Why MSE sucks, and turns you into a definitionless ape (better MSE theory)

[AscendingHero]

And how do I even find someone to do this to me and implement my ideas? People in healthcare: doctors, orthodontists, dentists, etc are just too obstinate.

Let's chat in pms

 

[spark]

And how do I even find someone to do this to me and implement my ideas? People in healthcare: doctors, orthodontists, dentists, etc are just too obstinate and it's quite difficult to find someone compliant. Often they just think you are crazy and refuse to speak to you further if you deviate too far from their field's consensus.

You should ask Moon, Varela, Mahony, Lipkin. Basically any blackpilled ortho. If any of them do online consultations that's a bingo. Afaik they don't really answer instagram dms. Best bet is to post underneath some of their IG posts.

 

[Deleted member 23391]

You should ask Moon, Varela, Mahony, Lipkin. Basically any blackpilled ortho. If any of them do online consultations that's a bingo. Afaik they don't really answer instagram dms. Best bet is to post underneath some of their IG posts.

Thoughts on Ting and Newaz?

 

[spark]

Thoughts on Ting and Newaz?

They both seem like experts. I know Ronald has been recommending them. Having any of them respond to what you wrote in the OP would be interesting.

 

[ValhallaSoldier]

I don't understand half of this shit but gonna save anyways

 

[letsdoit]

I’m booked for my MSE consult but then I see stuff like this..
Someone just tell me what to do if I have an IMW of 31 mm, i’m not recessed even just bad sleep and nasal breathing

 

[ronald_98]

Your ortho has to work with a provider, because the expander has to be 3d printed using your CBCT scan. "Power Expander" and "DS Xpander" are two BAME devices, and I'm sure there are more.

PAAO and SFOT are corticotomies + braces, they cut into your gums and graft bone there a week before putting braces or Invisalign on you, which makes the orthodontic treatment up to 50% faster, more predictable, provides greater dental arch widening and with more stable results. This can be done by any ortho specialized in accelerated orthodontics.

This is a PAAO result, after 9 months (notice that she already had a decent palate but crowded dental arches):

Facebook

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Wider dental arches will give you wider and fuller lips due to muscle stretching and the better support provided by the wider arches btw:

Literally looks the same.

 

[letsdoit]

Literally looks the same.

Lol, you can’t be serious

 

[spark]

Literally looks the same.

they made her sit straight and put make up on her

orthos are the biggest scam artists out there

I mean of course her smile is better now but no skeletal changes whatsoever so not quite what the OP was looking for

 

[Deleted member 23558]

well written thread but men dont need wide palates, its not worth it there are more imp things to focus on. No one gives a fuck about smile. an incel with a good smile = incel chad with good smile = chad. chad with average smile = still chad.

 

[Deleted member 23391]

Lol, you can’t be serious

Why not? No actual changes to the midface like I'm talking about.

 

[canon5d]

The problem with the idea of hyper expanding the posterior region is that you're limited by the lower jaw. There's an amount of lining up that can be done by tipping the teeth but that leeway can be used up even by a moderate expansion depending on the person. If you're expanding a palate that is already as wide as the lower arch, you don't want mega expansion of any kind. Expansion of the lower jaw is very hard to come by (two providers in the world I think) and even that is particularly limited toward the rear of the lower jaw because that where the condyles are: they don't like being messed with.

 

[Deleted member 29155]

Because an evenly split expansion of the palate will give you an uncanny and unaesthetic maxilla. It expands the front of the palate too much which widens the pyriform aperture unnaturally and gives you a monkey nose. Let's look at the conebeams of some MSE patients, shall we?

View attachment 2169928
View attachment 2169929
View attachment 2169930
View attachment 2169934

These do not look like normal skulls, the pyriform aperture becomes like a gaped asshole!!!


A naturally wide palate is not as wide towards the front which is why I prepared this illustration:

View attachment 2169959
Ignore the position of the teeth and look at the actual bone. The MSE expands too much near the anterior nasal spine which is not how a naturally wide and well-developed palate is. This causes the aperture to widen and for the cheekbones to not get pushed forward much if at all. To get a naturally looking harmonious result you would need to expand more near the POSTERIOR NASAL SPINE than MSE. The problem is that you need something more like THIS:

View attachment 2169970

This modified MSE would also be superior because it would push the cheekbones FORWARD more rather than just widening them and would push the pyriform aperture OUTWARD but not widen it, leading to better paranasal support. You'd need 2 expanders placed, one at the front of the mouth, and one at the back, or an expander which flanged and rotated outward.

