Why MSE sucks, and turns you into a definitionless ape (better MSE theory)

[Deleted member 23391]

Because an evenly split expansion of the palate will give you an uncanny and unaesthetic maxilla. It expands the front of the palate too much which widens the pyriform aperture unnaturally and gives you a monkey nose. Let's look at the conebeams of some MSE patients, shall we?

These do not look like normal skulls, the pyriform aperture becomes like a gaped asshole!!!


A naturally wide palate is not as wide towards the front which is why I prepared this illustration:

Ignore the position of the teeth and look at the actual bone. The MSE expands too much near the anterior nasal spine which is not how a naturally wide and well-developed palate is. This causes the aperture to widen and for the cheekbones to not get pushed forward much if at all. To get a naturally looking harmonious result you would need to expand more near the POSTERIOR NASAL SPINE than MSE. The problem is that you need something more like THIS:

This modified MSE would also be superior because it would push the cheekbones FORWARD more rather than just widening them and would push the pyriform aperture OUTWARD but not widen it, leading to better paranasal support. You'd need 2 expanders placed, one at the front of the mouth, and one at the back, or an expander which flanged and rotated outward.

 

[rooman]

yes

 

[rooman]

yes

 

[NegativeNorwood]

True. Only surgically assisted BAME (Bone Anchored Maxillary Expanders) can achieve even expansion and avoid nose widening.
For those who already have decent palate width but narrow arches, SFOT/PAAO are very convenient and can give up to 10mm of stable dental arch expansion, with impeccable results (even expansion too).

 

[smvmaxxertilllate]

True. Only surgically assisted BAME (Bone Anchored Maxillary Expanders) can achieve even expansion and avoid nose widening.
For those who already have decent palate width but narrow arches, SFOT/PAAO are very convenient and can give up to 10mm of stable dental arch expansion, with impeccable results (even expansion too).

Providers? I need wider lips but already have a wide nose.

 

[NegativeNorwood]

Providers?

Your ortho has to work with a provider, because the expander has to be 3d printed using your CBCT scan. "Power Expander" and "DS Xpander" are two BAME devices, and I'm sure there are more.

PAAO and SFOT are corticotomies + braces, they cut into your gums and graft bone there a week before putting braces or Invisalign on you, which makes the orthodontic treatment up to 50% faster, more predictable, provides greater dental arch widening and with more stable results. This can be done by any ortho specialized in accelerated orthodontics.

This is a PAAO result, after 9 months (notice that she already had a decent palate but crowded dental arches):

Facebook

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Wider dental arches will give you wider and fuller lips due to muscle stretching and the better support provided by the wider arches btw:

 

[garoupilled_]

high tier post for a greycel

 

[Deleted member 23391]

True. Only surgically assisted BAME (Bone Anchored Maxillary Expanders) can achieve even expansion and avoid nose widening.
For those who already have decent palate width but narrow arches, SFOT/PAAO are very convenient and can give up to 10mm of stable dental arch expansion, with impeccable results (even expansion too).

How would one even get more posterior expansion? What about scoring the pterygomaxillary suture with a piezoelectric blade from the PNS, not all the way up to the ANS, then placing a bone-borne expander posteriorly? You might need a 2 TAD expander, because 4 TADs may be too stable and not allow you achieve the ideal degree of a cone-shaped expansion pattern I was describing.

 

[NegativeNorwood]

How would one even get more posterior expansion? What about scoring the pterygomaxillary suture with a piezoelectric blade from the PNS, not all the way up to the ANS, then placing a bone-borne expander posteriorly? You might need a 2 TAD expander, because 4 TADs may be too stable and not allow you achieve the ideal degree of a cone-shaped expansion pattern I was describing.

With surgical assist to weaken the suture + a much more powerful expander. That makes even, parallel expansion possible.
This is the MSE expander:

This is the Power Expander:

It doesn't take a genius to see that the MSE device is cucked in comparison.
MSE expands in a cone shaped pattern because of lack of surgical assist + weak, cucked expander. Power Expander/DS Xpander + surgical assist = even, parallel expansion, no need for anything else.

