Possible cure for hair loss - why hormones do not matter

[jackieboy21]

I mentioned it already but I decided to make a thread about this. I hope you guys appreciate what I‘m about to share with you. I‘m tired of garbage threads.

Hair loss, androgenetic alopecia or male pattern baldness, is not caused by DHT. DHT triggers it but only under a certain circumstance. This circumstance being the loss of androgen receptor gene methylation in hair follicles (study).

What is AR gene methylation?
-> DNA methylation is a biological process of adding a methyl group to DNA.
In this case, adding a methyl group to the CpG island in the promoter region of the androgen receptor gene in hair follicles will reduce its expression. Think of it as an on/off switch and methylation turns gene expression off.

A common characteristic of MPB (male pattern baldness) is that it affects the top of the head (vertex) much more than the back of the head (occiput). This is because vertex hair follicles have much lower levels of methylation than occipital hair follicles and thus are a lot more sensitive to DHT. Occipital hair follicles have twice the amount of methylation, on average. Hence, the occiput is not affected as much from MPB.

If hormones really were to blame (they are not), you‘d see androgenetic alopecia begin in puberty and improve with the decline of men‘s T levels as they age and gain weight. But this isn‘t the case. It usually begins in one‘s mid- to late twenties or later in life and does not resolve on its own.
The real cause of AGA is a gradual decline in DNA methylation, which is also heavily involved in aging and the onset of diseases and cancer in general. So, instead of removing the signal (DHT) from the overactive androgen receptors, we should normalize their expression. If it works in puberty - lots of androgens but healthy levels of methylation = no hair loss - it‘ll work at any age. DHT does not matter. You need it for well-being. No more jewtasteride.

The solution?
-> Increase overall methylation in your body. The methylation cycle requires vitamin B2 (riboflavin), B6 (pyridoxine), B9 (folate) and B12 (cobalamin), methionine and choline. Deficiencies in dietary methyl donors can result in global hypomethylation and accelerate hair loss or the onset thereof.
Make sure to get plenty of all of the above every single day. If you already suffer from hair loss, take supplements. For B6, get pyridoxal-5-phosphate, for B9 L-5-methyltetrahydrofolate and for B12 methylcobalamin.
Make sure to eat enough protein as a source for methionine and to consume enough choline and minerals. Good mineral and trace element sources are unprocessed sugar cane syrup, fruits such as bananas and dates, leafy greens and whole grains.
You can add trimethylglycine (betaine) and S-Adenosylmethionine (SAMe) for a 100% guaranteed increase in methylation. Just make sure not to overdo the SAM, since hypermethylation isn’t your goal either.

Other things apart from methylation support you should be taking are vitamin C (read my guide) and D with its cofactors (A, K2, magnesium).


Tl;dr: If you want to keep your hair, increase methylation.
How? Take:

• riboflavin
• vitamin B6 as P-5-P
• vitamin B9 as L-5-MTHF
• vitamin B12 as methylcobalamin
• vitamin C
• vitamin A, D, K2 + magnesium
(• SAMe)
(• TMG (betaine))
• diet rich in (trace) minerals and with plenty of protein and choline.

Would it be safe to add this onto my protocol of , ru58841, minoxidil and oral castor oil?

 

[ReverseNorwoodPill]

I will probably buy this copestack tomorrow tbh
@Seth Walsh @Bewusst discuss please I love you guys

 

[Deleted member 5292]

Would it be safe to add this onto my protocol of , ru58841, minoxidil and oral castor oil?

You use ru, a chemical known for fucking your heart, and worry about b vitamins and sam e?

 

[Peroxide]

Suprisely it works I added b complex vitamins and pottasium to my regular stack and got a nice regrowthon the crown. You can also drink some horsetail and neetle tee it makes hair thciker

 

[ReverseNorwoodPill]

brb methylationcelling

 

[PURE ARYAN GENETICS]

Suprisely it works I added b complex vitamins and pottasium to my regular stack and got a nice regrowthon the crown. You can also drink some horsetail and neetle tee it makes hair thciker

no cope?

