What the hell is Pagnoni doing?

[lurking truecel]

this is a thread on @KingFrost bimax and infra, i hope you are doing okey and that everything i write here is just bad speculations. Also i have no real hate against pag but ehat the helly is going on?

First of all the dude has lip incompetence 2,5 months post op. Which is a long fucking time after surgery.

And the dude has a anterior openbite that will take 1,5 year to close with braces like come on man

Pag charges 30k euro for bimax but cant even put bsso plates in ???? Are we fucking serious, ahh lets put 5 screws inside instead and pray to jesus. Thats ridicoulus, prob why the segment cw rotated and created the openbite.

Like it looks like some random polish builder has been there and forgot plates so hell yea lets go with a dozen screws instead of putting plates in. And obv if you put all scews in at the back it wont hold as good as if you put it with a plate both posteriorly and anteriorly like a normal bsso plate.(basics physics)

Also sure the final execution will allways differ some from the plan but its obv in this case the whole bimax was more cw and maxilla was even more downgrafted then planned. Making the molar teeth lower meaning the bsso segment goes lower and basically whole face gets downgrafted more, meaning lip incomptence becomes an issue just the same reason as why a horse faced fellow get lip incomptemce when the face grows downwards.



The pic below shows in blue the diff between plan and execution, its obv more downgrafted and cw rotated then expected. Also the 5 screws of hope and dreams makes it worse

30k for forgetting bsso plates, like damn man common

 

[dhusc]

this is a thread on @KingFrost bimax and infra, i hope you are doing okey and that everything i write here is just bad speculations. Also i have no real hate against pag but ehat the helly is going on?

First of all the dude has lip incompetence 2,5 months post op. Which is a long fucking time after surgery.


View attachment 5404491

And the dude has a anterior openbite that will take 1,5 year to close with braces like come on man

Pag charges 30k euro for bimsx but cant even out bsso plates in ???? Are we fucning serious, ahh lets out 5 screws inside instead and pray to jesus. Thats ridicoulus, prob why the segment cw rotated and created the openbite.


View attachment 5404496

Like it looks like some random polish builder has been there and forgot plates so hell yea lets go with a dozen screws instead of putting plates in. And obv if you out all scews in at the back it wont hold as good if you put it with a plate both posteriorly and anteriorly like a normal bsso plate.

Also the final execution will allways differ some from the plan but its obv in this case the whole bimax was more cw and maxilla was even more downgrafted then planned. Making the molar teeth lower meaning the bsso segment goes lower and basicqlly whole face gets downgrafted more meaning lip incomptence becomes an issue just as the same reason ehy a horse faced fellow get lip incomptemce when the face grows downwards.

The pic below shows in blue the diff between plan and execution, its obv more downgrafted then expected. Also the 5 screws of hope and dreams makes it worse

View attachment 5404547

30k for forgetting bsso plates, like damn man common

hes a fucking scam artist

 

[Rick_bozo]

 

[lurking truecel]

hes a fucking scam artist

why have a bsso plate when you have 12 screws

 

[KingFrost]

Damn....

I do have misgivings about how successful the surgery went but I simply was not educated enough for it. Hopefully the recovery (esp the lip incompetence) can resolve itself but I have some feeling it probably won't (at least not all the way). And yeah the long braces time sucks. I figured it would be like 6 months or something like that

 

[Vir]

this is a thread on @KingFrost bimax and infra, i hope you are doing okey and that everything i write here is just bad speculations. Also i have no real hate against pag but ehat the helly is going on?

First of all the dude has lip incompetence 2,5 months post op. Which is a long fucking time after surgery.


View attachment 5404491

And the dude has a anterior openbite that will take 1,5 year to close with braces like come on man

Pag charges 30k euro for bimax but cant even put bsso plates in ???? Are we fucking serious, ahh lets put 5 screws inside instead and pray to jesus. Thats ridicoulus, prob why the segment cw rotated and created the openbite.


View attachment 5404496

Like it looks like some random polish builder has been there and forgot plates so hell yea lets go with a dozen screws instead of putting plates in. And obv if you put all scews in at the back it wont hold as good as if you put it with a plate both posteriorly and anteriorly like a normal bsso plate.(basics physics)

View attachment 5404592

Also sure the final execution will allways differ some from the plan but its obv in this case the whole bimax was more cw and maxilla was even more downgrafted then planned. Making the molar teeth lower meaning the bsso segment goes lower and basically whole face gets downgrafted more, meaning lip incomptence becomes an issue just the same reason as why a horse faced fellow get lip incomptemce when the face grows downwards.