I think you may find this thread insteresting, read from this post onwards:

12 tooth smile is an unmoggable trait. Swallow the smilepill.

Meanwhile the guy who your crush rubs herself to at night (I count 6) 8, and would look even better with a wider palate and less visible buccal corridors, like everyone else.

looksmax.org

 

[Deleted member 23391]

accidental double post, mods delete please

 

[Deleted member 23391]

With surgical assist to weaken the suture + a much more powerful expander. That makes even, parallel expansion possible.
This is the MSE expander:

This is the Power Expander:

It doesn't take a genius to see that the MSE device is cucked in comparison.
MSE expands in a cone shaped pattern because of lack of surgical assist + weak, cucked expander. Power Expander/DS Xpander + surgical assist = even, parallel expansion, no need for anything else.

I think you may find this thread insteresting, read from this post onwards:

12 tooth smile is an unmoggable trait. Swallow the smilepill.

Meanwhile the guy who your crush rubs herself to at night (I count 6) 8, and would look even better with a wider palate and less visible buccal corridors, like everyone else.

looksmax.org

My entire point is that even, parallel expansion is likely not ideal and inferior to disproportionately posterior expansion. I want more posterior expansion, cone-shaped, the inverse of what the weak expanders + corticopuncture give you (so more posterior expansion rather than more anterior expansion)

 

[NegativeNorwood]

My entire point is that even, parallel expansion is likely not ideal and inferior to disproportionately posterior expansion. I want more posterior expansion, cone-shaped, the inverse of what the weak expanders + corticopuncture give you (so more posterior expansion rather than more anterior expansion)

That means you already have good palate width (no crowded or mildly crowded upper and lower anterior teeth). Then save yourself money, trouble and time and get accelerated orthodontics (SFOT/PAAO), like the cases I posted above. They'll give you plenty of posterior dental arch expansion.

Ormco Damon™ System provides full arch development | Ormco

Read the research done to study how Damon System treatment achieves arch width expansion without the need for Rapid Palatal Expanders or surgery.

ormco.com

That person got almost 10 mm of posterior widening with Damon braces, could have got them in half as much time, with even more stable results with surgery assisted braces like PAAO/SFOT.

 

[Deleted member 23391]

That means you already have good palate width (no crowded or mildly crowded upper and lower anterior teeth). Then save yourself money, trouble and time and get accelerated orthodontics (SFOT/PAAO), like the cases I posted above. They'll give you plenty of posterior dental arch expansion.

Ormco Damon™ System provides full arch development | Ormco

Read the research done to study how Damon System treatment achieves arch width expansion without the need for Rapid Palatal Expanders or surgery.

ormco.com

That person got almost 10 mm of posterior widening with Damon braces, could have got them in half as much time, with even more stable results with surgery assisted braces like PAAO/SFOT.

But what if I want midfacial changes, not just orthodontia? I think my idea has a lot of potential, aesthetically speaking, because it could theoretically push the zygoma forward and give additional paranasal support without causing the undesirable consequences of MSE.

 

[NegativeNorwood]

But what if I want midfacial changes, not just orthodontia? I think my idea has a lot of potential, aesthetically speaking, because it could theoretically push the zygoma forward and give additional paranasal support without causing the undesirable consequences of MSE.

Honestly, I don't know.
Tbh I wouldn't bother with it too much, Lefort 1 + custom infraorbital malar implants with saddle can give you mogger and predictable results with regards to entire midface changes, without the negative MSE consequences.

 

[slickrick123]

But what if I want midfacial changes, not just orthodontia? I think my idea has a lot of potential, aesthetically speaking, because it could theoretically push the zygoma forward and give additional paranasal support without causing the undesirable consequences of MSE.

wild SFOT + facemask not work for maxillary protraction?