 

[Deleted member 5292]

Dermapen once a week. Msm, glucosamine, b complex, zinc, chondroitin, colagen, iodine after dermapen, vitamin c, vitamin e, l-carnitine, astaxantin, omega complex, probiotics, vitamin k, vitamin d.

I added proteolytic enzimes last week. Digestions are much better and inflammation is less severe.

 

[Deleted member 9511]

This guys should check the hair gains protocol posted on the misc at the bodybuilding forum.
The op went frol nw3 to nw0. 10 years ago i was losing 300 to 400 hairs per day. With a protocol similar to yours and dermapem i have this hair now:

Are you talking about this thread?

Misc.

The most popular bodybuilding message boards!

forum.bodybuilding.com

they have like one guy in the entire 190 page thread who grew anything the rest is fin jockeys. Also an after photo doesn't really make any point unless its paired with a before photo brother.

 

[Deleted member 9511]

the methylation has to be carried out by an enzyme though (DNMT family). what happens if there is also a reduced expression of those genes in balding areas, you can throw all the cosubstrates and nothing will happen.

A for effort nevertheless, well-thought threads are a rarity

This gentleman is probably right unfortunately. I guess you gotta choose between being a psuedo-hermaphrodite and having your neurosteroids/dick function.

 

[Deleted member 5292]

Are you talking about this thread?

Misc.

The most popular bodybuilding message boards!

forum.bodybuilding.com

they have like one guy in the entire 190 page thread who grew anything the rest is fin jockeys. Also an after photo doesn't really make any point unless its paired with a before photo brother.

I do that and it works

 

[LooksJourney]

What would you recommend for a teenager (19) with aggressive recession?

 

[Peroxide]

no cope?

Its not some miracle effect but gives visible changes

 

[ReverseNorwoodPill]

This gentleman is probably right unfortunately. I guess you gotta choose between being a psuedo-hermaphrodite and having your neurosteroids/dick function.

can you elab? i dont understand this shit

 

[Bewusst]

What would you recommend for a teenager (19) with aggressive recession?

The same as for anyone with androgenetic alopecia. Try to bring methylation back to healthy levels and fix any nutritional deficiencies you might have.

 

[Deleted member 9511]

can you elab? i dont understand this shit

Was saying that mayorga is probably right that the genes are down regulated in those areas and that throwing more B6 etc. at it isn't going to help much; the only effective treatments will mess with your masculinity/neurosteroids until the WnT pathway medicines are released

 

[Deleted member 9511]

Its not some miracle effect but gives visible changes

dude you said you got regrowth from B vitamins? It has been like 3 or 4 days since OP made his post. Unless you have been taking them for way longer HIGHLY suspicious of the benefits you got from it.

 

[Peroxide]

dude you said you got regrowth from B vitamins? It has been like 3 or 4 days since OP made his post. Unless you have been taking them for way longer HIGHLY suspicious of the benefits you got from it.

Im running it for 3 months or smth, im also taking iron and put lot of natural lotion from fenugreek on scalp. It is not something that will stop norwooding but hair will look sligthly better and its really cheap

 

[Deleted member 9511]

Im running it for 3 months or smth, im also taking iron and put lot of natural lotion from fenugreek on scalp. It is not something that will stop norwooding but hair will look sligthly better and its really cheap

Gotcha. I appreciate you sharing your progress. Careful with the iron btw that's generally a rare deficiency for males unless you donate a lot of blood. Too much is very hair toxic!

 

[Deleted member 9511]

The same as for anyone with androgenetic alopecia. Try to bring methylation back to healthy levels and fix any nutritional deficiencies you might have.

Do you have any studies showing how methylation in balding areas can be raised via supps? Don't you think something that's been around as long as B vitamins would have been figured out ages ago? @Mayorga is almost definitely right about this.