My nose is extremely thin anyways, so I'd benefit by getting MSE

 

[spark]

The problem with the idea of hyper expanding the posterior region is that you're limited by the lower jaw. There's an amount of lining up that can be done by tipping the teeth but that leeway can be used up even by a moderate expansion depending on the person. If you're expanding a palate that is already as wide as the lower arch, you don't want mega expansion of any kind. Expansion of the lower jaw is very hard to come by (two providers in the world I think) and even that is particularly limited toward the rear of the lower jaw because that where the condyles are: they don't like being messed with.

IMDO/BSSO for the lower. Even BSSO can widen the lower jaw. Of course that's only for small mandibles but let's be honest, people who need expansion are not likely to have properly grown mandibles anyways.

 

[spark]

Because an evenly split expansion of the palate will give you an uncanny and unaesthetic maxilla. It expands the front of the palate too much which widens the pyriform aperture unnaturally and gives you a monkey nose. Let's look at the conebeams of some MSE patients, shall we?

View attachment 2169928
View attachment 2169929
View attachment 2169930
View attachment 2169934

These do not look like normal skulls, the pyriform aperture becomes like a gaped asshole!!!


A naturally wide palate is not as wide towards the front which is why I prepared this illustration:

View attachment 2169959
Ignore the position of the teeth and look at the actual bone. The MSE expands too much near the anterior nasal spine which is not how a naturally wide and well-developed palate is. This causes the aperture to widen and for the cheekbones to not get pushed forward much if at all. To get a naturally looking harmonious result you would need to expand more near the POSTERIOR NASAL SPINE than MSE. The problem is that you need something more like THIS:

View attachment 2169970

This modified MSE would also be superior because it would push the cheekbones FORWARD more rather than just widening them and would push the pyriform aperture OUTWARD but not widen it, leading to better paranasal support. You'd need 2 expanders placed, one at the front of the mouth, and one at the back, or an expander which flanged and rotated outward.

By the way such appliance shouldn't even be difficult to construct imo. Just make the front two TADs separate by a distance of let's say one half of what the posterior TADs would. Or maybe I am not getting something? I could understand that maybe in order to get an even split you want even force but with a piezo knife that shouldn't be an issue anymore.

 

[Deleted member 23391]

The problem with the idea of hyper expanding the posterior region is that you're limited by the lower jaw. There's an amount of lining up that can be done by tipping the teeth but that leeway can be used up even by a moderate expansion depending on the person. If you're expanding a palate that is already as wide as the lower arch, you don't want mega expansion of any kind. Expansion of the lower jaw is very hard to come by (two providers in the world I think) and even that is particularly limited toward the rear of the lower jaw because that where the condyles are: they don't like being messed with.

obviously, you would need transverse maxillary deficiency or need to undergo IMDO after

 

[ricetard]

lifefuel for maxillacels like me

 

[Deleted member 23391]

There are still people coping with MSE LOL. It's a meme that will only chimpmaxx you unless you do a few mm (for breathing benefits, no aesthetic ones to be found).

 

[robertjamesfischer]

There are still people coping with MSE LOL. It's a meme that will only chimpmaxx you unless you do a few mm (for breathing benefits, no aesthetic ones to be found).

View attachment 2518419

Ok, but if people really have a transversal deficiency in the maxilla, what is the best way to expand it for breathing benefits without harming the aesthetics? A new device called FME has just come out, and it apparently expands 1:1 anterior and posterior, which could make it the best expander in history. What are your thoughts on it?

 

[Deleted member 23391]

Ok, but if people really have a transversal deficiency in the maxilla, what is the best way to expand it for breathing benefits without harming the aesthetics? A new device called FME has just come out, and it apparently expands 1:1 anterior and posterior, which could make it the best expander in history. What are your thoughts on it?

Why would that make it better? Better than a bias towards the anterior nasal spine, yes. Inferior to a bias towards the posterior nasal spine. 1:1 expansion is STILL unnatural and results in an extremely wide pyriform aperture - it's as if you didn't read my post or look at the photos.

Ideally the expansion would be like so:

 

[Deleted member 30349]

Bookmarked!

 

[mvp2v1]

This modified MSE would also be superior because it would push the cheekbones FORWARD

anyone tried the new MSE? any results to discuss?

 

[mvp2v1]

And how do I even find someone to do this to me and implement my ideas? People in healthcare: doctors, orthodontists, dentists, etc are just too obstinate and it's quite difficult to find someone compliant. Often they just think you are crazy and refuse to speak to you further if you deviate too far from their field's consensus.

this has been my struggle as well. I have not come across anyone with a competent solution to deep bites. Deep bites are complicated as they are very often a mix of many different things happening all at once (differences in incisor, molar heights. misaligned maxilla x mandible, and strunted mandible growth). If you start saying too much you are instantly written off as a problem patient and get no further replies to communication lol. So I have learned to be sly and pussyfoot around these fags. so unfortunate.