 

[Deleted member 23391]

wild SFOT + facemask not work for maxillary protraction?

It wouldn't expand the maxilla posteriorly like my proposed idea, no.

 

[slickrick123]

It wouldn't expand the maxilla posteriorly like my proposed idea, no.

no but it would advance the upper mid face forward, liek the effect of lefort 3 without the bad effects that come with mse

 

[slickrick123]

ffs

 

[slickrick123]

It wouldn't expand the maxilla posteriorly like my proposed idea, no.

ignore it's spamming my comments

 

[Deleted member 23391]

no but it would advance the upper mid face forward, liek the effect of lefort 3 without the bad effects that come with mse

I don't see how that would be the case.

 

[Deleted member 23391]

Where do I find a compliant provider who will do this to me?

 

[Deleted member 28774]

Because an evenly split expansion of the palate will give you an uncanny and unaesthetic maxilla. It expands the front of the palate too much which widens the pyriform aperture unnaturally and gives you a monkey nose. Let's look at the conebeams of some MSE patients, shall we?

View attachment 2169928
View attachment 2169929
View attachment 2169930
View attachment 2169934

These do not look like normal skulls, the pyriform aperture becomes like a gaped asshole!!!


A naturally wide palate is not as wide towards the front which is why I prepared this illustration:

View attachment 2169959
Ignore the position of the teeth and look at the actual bone. The MSE expands too much near the anterior nasal spine which is not how a naturally wide and well-developed palate is. This causes the aperture to widen and for the cheekbones to not get pushed forward much if at all. To get a naturally looking harmonious result you would need to expand more near the POSTERIOR NASAL SPINE than MSE. The problem is that you need something more like THIS:

View attachment 2169970

This modified MSE would also be superior because it would push the cheekbones FORWARD more rather than just widening them and would push the pyriform aperture OUTWARD but not widen it, leading to better paranasal support. You'd need 2 expanders placed, one at the front of the mouth, and one at the back, or an expander which flanged and rotated outward.

how do i ask for this type of expansion to my orthodontist

 

[Deleted member 28774]

Because an evenly split expansion of the palate will give you an uncanny and unaesthetic maxilla. It expands the front of the palate too much which widens the pyriform aperture unnaturally and gives you a monkey nose. Let's look at the conebeams of some MSE patients, shall we?

View attachment 2169928
View attachment 2169929
View attachment 2169930
View attachment 2169934

These do not look like normal skulls, the pyriform aperture becomes like a gaped asshole!!!


A naturally wide palate is not as wide towards the front which is why I prepared this illustration:

View attachment 2169959
Ignore the position of the teeth and look at the actual bone. The MSE expands too much near the anterior nasal spine which is not how a naturally wide and well-developed palate is. This causes the aperture to widen and for the cheekbones to not get pushed forward much if at all. To get a naturally looking harmonious result you would need to expand more near the POSTERIOR NASAL SPINE than MSE. The problem is that you need something more like THIS:

View attachment 2169970

This modified MSE would also be superior because it would push the cheekbones FORWARD more rather than just widening them and would push the pyriform aperture OUTWARD but not widen it, leading to better paranasal support. You'd need 2 expanders placed, one at the front of the mouth, and one at the back, or an expander which flanged and rotated outward.

how do i ask for this type of expansion to my orthodontist

 

[Deleted member 28774]

Because an evenly split expansion of the palate will give you an uncanny and unaesthetic maxilla. It expands the front of the palate too much which widens the pyriform aperture unnaturally and gives you a monkey nose. Let's look at the conebeams of some MSE patients, shall we?

View attachment 2169928
View attachment 2169929
View attachment 2169930
View attachment 2169934

These do not look like normal skulls, the pyriform aperture becomes like a gaped asshole!!!