 

[Bewusst]

Do you have any studies showing how methylation in balding areas can be raised via supps? Don't you think something that's been around as long as B vitamins would have been figured out ages ago? @Mayorga is almost definitely right about this.

No, I don’t. But AGA definitely is an acquired condition, since nobody is born with it. Hence it isn’t unrealistic to imagine that local hypomethylation of the AR gene in hair follicles is acquired too, as AGA and methylation go hand in hand, as shown in the study I linked in my OP.

 

[Deleted member 9511]

No, I don’t. But AGA definitely is an acquired condition, since nobody is born with it. Hence it isn’t unrealistic to imagine that local hypomethylation of the AR gene in hair follicles is acquired too, as AGA and methylation go hand in hand, as shown in the study I linked in my OP.

Thought provoking point. Ironically almost all babies are born with the balding pattern so in a way everyone is born with it. Honestly in the end they might be the key to cracking MPB since babies grow hair all the way from a receding pattern.

I'm not so sure its an entirely 'acquired' condition as patterns run in families, and it expresses after puberty like many other features - though I do see your reasoning. Frankly its not really relevant if so long as these methyl donors can actually upregulate the methylation in the areas we need them to.

 

[Bewusst]

Thought provoking point. Ironically almost all babies are born with the balding pattern so in a way everyone is born with it. Honestly in the end they might be the key to cracking MPB since babies grow hair all the way from a receding pattern.

I'm not so sure its an entirely 'acquired' condition as patterns run in families, and it expresses after puberty like many other features - though I do see your reasoning. Frankly its not really relevant if so long as these methyl donors can actually upregulate the methylation in the areas we need them to.

Exactly. And it’s DNA methylation which controls gene expression. If there’s a lack of methylation to suppress the expression of these balding genes, AGA develops as a result.

 

[Deleted member 7076]

fixing the root problem is a million times better than the symptoms
is there any topical product that can increase methylation or is it all systematic pills?

 

[Deleted member 9511]

Saw this study posted by a user on another forum - seemed relevant

OCT4 maintains self-renewal and reverses senescence in human hair follicle mesenchymal stem cells through the downregulation of p21 by DNA methyltransferases - Stem Cell Research & Therapy

Background Self-renewal is dependent on an intrinsic gene regulatory network centered on OCT4 and on an atypical cell cycle G1/S transition, which is also regulated by OCT4. p21, a gene negatively associated with self-renewal and a senescence marker, is a member of the universal cyclin-dependent...

stemcellres.biomedcentral.com

 

[RecessedPrettyboy]

Any topical products that increase methylation? Is that even possible?

 

[Bewusst]

is there any topical product that can increase methylation or is it all systematic pills?

You might try applying DMSO to your (clean) scalp but the supplement protocol should still be the base of any holistic AGA treatment imo, since the methylation cycle requires all of these cofactors.

 

[Deleted member 773]

@Lifeisgood72

He's right

 

[Deleted member 773]

Any topical products that increase methylation? Is that even possible?

What if I told you finasteride and minoxidil affect androgen receptor methylation

 

[RecessedPrettyboy]

What if I told you finasteride and minoxidil affect androgen receptor methylation

And what does it do? Increase methylation right?

 

[Deleted member 7076]

accutane is a folate antagonist, which messes with the methylation process. Do you think that this is why accutane users experience hair loss while on it?