The pic below shows in blue the diff between plan and execution, its obv more downgrafted and cw rotated then expected. Also the 5 screws of hope and dreams makes it worse

View attachment 5404547

30k for forgetting bsso plates, like damn man common

Yeah he fell off. Also answer my dm

 

[kingofkings]

It's fucking scary

Btw @KingFrost the community appreciates you sharing your results

 

[tyler1234]

Who actually gassed him up? I’ve never seen a good result from him

 

[lurking truecel]

Damn....

I do have misgivings about how successful the surgery went but I simply was not educated enough for it. Hopefully the recovery (esp the lip incompetence) can resolve itself but I have some feeling it probably won't (at least not all the way). And yeah the long braces time sucks. I figured it would be like 6 months or something like that

IF i were you i would go extremly slow on the food and dont go with the pag recommendations of eating to early. Go on all types of food regiments to get nutrtion for bone growth and keep some weak elastics in to hold the bite. Just so you dont get any none union issues or relapses. What you do kinda matters here. Then i would do a consult with a new surgeon at 6 months post op to see how they react to the scans and if the lips hasnt resolved by then. But for now its just important that you recover fully and dont make any stupid orthodontic shit that makes things worse. I guess you need to move the molar teeth on the upper jaw up some so the bite goes together better i guess thats what the tads are for.

 

[tweaqoRevived]

Forgetting a BSSO plate is something I have never seen before.

Unlikely he actually forgot let’s be honest, he is probably trying something new, for some reason. He’s basically using his patients as lab rats

 

[lurking truecel]

Damn....

I do have misgivings about how successful the surgery went but I simply was not educated enough for it. Hopefully the recovery (esp the lip incompetence) can resolve itself but I have some feeling it probably won't (at least not all the way). And yeah the long braces time sucks. I figured it would be like 6 months or something like that

Also things can resolve, i mean its for sure bigger chance the lips will be relaxed and closed when the teeth are fixed etc. But its good you dont fall for some gaslightning and is tracking the progress and at 6 months doing a consult with some good jaw surgeon for second opionion and maybe a good ortho if you have a local kinda shitty one right now. Because the last thing you want is doing some ortho treatment that comes out useless. Just keep your head from now and do everything in your control to make it as good as possible.

 

[Weed]

Idk people are literally retarded for going to Pag despite there being dozens of botched stories from him, all visible just by googling for 10 seconds.

I saw the OP’s thread but didn’t want to say anything because I felt so bad over.

 

[Weed]

Damn....

I do have misgivings about how successful the surgery went but I simply was not educated enough for it. Hopefully the recovery (esp the lip incompetence) can resolve itself but I have some feeling it probably won't (at least not all the way). And yeah the long braces time sucks. I figured it would be like 6 months or something like that

What made you go to Pagnoni dude? What was the thought process?

 

[KingFrost]

I guess I could shop around for another ortho but I don't know if I'll actually commit to that. The stateside ortho I talked to who is continuing the braces work basically intends to take off the current braces I have and put in new ones to address the issues I went over in my thread. But yeah I intend to update the recovery progress and will definitely get a second opinion later if things don't look so good

 

[KingFrost]

What made you go to Pagnoni dude? What was the thought process?

Impulsiveness, lack of education and praying for a miracle tbh. The in-person consult seemed fine though so it's not like I saw any red flags during the meeting. I actually was aware of the bad PR based on the various reddit posts and even posts here but I wanted to throw myself into the waters I guess. I definitely should have done more consults with different surgeons.

 

[gravlek]

Wasn’t Pag originally mainly popularized for the fact that he worked giant and was pretty lenient? I could be wrong, @lurking truecel you’re the godfather of this section of the site, do you know more about his rise to prominence on org?

@KingFrost wishing you the best! It’s brave to share despite what happened

 

[gravlek]

Impulsiveness, lack of education and praying for a miracle tbh. The in-person consult seemed fine though so it's not like I saw any red flags during the meeting. I actually was aware of the bad PR based on the various reddit posts and even posts here but I wanted to throw myself into the waters I guess. I definitely should have done more consults with different surgeons.

