facepulling a satysting looksmaxxing technique, since Bimaxillary surgery can achieve 10+ millimiters of maxillary forward growth in 2 hours. "

The thing that with facepulling youll probably get a better browdrige and orbitals unlike jaw surgery, but it is what it is at this point.

 

[Deleted member 5634]

[QUOT
What happens if you applied a larger force whilst pulling ? shouldn't applying a larger force allow more more bone movement in lesser time

You will probably fuck off your bite, is only surgery at this point

 

[reptiles]

You will probably fuck off your bite, is only surgery at this point

It's the only thing that can fix downwards growth currently i mean surgery can't make your face more upswung it can only bring it forwards and if your jaw is already down wards grown than you will have a projecting down wards grown jaw.

 

[orthochadic]

Hyrax appliance, but orthos can correct your back teeths with braces

Anyway the discrepancy between back in front isn't that bad i guess.
Are you saying Hyrax can expand the intermolar width of the mandible to get the mandible dimension back ?

 

[Deleted member 5634]

It's the only thing that can fix downwards growth currently i mean surgery can't make your face more upswung it can only bring it forwards and if your jaw is already down wards grown than you will have a projecting down wards grown jaw.

You can achieve ccw rotation with jaw surgery

 

[Deleted member 5912]

I just read bro and is right

"After 17 months applying a force of 0.5 kilograms for 14 hours a day, the woman obtained a maxillary growth of 1.7 millimiters. This number was enough to correct the malocclusion of the woman, however 1.7 millimiters is not enought to consider Facepulling a satysting looksmaxxing technique, since Bimaxillary surgery can achieve 10+ millimiters of maxillary forward growth in 2 hours. "

The thing that with facepulling youll probably get a better browdrige and orbitals unlike jaw surgery, but it is what it is at this point.

ah fuck it why not
I dont have much to lose

 

[reptiles]

You can achieve ccw rotation with jaw surgery

True you can rotation is the biggest change in these surgeries but usually for downwards grown souls none of them are getting lefort 2 with it so there entire nasal and upper maxilla region is still down wards grown which looks really awful gives a monkey look.

 

[Deleted member 5634]

Yo @Lorsss did you gain anything from facepulling, you have before after photos? At least one cant cope for a couple of months until getting jaw surgery and 1 mm can make a difference in terms of infraorbitals

 

[Deleted member 5912]

True you can rotation is the biggest change in these surgeries but usually for downwards grown souls none of them are getting lefort 2 with it so there entire nasal and upper maxilla region is still down wards grown which looks really awful gives a monkey look.

wouldn't a full on lefort 3 with ccw be ideal?
too bad we cant get it ttbh

 

[Deleted member 5634]

True you can rotation is the biggest change in these surgeries but usually for downwards grown souls none of them are getting lefort 2 with it so there entire nasal and upper maxilla region is still down wards grown which looks really awful gives a monkey look.

I think it deppends on your starting point tbh, if you have an overbite you can achieve forwar grown face as your maxilla is augmentend but your mandible is retracted.

 

[reptiles]

wouldn't a full on lefort 3 with ccw be ideal?
too bad we cant get it ttbh

No LOL lefort 3 with ccw is giga death tier good luck making it out alive CCW with lefort 2 is ideal it's still giga dangerous

 

[Chintuck22]

No LOL lefort 3 with ccw is giga death tier good luck making it out alive CCW with lefort 2 is ideal it's still giga dangerous

Shut the fuck up, it's lefort 3 or death.. You are pussboy if you're not willing to get LF3 done

 

[orthochadic]

U sure hyrax can widen the intermolar width ? (didn't read about it yet)

 

[reptiles]

Shut the fuck up, it's lefort 3 or death.. You are pussboy if you're not willing to get LF3 done

Cope it's lefort 5 or death

JFL at not ever trying a lefort 5

 

[Mongrelcel]

Good write-up for greycels
I hope some users will undergo all these procedures and report back the info
Didnt @Slayerino do MSE + MSDO?