 

[Deleted member 7076]

“Repairing the digestive system and optimizing the flora should be one of the first steps in correcting methylation deficiency”
i think good gut health is very important if you want to optimize the stack's absorption

 

[Deleted member 9511]

What if I told you finasteride and minoxidil affect androgen receptor methylation

lol true but the point of all this is an alternative bro- if fin + min were desirable there wouldn't be a conversation

 

[Jecht]

Cope thread.
You are just creating a narative of: Suplements to Methilation correlation, than, Methilation to Androgenic Alopecia correlation
You need a study that shows: Suplements to Androgenic Alopecia correlation

 

[eduardkoopman]

This guys should check the hair gains protocol posted on the misc at the bodybuilding forum.
The op went frol nw3 to nw0. 10 years ago i was losing 300 to 400 hairs per day. With a protocol similar to yours and dermapem i have this hair now:

Mirin the hairline.
Unbelievable, to go from NW3 to nw0 with "just" supplements.
I'm on finasteride and minoxidill, to fight balding. I need my hair

 

[Deleted member 5292]

Mirin the hairline.
Unbelievable, to go from NW3 to nw0 with "just" supplements.
I'm on finasteride and minoxidill, to fight balding. I need my hair

Dermapen and taurine is key. You could also add winlevi if you want.

 

[RAITEIII]

I will probably buy this copestack tomorrow tbh
@Seth Walsh @Bewusst discuss please I love you guys

Fag

 

[ASR]

You might try applying DMSO to your (clean) scalp but the supplement protocol should still be the base of any holistic AGA treatment imo, since the methylation cycle requires all of these cofactors.

What are the dosages for each though?

I mentioned it already but I decided to make a thread about this. I hope you guys appreciate what I‘m about to share with you. I‘m tired of garbage threads.

Hair loss, androgenetic alopecia or male pattern baldness, is not caused by DHT. DHT triggers it but only under a certain circumstance. This circumstance being the loss of androgen receptor gene methylation in hair follicles (study).

What is AR gene methylation?
-> DNA methylation is a biological process of adding a methyl group to DNA.
In this case, adding a methyl group to the CpG island in the promoter region of the androgen receptor gene in hair follicles will reduce its expression. Think of it as an on/off switch and methylation turns gene expression off.

A common characteristic of MPB (male pattern baldness) is that it affects the top of the head (vertex) much more than the back of the head (occiput). This is because vertex hair follicles have much lower levels of methylation than occipital hair follicles and thus are a lot more sensitive to DHT. Occipital hair follicles have twice the amount of methylation, on average. Hence, the occiput is not affected as much from MPB.

If hormones really were to blame (they are not), you‘d see androgenetic alopecia begin in puberty and improve with the decline of men‘s T levels as they age and gain weight. But this isn‘t the case. It usually begins in one‘s mid- to late twenties or later in life and does not resolve on its own.
The real cause of AGA is a gradual decline in DNA methylation, which is also heavily involved in aging and the onset of diseases and cancer in general. So, instead of removing the signal (DHT) from the overactive androgen receptors, we should normalize their expression. If it works in puberty - lots of androgens but healthy levels of methylation = no hair loss - it‘ll work at any age. DHT does not matter. You need it for well-being. No more jewtasteride.

The solution?
-> Increase overall methylation in your body. The methylation cycle requires vitamin B2 (riboflavin), B6 (pyridoxine), B9 (folate) and B12 (cobalamin), methionine and choline. Deficiencies in dietary methyl donors can result in global hypomethylation and accelerate hair loss or the onset thereof.
Make sure to get plenty of all of the above every single day. If you already suffer from hair loss, take supplements. For B6, get pyridoxal-5-phosphate, for B9 L-5-methyltetrahydrofolate and for B12 methylcobalamin.
Make sure to eat enough protein as a source for methionine and to consume enough choline and minerals. Good mineral and trace element sources are unprocessed sugar cane syrup, fruits such as bananas and dates, leafy greens and whole grains.
You can add trimethylglycine (betaine) and S-Adenosylmethionine (SAMe) for a 100% guaranteed increase in methylation. Just make sure not to overdo the SAM, since hypermethylation isn’t your goal either.

Other things apart from methylation support you should be taking are vitamin C (read my guide) and D with its cofactors (A, K2, magnesium).


