softlysoftly
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Post peer reivewed evidence to refute my claims or shut the fuck up
alien
Kraken
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All that really matters is calories in, calories out and getting a sufficient amount of protein to maintain/grow muscle mass. Who gives a fuck about PUFAs? So as long as you don't consume too much of PUFA that it leads you to either not getting enough protein or eating too many calories.
coolguy1
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coolguy1
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the MOUSE
Bones don't lie, Mosley. See you in Animal Park
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interesting thread, ill come at this with neutral, open mind for purpose of further learning. ill agree on this tho, 3 pages of ppl just arguing from emotion, barely any studies given from themOne big problem is this attempt to connect PUFAs to heart disease, the actual outcome evidence does not support it; in fact, it like strongly supports the opposite.
Replacement of SFAs with PUFAs has a consistent protective effect on CVD.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30019767/
A systematic review of the effect of dietary saturated and polyunsaturated fat on heart disease - PubMed
Reducing saturated fat and replacing it with carbohydrate will not lower CHD events or CVD mortality although it will reduce total mortality. Replacing saturated fat with PUFA, MUFA or high-quality carbohydrate will lower CHD events.pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
This is likely due to a few different mechanisms, the first being that SFAs reliably increase blood LDL cholesterol levels and by default Apolipoprotein B (ApoB) which is thought to be a major factor contributing to atherosclerosis and CVD (more discussion on this later). Replacement of SFAs with PUFAs (particularly omega-3 PUFAs) has been shown to have a protective effect on CVD, likely by lowering LDL, ApoB, reducing inflammation, and various other proposed mechanisms.
This even holds true in a meta-analysis of CVD risk and linoleic acid intake.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32020162/
Dietary linoleic acid and risk of coronary heart disease: a systematic review and meta-analysis of prospective cohort studies - PubMed
In prospective observational studies, dietary LA intake is inversely associated with CHD risk in a dose-response manner. These data provide support for current recommendations to replace saturated fat with polyunsaturated fat for primary prevention of CHD.
Omega 3 PUFAs do appear to reduce risk in RCTs.
The effect of replacing saturated fat with mostly n-6 polyunsaturated fat on coronary heart disease: a meta-analysis of randomised controlled trials - PubMed
Available evidence from adequately controlled randomised controlled trials suggest replacing SFA with mostly n-6 PUFA is unlikely to reduce CHD events, CHD mortality or total mortality. The suggestion of benefits reported in earlier meta-analyses is due to the inclusion of inadequately...The effect of replacing saturated fat with mostly n-6 polyunsaturated fat on coronary heart disease: a meta-analysis of randomised controlled trials - PubMed
Available evidence from adequately controlled randomised controlled trials suggest replacing SFA with mostly n-6 PUFA is unlikely to reduce CHD events, CHD mortality or total mortality. The suggestion of benefits reported in earlier meta-analyses is due to the inclusion of inadequately...N-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids in coronary heart disease: a meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials - PubMed
This meta-analysis suggests that dietary and non-dietary intake of n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids reduces overall mortality, mortality due to myocardial infarction, and sudden death in patients with coronary heart disease.
While randomized controlled trials are the gold standard in research, we cannot neglect their limitations, especially when it comes to subject number and time duration. Compare this with the cohort studies on the effects of replacing SFA with PUFA that demonstrate quite a powerful protective effect of replacing SFA with PUFA that appears to be dose dependent.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6451787/
Further, even when specifically looking at omega 6 PUFAs there is a protective effect when replacing SFA with them.
In this cohort study, those with higher blood levels of omega 6 PUFAs had a 50% lower risk of a CVD incident during a 35 year follow up.