Also, does anyone have any idea if MSDO can increase bigonial width? MSE alone cant increase it no?

 

[orthochadic]

wouldn't a full on lefort 3 with ccw be ideal?
too bad we cant get it ttbh

Modified oblique lefort 3 can ccw everything excepted the nose dorsum, but nasofrontal angle isn't that important, and it's performed on normal peoples.
Chico and the chico like girl (kaitlin mchugh) both have deep nasofrontal angle and still are Chad and Stacy.
But make sure that the surgeon will trim your nose carthilage down instead of digging into the nasal cavity floor of the maxilla (gonna make a thread later about it).
But what you can be sure about is that the whole maxilla is surgically changeable for non deformed peoples thanks to modified oblique lefort III to exist and the possibillite to trim the lower nose carthilage after the superior repositionning of the ans. (instrad of digging into the maxilla as said earlier dunno why i feel i need to repeat it but still do lol).

The forum is getting more knowledgable and valuable months after months.

 

[Deleted member 5912]

Modified oblique lefort 3 can ccw everything excepted the nose dorsum, but nasofrontal angle isn't that important, and it's performed on normal peoples.
Chico and the chico like girl (kaitlin mchugh) both have deep nasofrontal angle and still are Chad and Stacy.
But make sure that the surgeon will trim your nose carthilage down instead of digging into the nasal cavity floor of the maxilla (gonna make a thread later about it).
But what you can be sure about is that the whole maxilla is surgically changeable for non deformed peoples thanks to modified oblique lefort III to exist and the possibillite to trim the lower nose carthilage after the superior repositionning of the ans. (instrad of digging into the maxilla as said earlier dunno why i feel i need to repeat it but still do lol).

The forum is getting more knowledgable and valuable months after months.

yeah I saw your thread about it
good shit
after that you can do infra orbital implants and it'll be very good

 

[orthochadic]

yeah I saw your thread about it
good shit
after that you can do infra orbital implants and it'll be very good

Why would we get infraorbital implant. It's still the holy lefort III (but modified).
Your infraorbital rims are moving up and forward during the process .
No need to implant on the midface.

 

[Deleted member 5912]

Why would we get infraorbital implant. It's still the holy lefort III (but modified).
Your infraorbital rims are moving up and forward during the process.

would that be enough for orbital support?
mine are kinda bad
if the mlf3 is enough I geuss im good

 

[orthochadic]

would that be enough for orbital support?
mine are kinda bad
if the mlf3 is enough I geuss im good

good question tbh. But the good point is that even if you're fucked, it will leave your eue area with a cute aegyo sal (thanks to the superior repositionning).
I'm sure it's possible to tell the surgeon that you want a perfect undereye support.
Even if your nose becomes almost non existent, you can still implant on the dorsum the same way this girl did.
(she got only the modified lefort 3. But i guess it's possible with the oblique one as well).
If crouzon syndrome peoples can end up with deep into the maxilla set eyes, i'm sure you can as well.

 

[clavicel]

Where are you going to find an ortho who is willing to do all of this

 

[Deleted member 5634]

good question tbh. But the good point is that even if you're fucked, it will leave your eue area with a cute aegyo sal (thanks to the superior repositionning).
I'm sure it's possible to tell the surgeon that you want a perfect undereye support.
Even if your nose becomes almost non existent, you can still implant on the dorsum the same way this girl did.
(she got only the modified lefort 3. But i guess it's possible with the oblique one as well).
If crouzon syndrome peoples can end up with deep into the maxilla set eyes, i'm sure you can as well.

Do you think ill benefit from this or just a lefort 1 will suffice? I can pm you my ceph

 

[orthochadic]

Do you think ill benefit from this or just a lefort 1 will suffice? I can pm you my ceph

Okay show me. But also the scan to see where your eye is.