Tl;dr: If you want to keep your hair, increase methylation.
How? Take:

• riboflavin
• vitamin B6 as P-5-P
• vitamin B9 as L-5-MTHF
• vitamin B12 as methylcobalamin
• vitamin C
• vitamin A, D, K2 + magnesium
(• SAMe)
(• TMG (betaine))
• diet rich in (trace) minerals and with plenty of protein and choline.

 

[Bewusst]

What are the dosages for each though?

https://looksmax.org/threads/bewussts-hair-loss-protocol-dosages-detailed-instructions.182999/

 

[Polka]

 

[nonserviam]

can a multivitamin supplement whch includes all sorts of vitamin B shit can be enough ? also is there any side effects of sam-e ? bump

 

[Bewusst]

can a multivitamin supplement whch includes all sorts of vitamin B shit can be enough ? also is there any side effects of sam-e ? bump

If you find one with the proper dosages and in the right form (as in my other thread) without niacin(amide), sure. It’ll likely be cheaper to buy them separately tho

Apart from digestive issues, there are no reported side effects of SAMe

 

[nonserviam]

If you find one with the proper dosages and in the right form (as in my other thread) without niacin(amide), sure. It’ll likely be cheaper to buy them separately tho

Apart from digestive issues, there are no reported side effects of SAMe

thanks, mine includes niacin with low doses of other vitamin b's so i guess it won't do shit.
i heard sam-e redistributes mercury or shit like that, anything about it ?

 

[Deleted member 9511]

Nice thread. Unfortunately it's not an issue of a loss of DNA methylation. In the WNT pathway there's proteases that breakdown and pretty much destroy Beta Catenin before it can reach the TCF/LEF factors which guide it to the target genes. So the proteases are the problem. If there was no proteasomal degredation of B Catenin then that specific action of TCF+B Catenin binding should (and does) carry out normally.

Afaik the lack of activity at the Frizzled and LRP receptors in the Wnt pathway causes the proteases to destroy the B Catenin rather than letting the transciption factors help it target the movo1 and KRT81 genes.

Thanks for the clarification here. I am curious to know what you think the most intelligent route for a norwooder to take would be.
The mainstream treatments aren't exactly great, especially long term in regards to sexual health, aging and quality of life.

Can I PM you?

 

[yolo12345]

Nice thread. Unfortunately it's not an issue of a loss of DNA methylation. In the WNT pathway there's proteases that breakdown and pretty much destroy Beta Catenin before it can reach the TCF/LEF factors which guide it to the target genes. So the proteases are the problem. If there was no proteasomal degredation of B Catenin then that specific action of TCF+B Catenin binding should (and does) carry out normally.

Afaik the lack of activity at the Frizzled and LRP receptors in the Wnt pathway causes the proteases to destroy the B Catenin rather than letting the transciption factors help it target the movo1 and KRT81 genes.

Can I message you?

 

[yolo12345]

This guys should check the hair gains protocol posted on the misc at the bodybuilding forum.
The op went frol nw3 to nw0. 10 years ago i was losing 300 to 400 hairs per day. With a protocol similar to yours and dermapem i have this hair now:

What thread?

 

[Deleted member 5292]

What thread?

Misc.

The most popular bodybuilding message boards!

forum.bodybuilding.com

 

[Deleted member 10536]

Got everything besides SAMe and TMG. Guess will report back in a month or so. Have longer hair, so it should be noticeable in the showers, whether there's less hair loss overall. My hairline hasn't really changed for the last 10 years or so, since around 16 tbh, but lately been seeing more shorter hair falling out, dunno if that's a sign for worry.
Actually have received compliments for the hair, which is the only compliments I ever received in my life, so very interested to see whether there'll be any change at all. Probably anecdotal experience results.

 

[joeveniro]

I mentioned it already but I decided to make a thread about this. I hope you guys appreciate what I‘m about to share with you. I‘m tired of garbage threads.