Association between Plasma N-6 Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Levels and the Risk of Cardiovascular Disease in a Community-based Cohort Study - Scientific Reports
Most studies support that saturated fatty acid replacement with polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) may reduce the risk of cardiovascular diseases (CVDs) and put emphasis on the effects of N-3 PUFAs. The reported relationships between N-6 PUFAs and CVD risks vary. We aimed to examine the...www.nature.com
TLDR: All of this to bring it back to the topic that saturated fat supposedly is good for you while PUFAs are bad. There is no hard evidence to back this up. People attempt to draw a mechanistic link between PUFA oxidation and CVD while ignoring the fact that saturated fat has a much STRONGER mechanistic link to CVD, which is backed up by actual outcome data in humans. Meanwhile, we not only have mechanistic data showing saturated fat can damage the arterial wall, but we also have outcome data and MR data across multiple lines of evidence showing saturated fat and LDL are most likely causal for CVD. There is no evidence that I am aware of demonstrating that PUFAs are casual for CVD, and if anything, they likely have a protective effect.
@ChristianChad @RabidRosaries @Moggable @russiancel
so ill give some studies
Dietary fats and health: dietary recommendations in the context of scientific evidence - PubMed
Although early studies showed that saturated fat diets with very low levels of PUFAs increase serum cholesterol, whereas other studies showed high serum cholesterol increased the risk of coronary artery disease (CAD), the evidence of dietary saturated fats increasing CAD or causing premature...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
PUFA Dangers Part 1: storage, mobilization and oxidation » TESTONATION
Polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) are fatty acids which have more than 1 double bond in their structure, whereas saturated fats have no double bonds (only single bonds). The more double bonds a fatty acid has, the more fluid it is, and the longer the saturated fatty acid chain is, the more...
men-elite.com
PUFA dangers Part 4: Influence on Cellular & Thyroid Function and Diabetes » TESTONATION
Polyunsaturated fat (PUFAs), when incorporated into cell membranes, make cells more fluid, which makes them chaotropic, disorderly and reduces their function (1). The increase in fluidity will allow more water, sodium, chloride, and calcium into the cell (edema), and lower intracellular...
men-elite.com
Search results for query: pufa
youve just given jew sponsored studies on pufas being good, n then saying saturated fats bad probs from other jew studies as well which have bad samples, dont consider other factors in consuming saturated fat that result negative health ramifications. bias fallacy to support ur dichotomous black white notion when much more complex irl
@BrahminBoss @7zyzz7 @Raydolf_Peatler @You thoughts? fuck idk how to tag so do like this
the MOUSE
Bones don't lie, Mosley. See you in Animal Park
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Good Fats, Bad Fats: Separating Fact from Fiction
🖨️ Print post Few driving factors have had such a profound influence on the transition from traditional to modern industrial diets as the campaign against animal fats and […]
www.westonaprice.org
kalefartbomb
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Nonsensical drivel, half-assed "studies".One big problem is this attempt to connect PUFAs to heart disease, the actual outcome evidence does not support it; in fact, it like strongly supports the opposite.
Replacement of SFAs with PUFAs has a consistent protective effect on CVD.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30019767/
A systematic review of the effect of dietary saturated and polyunsaturated fat on heart disease - PubMed
Reducing saturated fat and replacing it with carbohydrate will not lower CHD events or CVD mortality although it will reduce total mortality. Replacing saturated fat with PUFA, MUFA or high-quality carbohydrate will lower CHD events.
This is likely due to a few different mechanisms, the first being that SFAs reliably increase blood LDL cholesterol levels and by default Apolipoprotein B (ApoB) which is thought to be a major factor contributing to atherosclerosis and CVD (more discussion on this later). Replacement of SFAs with PUFAs (particularly omega-3 PUFAs) has been shown to have a protective effect on CVD, likely by lowering LDL, ApoB, reducing inflammation, and various other proposed mechanisms.
This even holds true in a meta-analysis of CVD risk and linoleic acid intake.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32020162/
Dietary linoleic acid and risk of coronary heart disease: a systematic review and meta-analysis of prospective cohort studies - PubMed
In prospective observational studies, dietary LA intake is inversely associated with CHD risk in a dose-response manner. These data provide support for current recommendations to replace saturated fat with polyunsaturated fat for primary prevention of CHD.