A naturally wide palate is not as wide towards the front which is why I prepared this illustration:

View attachment 2169959
Ignore the position of the teeth and look at the actual bone. The MSE expands too much near the anterior nasal spine which is not how a naturally wide and well-developed palate is. This causes the aperture to widen and for the cheekbones to not get pushed forward much if at all. To get a naturally looking harmonious result you would need to expand more near the POSTERIOR NASAL SPINE than MSE. The problem is that you need something more like THIS:

View attachment 2169970

This modified MSE would also be superior because it would push the cheekbones FORWARD more rather than just widening them and would push the pyriform aperture OUTWARD but not widen it, leading to better paranasal support. You'd need 2 expanders placed, one at the front of the mouth, and one at the back, or an expander which flanged and rotated outward.

how do i ask for this type of expansion to my orthodontist

 

[Deleted member 28774]

Because an evenly split expansion of the palate will give you an uncanny and unaesthetic maxilla. It expands the front of the palate too much which widens the pyriform aperture unnaturally and gives you a monkey nose. Let's look at the conebeams of some MSE patients, shall we?

View attachment 2169928
View attachment 2169929
View attachment 2169930
View attachment 2169934

These do not look like normal skulls, the pyriform aperture becomes like a gaped asshole!!!


A naturally wide palate is not as wide towards the front which is why I prepared this illustration:

View attachment 2169959
Ignore the position of the teeth and look at the actual bone. The MSE expands too much near the anterior nasal spine which is not how a naturally wide and well-developed palate is. This causes the aperture to widen and for the cheekbones to not get pushed forward much if at all. To get a naturally looking harmonious result you would need to expand more near the POSTERIOR NASAL SPINE than MSE. The problem is that you need something more like THIS:

View attachment 2169970

This modified MSE would also be superior because it would push the cheekbones FORWARD more rather than just widening them and would push the pyriform aperture OUTWARD but not widen it, leading to better paranasal support. You'd need 2 expanders placed, one at the front of the mouth, and one at the back, or an expander which flanged and rotated outward.

how do i ask for this type of expansion to my orthodontist

Because an evenly split expansion of the palate will give you an uncanny and unaesthetic maxilla. It expands the front of the palate too much which widens the pyriform aperture unnaturally and gives you a monkey nose. Let's look at the conebeams of some MSE patients, shall we?

View attachment 2169928
View attachment 2169929
View attachment 2169930
View attachment 2169934

These do not look like normal skulls, the pyriform aperture becomes like a gaped asshole!!!


A naturally wide palate is not as wide towards the front which is why I prepared this illustration:

View attachment 2169959
Ignore the position of the teeth and look at the actual bone. The MSE expands too much near the anterior nasal spine which is not how a naturally wide and well-developed palate is. This causes the aperture to widen and for the cheekbones to not get pushed forward much if at all. To get a naturally looking harmonious result you would need to expand more near the POSTERIOR NASAL SPINE than MSE. The problem is that you need something more like THIS:

View attachment 2169970

This modified MSE would also be superior because it would push the cheekbones FORWARD more rather than just widening them and would push the pyriform aperture OUTWARD but not widen it, leading to better paranasal support. You'd need 2 expanders placed, one at the front of the mouth, and one at the back, or an expander which flanged and rotated outward.

how do i communicate this to my orthodontist

 

[Deleted member 23391]

how do i ask for this type of expansion to my orthodontist

I don't actually know myself. But let me know if you find something out. Keep in mind that I just invented this entire concept.

 

[ripcordgod1]

@julianchicago @Dr. Bruh

 

[Deleted member 21044]

@julianchicago @Dr. Bruh

Yes just get expansion braces.

 

[spark]

Moon said that the back of maxilla widens more than the front with MSE

 

[spark]

With surgical assist to weaken the suture + a much more powerful expander. That makes even, parallel expansion possible.
This is the MSE expander:

This is the Power Expander:

It doesn't take a genius to see that the MSE device is cucked in comparison.
MSE expands in a cone shaped pattern because of lack of surgical assist + weak, cucked expander. Power Expander/DS Xpander + surgical assist = even, parallel expansion, no need for anything else.