 

[Deusmaximus]

Msdo is such a unknown procedure. Almost no results on the whole internet. We also have not one single case of psl increase with mse.
I consulted a few orthos, and they called me totally crazy for wanting mse+msdo just for aesthetic improvement.
Msdo has a huge infection risk btw. Msdo+mse would need 1-1.5 years of braces after. That would be 1 year without having sex or having any chances with girls. Considering the short time of prime years, its a big investment with a questionable outcome.

Btw this girl got msdo:

 

[Deleted member 1973]

This is MSE:

View attachment 726276

View attachment 726279

Expands the width of maxilla, mouth, nasal base, and zygomatics expansion. You would need corticopuncture done so you can expand with MSDO at the same rate.

Spoiler: MSE Results

MSE Results (Cheekbones width, maxilla).

10mm of MSE equals =

8.4 mm - cheekbones width (0.84mm gain for every milimeter of MSE expansion)

1.2 mm - Maxilla forward growth (upper and lower)

This is MSDO:

View attachment 726262

MSDO expands the lower jaw (particularly chin). The lower jaw can follow only so much the forced expansion the maxilla is subjected to from the MSE. This, in combination with the MSE can widen the chin, expand the palate, increase the lateral protrusion of the zygos



MSDO expands this much. This is from MSDO only:

View attachment 726234

It helped his midface, fwhr, and NCT a bit (wtf).


Now for the sake of thread, let's imagine that you were about to expand 20mm (extreme case), usually your safe bet is to expand 5-10mm, but when MSE is done simultaneously with MSDO, there wouldn't be much to rish about, other than bite correction.

View attachment 726259

You should done MSDO together with MSE, because if you're spliting the bone and expanding it, then you're literally changing the angulation of your tempomandibular joint. You're probably gonna need a little orthodontic movement of the molars to get them to match perfectly if you're doing MSE with MSDO, because MSDO expands the front teeth more than the back teeths.


⚠ The key is to do MSE and MSDO at the exact same time with the exact same amount of expansion, because than not only the chin would be expanded outward, also the rest of the mandible and thus the condiles can move in their natural place with the expansion of the maxilla...

View attachment 726269View attachment 726270

⚠ You'll also need braces to avoid diastemas simultaneously, but that's optional, consult with your orthodontist about when should you install braces.



FACEPULLING

- We already know what facepulling does. You can combine MSE + MSDO with facepuller if you want to *attempt* to protract your maxilla. Maxillary protraction is extremely slow in adults and 17 months are required to get just 1.7 millimiters of forward growth, while wearing it 14 hours a day (@nelson facepuller according to @Lorsss ). There are very few studies on adult facepulling yet all the ones on it says it’s legit.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

MATHEMATICS

So 1.7 millimiters of forward growth, while wearing it 14 hours a day (NON-MSE)
And for every extra hour you want to spend into facepulling, add 0.12mm into your result, we got that number by deviding 1.7 (Results) by 14 (Number of hours).


So if i facepulled for 20 hours per day, it'll be:

1.7 + (0.12 × 6) = 2.42mm (in 17 months)

CONTEST​

1.7 - Result you get from facepulling for 14h

0.12 - Milimeters change in one hour apart

6 - Hours remaining to reach 20h (If i multiplied by 2, i would get 16h, and you can't multiply more than 10).

⚠ Now remember that i previously mentioned the MSE changes in forward growth (10mm of expansion equals 1.2mm of FORWARD GROWTH !!), so while you're wearing MSE, you can except the extra forward growth


⚠ I don't know how many turns per day are done with MSE + MSDO, so i would appreciate if someone make that calculation for me (calculate how many forward growth are created daily through the period of time while you're having MSE attached - Ideally until you expand 10-20mm)






ANOTHER MEASUREMENT


According to the study, a girl have gained 1.5mm using bone anchored facepuller for 4 months. She was 19 years old, and she facepulled for 18-20 hours per day.