Omega 3 PUFAs do appear to reduce risk in RCTs.
The effect of replacing saturated fat with mostly n-6 polyunsaturated fat on coronary heart disease: a meta-analysis of randomised controlled trials - PubMed
Available evidence from adequately controlled randomised controlled trials suggest replacing SFA with mostly n-6 PUFA is unlikely to reduce CHD events, CHD mortality or total mortality. The suggestion of benefits reported in earlier meta-analyses is due to the inclusion of inadequately...The effect of replacing saturated fat with mostly n-6 polyunsaturated fat on coronary heart disease: a meta-analysis of randomised controlled trials - PubMed
Available evidence from adequately controlled randomised controlled trials suggest replacing SFA with mostly n-6 PUFA is unlikely to reduce CHD events, CHD mortality or total mortality. The suggestion of benefits reported in earlier meta-analyses is due to the inclusion of inadequately...N-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids in coronary heart disease: a meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials - PubMed
This meta-analysis suggests that dietary and non-dietary intake of n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids reduces overall mortality, mortality due to myocardial infarction, and sudden death in patients with coronary heart disease.
While randomized controlled trials are the gold standard in research, we cannot neglect their limitations, especially when it comes to subject number and time duration. Compare this with the cohort studies on the effects of replacing SFA with PUFA that demonstrate quite a powerful protective effect of replacing SFA with PUFA that appears to be dose dependent.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6451787/
Further, even when specifically looking at omega 6 PUFAs there is a protective effect when replacing SFA with them.
In this cohort study, those with higher blood levels of omega 6 PUFAs had a 50% lower risk of a CVD incident during a 35 year follow up.Association between Plasma N-6 Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Levels and the Risk of Cardiovascular Disease in a Community-based Cohort Study - Scientific Reports
Most studies support that saturated fatty acid replacement with polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) may reduce the risk of cardiovascular diseases (CVDs) and put emphasis on the effects of N-3 PUFAs. The reported relationships between N-6 PUFAs and CVD risks vary. We aimed to examine the...
TLDR: All of this to bring it back to the topic that saturated fat supposedly is good for you while PUFAs are bad. There is no hard evidence to back this up. People attempt to draw a mechanistic link between PUFA oxidation and CVD while ignoring the fact that saturated fat has a much STRONGER mechanistic link to CVD, which is backed up by actual outcome data in humans. Meanwhile, we not only have mechanistic data showing saturated fat can damage the arterial wall, but we also have outcome data and MR data across multiple lines of evidence showing saturated fat and LDL are most likely causal for CVD. There is no evidence that I am aware of demonstrating that PUFAs are casual for CVD, and if anything, they likely have a protective effect.
@ChristianChad @RabidRosaries @Moggable @russiancel
LDL is just a means of energy transport. You can reduce your LDL by more than 50% by simply adding a box of cookies to your daily diet. If you fast - literally eat nothing - your LDL will go up. Let's all snack on cookies to be healthy right? The way LDL really works is that the leaner you are and the more your metabolism is adapted to burning fat, the higher LDL will be as that is signalled to transport more fat for energy. This is why eating cookies lowers LDL; it switches metabolism back to sugar.
Your understanding of cholesterol is outdated and dangerous, and you also need to realise that the entire food and pharmaceutical industry (and therefore academia) is financially invested in your wrong model of cholesterol for the reason I just outlined; crappy sugary foods lower LDL, healthy traditional foods raise LDL. If you want to sell profitable foods you also need to sell the "benefits" of low LDL cholesterol. There is zero clinical data that LDL is unhealthy. Quite the opposite high total cholesterol is associated with longer lifespan and low LDL specifically is strongly associated with morbidity and heart disease. There is a mass of data both clinical and anecdotal about the toxicity of high carb diets.