I think you may find this thread insteresting, read from this post onwards:

12 tooth smile is an unmoggable trait. Swallow the smilepill.

Meanwhile the guy who your crush rubs herself to at night (I count 6) 8, and would look even better with a wider palate and less visible buccal corridors, like everyone else.

looksmax.org

Is there any evidence Power Expander is better in terms of posterior expansion? I mean it's a newer invention than the now 6 years old MSE v2.

 

[NegativeNorwood]

Is there any evidence Power Expander is better in terms of posterior expansion? I mean it's a newer invention than the now 6 years old MSE v2.

Look at the 4th slide:


16 mm anterior expansion, 15.7 mm posterior expansion. More than enough proof jfl
Now look at the MSE expansion pattern and it barely expands posteriorly, only anteriorly. It is cucked in comparison.

 

[HalfGypsyMogger]

Look at the 4th slide:


16 mm anterior expansion, 15.7 mm posterior expansion. More than enough proof jfl
Now look at the MSE expansion pattern and it barely expands posteriorly, only anteriorly. It is cucked in comparison.

Good shit op it s actually interesting
Also look at the doc bones, how can u not trust him?

 

[spark]

Look at the 4th slide:


16 mm anterior expansion, 15.7 mm posterior expansion. More than enough proof jfl
Now look at the MSE expansion pattern and it barely expands posteriorly, only anteriorly. It is cucked in comparison.

Is it though? That is the same amount of expansion in both areas. Well actually less in the posterior. No evidence I have ever seen that MSE doesn't do the same. In fact Moon himself said this cone style expansion issue was already fixed with his first expander. Kasey Li's lies aren't proof he doesn't source his nonsense just peddles his own scam. JFL if you think he would recommend the power expander.

 

[NegativeNorwood]

Is it though? That is the same amount of expansion in both areas. Well actually less in the posterior. No evidence I have ever seen that MSE doesn't do the same. In fact Moon himself said this cone style expansion issue was already fixed with his first expander. Kasey Li's lies aren't proof he doesn't source his nonsense just peddles his own scam. JFL if you think he would recommend the power expander.

MSE is very inferior. This thing is custom made using the CBCT scan as reference, more powerful and even costs the same. Why would you want to bother with weaker, generic, one size fits all MSE when this exists? MSE is just a type of MARPE, get better MARPE with a custom made BAME device and a better result instead.

 

[spark]

MSE is very inferior. This thing is custom made using the CBCT scan as reference, more powerful and even costs the same. Why would you want to bother with weaker, generic, one size fits all MSE when this exists? MSE is just a type of MARPE, get better MARPE with a custom made BAME device and a better result instead.

very vague and off topic answer

so there is no evidence Varela's expander does more posteriorly than MSE

 

[NegativeNorwood]

very vague and off topic answer

so there is no evidence Varela's expander does more posteriorly than MSE

Dude just look at the scan and find a MSE one that expands evenly like that, no need to write a thesis.

 

[spark]

Dude just look at the scan and find a MSE one that expands evenly like that, no need to write a thesis.

Show me one case that doesn't because Won Moon said the expansion is not cone shaped.

 

[NegativeNorwood]

Show me one case that doesn't because Won Moon said the expansion is not cone shaped.

Post some here, like the slides I posted showing even, parallel expansion. Otherwise is just hearsay.

 

[spark]

Post some here, like the slides I posted showing even, parallel expansion. Otherwise is just hearsay.

rip

 

[NegativeNorwood]

rip

Rip what?
It's an improvement (like going from 1 PSL to 1.5 PSL) but that's too little expansion. The one I posted expanded 16mm, and can even go to 18mm.
Lmao at getting off the shelf MSE expander that barely gets you 10mm in a best case scenario when you can get a custom made one for the same price that goes up to 18mm.

RIP MSE if anything.