Expansion/Facemask Treatment of an Adult Class III Malocclusion

The orthodontic treatment of class III malocclusion with a maxillary deficiency is often treated with maxillary protraction with or without expansion. Skeletal and dental changes have been documented which have combined for the protraction of the maxilla and the correction of the class III...

www.hindawi.com

- 1.5mm forward growth from 4 months with 0.5kg
1 year = 4.5 mm
2 years = 9mm
3 years = 13.5 mm
4 years = 18mm
5 years = 22.5 mm
6 years = 27mm

. . .​

- Therefore, if we use facepuller with much more force, and combine it with MSE, we are gonna get twice the more changes !

- 6mm forward growth from 4 months with 2kg (@nelson dowden appliance + MSE + IMDO)
1 year = 18mm
2 years = 36mm

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

Now of course, you will eventually meet the rule of diminishing returns, not to undermine the statement. Since i'm not knowledgeable enough to answer the genetic limit of forward growth, someone else should mention this in the comments (not something important either).

But ANOTHER thing to put into consideration is location of the micro-implant placement during facepulling - a.k.a pulling upwards exclusively. The girl from the previous study pulled downwards, 30 degrees up instead of down should give her at least 3x faster and better results. Pulling upwards was the ONLY direction that resulted in high levels of compression on all of the circummaxillary sutures, which is what generates the bone for forward growth


Look at this paper: https://scinapse.io/papers/1603230182

From this paper this is the typical maxilla displacement resulting from a microimplant assisted palate expander like MSE, Hyrax using a facepuller at a -30 degrees angle:

View attachment 726548View attachment 726549


Look at how insignifiant is the forward displacement and how it displace your maxilla downward.

Now look at the displacement if the micro-implant was placed in a better location with a pulling angle of -15 degrees (Simulation C, picture on the right on the second picture) :

View attachment 726551View attachment 726552

look at how signifiant is the forward displacement, look at how the maxilla rotate ccw.

TL;DR

MSE + MSDO + FACEPULLING
MIGHT BE THE NEW 'HOLLY TRINITY'
OF PSL !



View attachment 726565





Tagging relevant users & brocels

@retard @Sergio-OMS @nelson @goat2x @Kingkellz @SayNoToRotting @Rob Paul'sHeight @Daw
@yorker12 @Slyfex8 @BalkanPig @rightfulcel @Morgothos @Won'tStopNoodling @Gudru
@Dr Shekelberg @reptiles @Goblin @Lorsss @IncelWithNoLuck @TsarTsar444
@NewParasite @tincelw @Mohamad @Acnno @Lev Peshkov
@larsanova69 @Chad1212 @54UD4D3 @Arkantos
@Britishlooksmaxxer @john2
@Lifeisgood72 ​

 

[Deleted member 5385]

It's the only thing that can fix downwards growth currently i mean surgery can't make your face more upswung it can only bring it forwards and if your jaw is already down wards grown than you will have a projecting down wards grown jaw.

This
If in future someone will be able to fix downward growth only with some advanced appliance cause if I imagine you trik your orbital bones- to get ccw Lefort 3 not to say that forehead also moved downward. It must be complex Device and surgery is not complex

 

[reptiles]

This
If in future someone will be able to fix downward growth only with some advanced appliance cause if I imagine you trik your orbital bones- to get ccw Lefort 3 not to say that forehead also moved downward. It must be complex Device and surgery is not complex

From the pics youve seen im just recessed and not down wards grown right?

 

[Deleted member 5634]

I consulted a few orthos, and they called me totally crazy for wanting mse+msdo just for aesthetic improvement.

The same happened to me, what are you looking to achieve better checkbones, wider mouth?

 

[Deleted member 5385]

From the pics youve seen im just recessed and not down wards grown right?

Yes

 

[reptiles]

Yes

Oh thank fuck downwards groeth is a death sentance currently

 

[Swolepenisman]

Imagine getting bimax with ccw and then getting mse and msdo

 

[Swolepenisman]

Oh thank fuck downwards groeth is a death sentance currently

Ccw? For ppl who aren't giga downtgrown

 

[reptiles]

Ccw? For ppl who aren't giga downtgrown

Yeah rotation advancement and implantation thats the scheme im going through