Saturated fats are healthy since they are stable due to having "saturated" bonds whereas the unsaturated fats (especially PUFAs) are less stable causing them to be more oxidative. In small amounts as found in nature this is not a problem but in larger amounts that you find in modern foods this causes all sorts of chronic inflammation and auto-immune disorders. A normal healthy food like wild meat will contain very small amounts of PUFAs in a 1:1 ratio. Modern foods have a poor ratio of PUFAs (plants do not contain any DHA at all) and far too much of certain ones.
Ideally our fats should be saturated and monounsaturated, with small amounts of natural PUFAs. We should have high total cholesterol, high HDL : Trig ratios. These biomarkers are associated with being very lean and athletic.
Youㅤ
seriousmaxxing , only talk serious
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Yeah, like you said, the studies that @softlysoftly posted are flawed. Associations and meta-analyses can be useful, but drawing conclusions from such data will mislead you.interesting thread, ill come at this with neutral, open mind for purpose of further learning. ill agree on this tho, 3 pages of ppl just arguing from emotion, barely any studies given from them
so ill give some studies
Dietary fats and health: dietary recommendations in the context of scientific evidence - PubMed
Although early studies showed that saturated fat diets with very low levels of PUFAs increase serum cholesterol, whereas other studies showed high serum cholesterol increased the risk of coronary artery disease (CAD), the evidence of dietary saturated fats increasing CAD or causing premature...PUFA Dangers Part 1: storage, mobilization and oxidation » TESTONATION
Polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) are fatty acids which have more than 1 double bond in their structure, whereas saturated fats have no double bonds (only single bonds). The more double bonds a fatty acid has, the more fluid it is, and the longer the saturated fatty acid chain is, the more...PUFA dangers Part 4: Influence on Cellular & Thyroid Function and Diabetes » TESTONATION
Polyunsaturated fat (PUFAs), when incorporated into cell membranes, make cells more fluid, which makes them chaotropic, disorderly and reduces their function (1). The increase in fluidity will allow more water, sodium, chloride, and calcium into the cell (edema), and lower intracellular...Search results for query: pufa
raypeatforum.com
youve just given jew sponsored studies on pufas being good, n then saying saturated fats bad probs from other jew studies as well which have bad samples, dont consider other factors in consuming saturated fat that result negative health ramifications. bias fallacy to support ur dichotomous black white notion when much more complex irl
@BrahminBoss @7zyzz7 @Raydolf_Peatler @You thoughts? fuck idk how to tag so do like this
Taking an evolutionary perspective is more reliable IMO. A general trend is that the higher the percent PUFA content in animal species, the shorter the lifespan. In humans, a natural diet would have much less PUFAs because seed oils would not be consumed. People likely would eat minimal seeds through fruits but they would pass through indigested.
For mechanistic evidence, a high-PUFA tissue ages faster because they are susceptible to lipid peroxidation, which then further damages nearby structures.
Tissue PUFA content is perhaps largely genetic. The offspring of centenarians had less PUFA in their tissue. I don’t have the study and am too lazy to find it.
Also, PUFAs accumulate with aging. Generally anything that accumulates with aging is pro-aging.
PUFA content in tissues and PUFA dietary consumption are different, but the notion that lowering dietary PUFA intake is also supported (by mouse study):
Fight Aging By Replacing PUFAs With SFAs And MUFAs (Study Analysis)
High PUFA fat sources decrease lifespan compared to lard (high MUFA and high SFA) in mice on a calorie restricted diet “Life span was also increased (p < .05) in the CR lard mice compared to animals consuming either the CR fish or soybean oil diets. These results indicate that dietary lipid...
looksmax.org
Another mechanistic piece of evidence against PUFAs is that prostaglandins are derived from PUFAs. Prostaglandins are inflammatory. Aspirin lowers prostaglandins and also increases median lifespan of murine models.
I will postulate that perhaps it is important that SFAs are balanced with MUFAs to prevent ferroptosis:
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7zyzz7
Eradicate Humanity 2024
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pufa is a carcinogen, just like bpa, thats it
IAMNOTANINCEL
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proof?