For the people who don’t know, Pagnoni sometimes slips up during consultations and checks his phone, starts vaping or smoking, kinda a sign that he’s either addicted to nicotine (acceptable) or not interested in you as patient (unacceptable). Please watch out for this

Some info on pag:

Thread 'Take the pagnoni pill'
https://looksmax.org/threads/take-the-pagnoni-pill.765796/

Thread 'Pagnoni X-Ray from reddit'
https://looksmax.org/threads/pagnoni-x-ray-from-reddit.1809504/

Another Pagnoni Botch

As the thread title suggests, I developed various issues from Jaw surgery with this doctor. Immediate open bite two week-post op that has gotten worse (severe open bite now and crossbite, less tongue space/ oral volume, gummy smile). Functionally, I cannot chew at all anymore, can barely close...

looksmax.org

https://looksmax.org/threads/so-is-pagnoni-over.1807492/

Thread 'Just spoke with Pagnoni'
https://looksmax.org/threads/just-spoke-with-pagnoni.1539386/

 

[lurking truecel]

Wasn’t Pag originally mainly popularized for the fact that he worked giant and was pretty lenient? I could be wrong, @lurking truecel you’re the godfather of this section of the site, do you know more about his rise to prominence on org?

@KingFrost wishing you the best! It’s brave to share despite what happened

I mean from i remeberfrom omd threads he got pretty famous because he was one of the only surgeons who did saddle infras or that was whats being said in older threads. And somehow people thought he was some god at designing infras which obv wasnt true since he never designs infras himself but lets a company design it for him. Then for bimax he has been famous for a higher cut genio which is good i think and then that he does bigger movements generally. But he allways have had some weird cases, one famous old case sheiko or whatever his name was where he did bimax on a dude with good jaws who ended up like a chimp, but i dont know how that ended up in the end apart from the dude doing a long hate thread on pag for it.

And yes then he is famous for openly and closely working with giant. Even tough its still just giant sending in his designs to the other design company from what i recall it. And then giant has been there to learn i guess. And even taken inspiration from pags genios apparently.

Thats kinda the story i guess, it prob goes deeper. But also he has some threads on him from succesful cases with implants and bimax so that obv makes one famous instantly here.

 

[gravlek]

I mean from i remeberfrom omd threads he got pretty famous because he was one of the only surgeons who did saddle infras or that was whats being said in older threads.

Ah yes I remember this time period. Giant popularized the ‘saddles rim’ as a superior alternative to the traditional infra ortbital without the rim. Pagnoni was his main accomplice at the time for this I believe.

And somehow people thought he was some god at designing infras which obv wasnt true since he never designs infras himself but lets a company design it for him.

0 critical thinking skills, echo chamber effect. I remember how hyped up he got by the org user base. It was liams design/idea all along.

Then for bimax he has been famous for a higher cut genio which is good i think and then that he does bigger movements generally. But he allways have had some weird cases, one famous old case sheiko or whatever his name was where he did bimax on a dude with good jaws who ended up like a chimp, but i dont know how that ended up in the end apart from the dude doing a long hate thread on pag for it.

Yes I saw that case, I don’t think the dude should’ve been admitted to having that surgery in the first place tbh. He got dogmaxxed.

And yes then he is famous for openly and closely working with giant. Even tough its still just giant sending in his designs to the other design company from what i recall it. And then giant has been there to learn i guess. And even taken inspiration from pags genios apparently.

They had a mutually beneficial agreement I guess. Pag gets designs, Giant gets his flying hours.

Thats kinda the story i guess, it prob goes deeper. But also he has some threads on him from succesful cases with implants and bimax so that obv makes one famous instantly here.

I remember reading early threads on Pagnoni that mentioned one should only go to him if Giant is involved/present at the bimax surgery. Seems like that still kinda stands till today.

 

[lurking truecel]

Ah yes I remember this time period. Giant popularized the ‘saddles rim’ as a superior alternative to the traditional infra ortbital without the rim. Pagnoni was his main accomplice at the time for this I believe.


0 critical thinking skills, echo chamber effect. I remember how hyped up he got by the org user base. It was liams design/idea all along.


Yes I saw that case, I don’t think the dude should’ve been admitted to having that surgery in the first place tbh. He got dogmaxxed.

They had a mutually beneficial agreement I guess. Pag gets designs, Giant gets his flying hours.