 

[spark]

Rip what?
It's an improvement (like going from 1 PSL to 1.5 PSL) but that's too little expansion. The one I posted expanded 16mm, and can even go to 18mm.
Lmao at getting off the shelf MSE expander that barely gets you 10mm in a best case scenario when you can get a custom made one for the same price that goes up to 18mm.

RIP MSE if anything.

off topic rambling

now let's hear some "hearsay"

 

[NegativeNorwood]

off topic rambling

now let's hear some "hearsay"

Calls a legit argument off topic lmao

Keep crying cuck

 

[spark]

Calls a legit argument off topic lmao

Keep crying cuck

Stop embarrassing yourself brainlet. Both expanders do the same parallel split unlike what OP proposed.

 

[AscendingHero]

First and foremost, great thread

This modified MSE would also be superior because it would push the cheekbones FORWARD more rather than just widening them and would push the pyriform aperture OUTWARD but not widen it, leading to better paranasal support.

Would you mind explaining more, do you have any visuals to depict this?


Explain how widening versus moving the pyiform aperture "outward" is different and how the latter leads to be paranasal support?

How does more PNS expansion lead to ADVANCEMENT of the maxilla?

The answer to all of this would be a custom made bone anchored expander, facegenics for example is tailored made for maxillary /midfacial expansion

 

[longjohnmong]

Would you mind explaining more, do you have any visuals to depict this?

I think he means because if you expand the back without expanding the front then the back has to swing forward, like the back teeth are rotating about an axis which is right between the two front teeth. And that would push the cheeks forward? But isn't that how a 2-piece Lefort works, and that doesn't move the cheeks, as far as I know?

 

[longjohnmong]

Because an evenly split expansion of the palate will give you an uncanny and unaesthetic maxilla. It expands the front of the palate too much which widens the pyriform aperture unnaturally and gives you a monkey nose. Let's look at the conebeams of some MSE patients, shall we?

Do you think it would be okay if the pyriform aperature is unusually narrow? And does mine look narrow?

Yes, lol at my subhuman orbitals.

 

[PURE ARYAN GENETICS]

the pyriform aperture becomes like a gaped asshole!!!

 

[Deleted member 23391]

I think he means because if you expand the back without expanding the front then the back has to swing forward, like the back teeth are rotating about an axis which is right between the two front teeth. And that would push the cheeks forward? But isn't that how a 2-piece Lefort works, and that doesn't move the cheeks, as far as I know?

That's exactly what I'm talking about, truth be told I don't think it would do all that much in terms of projection besides sort of rotate the openings if that makes sense, and I'm not sure how that would affect the soft tissues. I just imagined a maxilla rotating in my head the way that I described in the OP.

 

[AscendingHero]

I think he means because if you expand the back without expanding the front then the back has to swing forward, like the back teeth are rotating about an axis which is right between the two front teeth. And that would push the cheeks forward? But isn't that how a 2-piece Lefort works, and that doesn't move the cheeks, as far as I know?

I

That's exactly what I'm talking about, truth be told I don't think it would do all that much in terms of projection besides sort of rotate the openings if that makes sense, and I'm not sure how that would affect the soft tissues. I just imagined a maxilla rotating in my head the way that I described in the OP.

Interesting, i'd love to see a visual on this

You still need total maxillary widening , ICD width is crucial for smile aesthetics and good lips.


But PNS expansion>>>>ANS all day, a custom expander with some modifications would do.

 

[Deleted member 23391]

I

Interesting, i'd love to see a visual on this

You still need total maxillary widening , ICD width is crucial for smile aesthetics and good lips.


But PNS expansion>>>>ANS all day, a custom expander with some modifications would do.

And how do I even find someone to do this to me and implement my ideas? People in healthcare: doctors, orthodontists, dentists, etc are just too obstinate and it's quite difficult to find someone compliant. Often they just think you are crazy and refuse to speak to you further if you deviate too far from their field's consensus.