M
Miniskull
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Israeli paradox - Wikipedia
French paradox - Wikipedia
M
Miniskull
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So if there was a peer reviewed study (which basically means that someone with power wrote something and uploaded it, the fact that you see them as absolute fact is fucking hilarious, you sheep really are the worst scum on this earth ) that told you that arsenic was good, you would consume arsenic ?
M
Miniskull
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How do mcdonalds fries and chips have saturated fats you absolute moron ? They fry the fries in canola or soybean oil. Where do the saturated fats come from ?
the MOUSE
Bones don't lie, Mosley. See you in Animal Park
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ye, imo main thing for aging is reducing cortisol, inflammation, improving cellular processes as much possible. more advanced n hypothetical bit wishy washy but interesting concept as mind undoubtedly has very strong influence via placebo/nocebo, maybe inducing epigenetic changes from deep meditation/will like monkcels or crispr in future to stop telomer shortening etc.Yeah, like you said, the studies that @softlysoftly posted are flawed. Associations and meta-analyses can be useful, but drawing conclusions from such data will mislead you.
Taking an evolutionary perspective is more reliable IMO. A general trend is that the higher the percent PUFA content in animal species, the shorter the lifespan. In humans, a natural diet would have much less PUFAs because seed oils would not be consumed. People likely would eat minimal seeds through fruits but they would pass through indigested.
For mechanistic evidence, a high-PUFA tissue ages faster because they are susceptible to lipid peroxidation, which then further damages nearby structures.
Tissue PUFA content is perhaps largely genetic. The offspring of centenarians had less PUFA in their tissue. I don’t have the study and am too lazy to find it.
Also, PUFAs accumulate with aging. Generally anything that accumulates with aging is pro-aging.
PUFA content in tissues and PUFA dietary consumption are different, but the notion that lowering dietary PUFA intake is also supported (by mouse study):
Fight Aging By Replacing PUFAs With SFAs And MUFAs (Study Analysis)
High PUFA fat sources decrease lifespan compared to lard (high MUFA and high SFA) in mice on a calorie restricted diet “Life span was also increased (p < .05) in the CR lard mice compared to animals consuming either the CR fish or soybean oil diets. These results indicate that dietary lipid...
Another mechanistic piece of evidence against PUFAs is that prostaglandins are derived from PUFAs. Prostaglandins are inflammatory. Aspirin lowers prostaglandins and also increases median lifespan of murine models.
I will postulate that perhaps it is important that SFAs are balanced with MUFAs to prevent ferroptosis:
do u know hans amato? his page n yt channel has alot of good articles info imo https://men-elite.com/ , he supports ray peat ideology, imo ray peat with some modifications could be among one of best diets. a common trope n dilemma with anti aging is compromise of energy, mood, physical capabilities etc alongside it, i may be wrong but i think current main consesus on anti aging rn is slowing metabolic processes thru heavy caloric restriction etc. preserving youth long possible is the key to look at than extending lifespan imo, like stopping aging after 25 somehow. how u can do all inflammatory etc shit at young n be fine unlike older age where that would have carcinogenic etc effect. @enchanted_elixir has good knowledge on this i think, like genes that aid in early cancer detection and destruction before it goes uncontrolled, enhanced DNA repair, robust tumor-suppressing genes, or more efficient cell death pathways that eliminate damaged or potentially cancerous cells.
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the MOUSE
Bones don't lie, Mosley. See you in Animal Park
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another theory @Umbra is that this realm is demonic, inevitable suffering. like in bible, god granted satan rule and dominion over this world. enlightenment is escaping reincarnation trap into nothingness/higher plane. what can u rlly even do in this life? its all meaningless. i keep on living, because im very curious what feeling of true sex, love, intimacy feels like with woman tho. after that ive attained it all n completed life. i dont need anything else, money, fame, rich etc is materialistic hedonic cope
D
Deleted member 13626
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Jfl why the tag in this random thread tho
Regardless of how sex or anything good feels here, it will feel better in higher planes of existence. So good in fact we can’t even imagine with our limited imagination and senses.