I remember reading early threads on Pagnoni that mentioned one should only go to him if Giant is involved/present at the bimax surgery. Seems like that still kinda stands till today.

Yea, i mean he do have succesful bimax cases too but he seems to be playing some weird games. And he also often risk it with downgrafts and even genios, kinda like giant did with tim and he cant close lip and stuff right know either. I guess they have same aesthetic goal, and maybe its good because down grafts and big bone genios are good for strecthing out the face. But comes with risk like looking ogre and lip problems and overall big bimax issues. Doing impactions, smaller movements, sliding genios without downgraft is safer for those things

 

[gravlek]

Yea, i mean he do have succesful bimax cases too but he seems to be playing some weird games. And he also often risk it with downgrafts and even genios, kinda like giant did with tim and he cant close lip and stuff right know either. I guess they have same aesthetic goal, and maybe its good because down grafts and big bone genios are good for strecthing out the face. But comes with risk like looking ogre and lip problems and overall big bimax issues. Doing impactions, smaller movements, sliding genios without downgraft is safer for those things

Just fix failos don’t chase halos theory wins again, I guess

 

[HumanTitanium]

He seems to have a good eye for aesthetics, but the more cases we see - we realize his execution is questionable and too experimental. Pretty scary tbh

 

[Lookologist003]

30k for forgetting bsso plates, like damn man common

Careful. You don't want to get sued for defamation.

 

[Weed]

Forgetting a BSSO plate is something I have never seen before.

Unlikely he actually forgot let’s be honest, he is probably trying something new, for some reason. He’s basically using his patients as lab rats

Something new(slapping as many screws in as possible). It’s like a 5 year old building an ikea table.

 

[AustrianMogger]

this is a thread on @KingFrost bimax and infra, i hope you are doing okey and that everything i write here is just bad speculations. Also i have no real hate against pag but ehat the helly is going on?

First of all the dude has lip incompetence 2,5 months post op. Which is a long fucking time after surgery.


View attachment 5404491

And the dude has a anterior openbite that will take 1,5 year to close with braces like come on man

Pag charges 30k euro for bimax but cant even put bsso plates in ???? Are we fucking serious, ahh lets put 5 screws inside instead and pray to jesus. Thats ridicoulus, prob why the segment cw rotated and created the openbite.


View attachment 5404496

Like it looks like some random polish builder has been there and forgot plates so hell yea lets go with a dozen screws instead of putting plates in. And obv if you put all scews in at the back it wont hold as good as if you put it with a plate both posteriorly and anteriorly like a normal bsso plate.(basics physics)

View attachment 5404592

Also sure the final execution will allways differ some from the plan but its obv in this case the whole bimax was more cw and maxilla was even more downgrafted then planned. Making the molar teeth lower meaning the bsso segment goes lower and basically whole face gets downgrafted more, meaning lip incomptence becomes an issue just the same reason as why a horse faced fellow get lip incomptemce when the face grows downwards.



The pic below shows in blue the diff between plan and execution, its obv more downgrafted and cw rotated then expected. Also the 5 screws of hope and dreams makes it worse

View attachment 5404547

30k for forgetting bsso plates, like damn man common

still think he mogs ramieri

That said idk why you guys obsess so much with forum surgeons.

Same guys who want to go to these expensive LLs surgeons when your local surgeon can do it same or better.

 

[Lookologist003]

Something new(slapping as many screws in as possible). It’s like a 5 year old building an ikea table.

I was reading about the history of BSSO in how the writer of this page of Pocket Density summaries it. I found one of the statements about BSSO so shocking that I had to share it on the forum.

intermaxillary splinting of teeth together for several weeks.

I didn't know what this meant. Could it be what Pagnoni has done to these jaws? I couldn't find any photographs of "intermaxillary splinting of teeth together", so It's left up to interpretation. I'm like, "this arrangement of screws couldn't possibly be what they meant." But who knows.

 

[ldhilf]

The italian trio is losing a lot of the good reputation they once had

 

[Acquiescence]

Came here to shitpost @vnw[oggwg ’s Pags drawing

But soon came to realize I can’t find his “PAGNONI CONSULT DISTASTER” thread???

Fuck me is Pags getting negative shit about him deleted from here just like He Who Shall Not Be Named???

Be careful when questioning god Lurking!