Hair loss, androgenetic alopecia or male pattern baldness, is not caused by DHT. DHT triggers it but only under a certain circumstance. This circumstance being the loss of androgen receptor gene methylation in hair follicles (study).

What is AR gene methylation?
-> DNA methylation is a biological process of adding a methyl group to DNA.
In this case, adding a methyl group to the CpG island in the promoter region of the androgen receptor gene in hair follicles will reduce its expression. Think of it as an on/off switch and methylation turns gene expression off.

A common characteristic of MPB (male pattern baldness) is that it affects the top of the head (vertex) much more than the back of the head (occiput). This is because vertex hair follicles have much lower levels of methylation than occipital hair follicles and thus are a lot more sensitive to DHT. Occipital hair follicles have twice the amount of methylation, on average. Hence, the occiput is not affected as much from MPB.

If hormones really were to blame (they are not), you‘d see androgenetic alopecia begin in puberty and improve with the decline of men‘s T levels as they age and gain weight. But this isn‘t the case. It usually begins in one‘s mid- to late twenties or later in life and does not resolve on its own.
The real cause of AGA is a gradual decline in DNA methylation, which is also heavily involved in aging and the onset of diseases and cancer in general. So, instead of removing the signal (DHT) from the overactive androgen receptors, we should normalize their expression. If it works in puberty - lots of androgens but healthy levels of methylation = no hair loss - it‘ll work at any age. DHT does not matter. You need it for well-being. No more jewtasteride.

The solution?
-> Increase overall methylation in your body. The methylation cycle requires vitamin B2 (riboflavin), B6 (pyridoxine), B9 (folate) and B12 (cobalamin), methionine and choline. Deficiencies in dietary methyl donors can result in global hypomethylation and accelerate hair loss or the onset thereof.
Make sure to get plenty of all of the above every single day. If you already suffer from hair loss, take supplements. For B6, get pyridoxal-5-phosphate, for B9 L-5-methyltetrahydrofolate and for B12 methylcobalamin.
Make sure to eat enough protein as a source for methionine and to consume enough choline and minerals. Good mineral and trace element sources are unprocessed sugar cane syrup, fruits such as bananas and dates, leafy greens and whole grains.
You can add trimethylglycine (betaine) and S-Adenosylmethionine (SAMe) for a 100% guaranteed increase in methylation. Just make sure not to overdo the SAM, since hypermethylation isn’t your goal either.

Other things apart from methylation support you should be taking are vitamin C (read my guide) and D with its cofactors (A, K2, magnesium).


Tl;dr: If you want to keep your hair, increase methylation.
How? Take:

• riboflavin
• vitamin B6 as P-5-P
• vitamin B9 as L-5-MTHF
• vitamin B12 as methylcobalamin
• vitamin C
• vitamin A, D, K2 + magnesium
(• SAMe)
(• TMG (betaine))
• diet rich in (trace) minerals and with plenty of protein and choline.

saving it for later, fuck jewnasteride got me sides

 

[Eduardo DOV]

No. I’d rather take a bunch of B vitamins and methyl donors than nuke my DHT levels and boost my estradiol. Many of them can be taken together and are quite cheap to source. All of them all essential for methylation (except the ones in brackets, since your body can synthesize them).

isnt there a ratio between these b vitamins? how much ?
i know b12 u can take a shit ton. what about b6 and b9 ?

 

[Deleted member 10536]

So it has been 25 days.
I figured I'll be collecting hair in the shower on a tile and it'd possibly represent some kind of progress. It's not an accurate way at all, to measure something as this, but it's easy and I try to collect every single hair. I try to make the showers around the same length and in general, everything do the same(shampoo, conditioner, way I wash, etc). But I've forgot to take pics a few times... These are results in a chronological order

I'll be continuing.
Haven't really felt anything, hairline *seems* to be the same. I do needle it a bit, when I don't forget about it.