This world regardless of looks/wealth is just a meaningless fake copy of something bigger
Dm me if u want to talk more in private
the MOUSE
Bones don't lie, Mosley. See you in Animal Park
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sure, ill be more inactive coming times tho, unless my subforum mod application gets accepted jfl. what resources r good to further quest of enlightenment, what other important knowledge is there to consider?
or is knowledge of soul trap sufficient enough already
D
Deleted member 13626
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Its alr bro, I don’t rot on this forum myself so i’m not 24/7 online
The resources are endless, take useful information from every source like a sponge and absorb it but keep your mind open even if you don’t agree on it.
I can’t give you a definitive answer since I’m not like religious people to say x is 100% true or y will 100% happen. But in dms i will clear things up
Youㅤ
seriousmaxxing , only talk serious
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I do something where I focus my intent on ageing slower, sometimes alongside meditative breathing. Whether or not it directly helps through some sophisticated complex mechanisms, focusing my intent will lead to results because it induces myself to go in that path.
Sometimes, I also just picture myself as young and picture the damage that occurred during that day being fixed.
Ray peat diet is a good diet, but yeah not optimal for longevity based on the rate of living theory of aging. I’m also not too big of a fan of high galactose and fructose in an anti aging diet.do u know hans amato? his page n yt channel has alot of good articles info imo https://men-elite.com/ , he supports ray peat ideology, imo ray peat with some modifications could be among one of best diets. a common trope n dilemma with anti aging is compromise of energy, mood, physical capabilities etc alongside it, i may be wrong but i think current main consesus on anti aging rn is slowing metabolic processes thru heavy caloric restriction etc. preserving youth long possible is the key to look at than extending lifespan imo, like stopping aging after 25 somehow. how u can do all inflammatory etc shit at young n be fine unlike older age where that would have carcinogenic etc effect. @@enchanted_elixir has good knowledge on this i think, like genes that aid in early cancer detection and destruction before it goes uncontrolled, enhanced DNA repair, robust tumor-suppressing genes, or more efficient cell death pathways that eliminate damaged or potentially cancerous cells.
I don’t think caloric restriction is feasible. Yeah obviously don’t get fat but it’s too hard to restrict calories for any long period. Periodic fasting is good though, and caloric restriction mimetics are better than CR imo. Essential amino acid restriction is sort similar to caloric restriction for anti aging probably.
Another problem with caloric restriction is that you would have reduced micronutrient supply.
the MOUSE
Bones don't lie, Mosley. See you in Animal Park
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ye i agree on fructose, i have very little of that tbh. main carbs source is rice, potatoes, glucose syrup for me
https://men-elite.com/2020/05/29/insulin-the-wrongly-accused-hormone/
https://men-elite.com/2020/06/05/how-to-improve-insulin-sensitivity-the-right-way/
tbh idrk, all this shit is too complex jfl, trying to micromanage all this just raises cortisol. you see centenarians of varying backgrounds, mediterrean, okinawa etc diets, common tenet however i think is their low cortisol, stress, inflammation.
im just increasing igf1 for physique, bones. i just want to ascend, be gl n have sex, if i have that im contempt with everything n could die next day in peace
@Youㅤ
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Youㅤ
seriousmaxxing , only talk serious
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I eat a moderate amount of fructose from fruits, which isn’t ideal but i think fructose is probably not as bad as some people think. Fruits are good ideally low fructose though. Galactose is why I don’t drink milk. It’s also more reactive than glucose.
Man this guy is really based. Thx for introducing his website to me, I’ll read more.
Another potential thing they have in common is good mineral supply. I can send you the Dead Doctors Don’t Lie book On discord.
the MOUSE
Bones don't lie, Mosley. See you in Animal Park
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sure, ye pm ur discord. esp ill probs use this site lot less soon
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