 

[hisoka777]

this has been my struggle as well. I have not come across anyone with a competent solution to deep bites. Deep bites are complicated as they are very often a mix of many different things happening all at once (differences in incisor, molar heights. misaligned maxilla x mandible, and strunted mandible growth). If you start saying too much you are instantly written off as a problem patient and get no further replies to communication lol. So I have learned to be sly and pussyfoot around these fags. so unfortunate.

have you heard about a neuromuscular orthotic? It repositions your jaw to its correct position in about 6-8 months. After that you generally use mse for expansion for the upper jaw

 

[Deleted member 32514]

Because an evenly split expansion of the palate will give you an uncanny and unaesthetic maxilla. It expands the front of the palate too much which widens the pyriform aperture unnaturally and gives you a monkey nose. Let's look at the conebeams of some MSE patients, shall we?

View attachment 2169928
View attachment 2169929
View attachment 2169930
View attachment 2169934

These do not look like normal skulls, the pyriform aperture becomes like a gaped asshole!!!


A naturally wide palate is not as wide towards the front which is why I prepared this illustration:

View attachment 2169959
Ignore the position of the teeth and look at the actual bone. The MSE expands too much near the anterior nasal spine which is not how a naturally wide and well-developed palate is. This causes the aperture to widen and for the cheekbones to not get pushed forward much if at all. To get a naturally looking harmonious result you would need to expand more near the POSTERIOR NASAL SPINE than MSE. The problem is that you need something more like THIS:

View attachment 2169970

This modified MSE would also be superior because it would push the cheekbones FORWARD more rather than just widening them and would push the pyriform aperture OUTWARD but not widen it, leading to better paranasal support. You'd need 2 expanders placed, one at the front of the mouth, and one at the back, or an expander which flanged and rotated outward.

Ngl high IQ af

 

[mvp2v1]

have you heard about a neuromuscular orthotic? It repositions your jaw to its correct position in about 6-8 months. After that you generally use mse for expansion for the upper jaw

you mean a splint? its normie cope.

 

[hisoka777]

you mean a splint? its normie cope.

nope its way different than a splint.
Its custom made for your jaw to match the bite and worn all day and night.

 

[mvp2v1]

nope its way different than a splint.
Its custom made for your jaw to match the bite and worn all day and night.

“Jaw to match the bite”

1. Do I have to wear it forever?
1.1 If I don’t need retainment of any sort, will my teeth in in butterfly bite after using it?

I tried searching it online and everything I saw just made it look like typical splint therapy.

 

[hisoka777]

nope its way different than a splint.
Its custom made for your jaw to match the bite bringing the lower forward.

“Jaw to match the bite”

1. Do I have to wear it forever?
1.1 If I don’t need retainment of any sort, will my teeth in in butterfly bite after using it?

I tried searching it online and everything I saw just made it look like typical splint therapy.

hope this helps. Watch from 28:54

 

[mvp2v1]

hope this helps. Watch from 28:54

ah thats an interesting approach. Basically its splint therapy but then you change the vertical of the teeth to match the splints bite position. Im guessing this increases the height of the lower third, which in deepbite cases can be a good thing. All thats missing from this docs approach is increasing tongue space and fixing oral posture.

I think instead of doing this one could just do palate expansion then do invisalign to extrude teeth. something like this.

 

[hisoka777]

ah thats an interesting approach. Basically its splint therapy but then you change the vertical of the teeth to match the splints bite position. Im guessing this increases the height of the lower third, which in deepbite cases can be a good thing. All thats missing from this docs approach is increasing tongue space and fixing oral posture.

I think instead of doing this one could just do palate expansion then do invisalign to extrude teeth. something like this.

actually im undergoing treatment under him(He is part of one phase). he will expand via mse after this and probably a tongue tie release plus myofunctional therapy. So there you go.

 

[hisoka777]

ah thats an interesting approach. Basically its splint therapy but then you change the vertical of the teeth to match the splints bite position. Im guessing this increases the height of the lower third, which in deepbite cases can be a good thing. All thats missing from this docs approach is increasing tongue space and fixing oral posture.

I think instead of doing this one could just do palate expansion then do invisalign to extrude teeth. something like this.

you got this right. Im a deepbite case only lol so very beneficial for me

 

[mvp2v1]

actually im undergoing treatment under him(He is part of one phase). he will expand via mse after this and probably a tongue tie release plus myofunctional therapy. So there you go.

Nice. Sounds like one of the better treatment protocols I have seen. Before going in did you have a cross bite? (Where your mandible was notably smaller than the upper?

Also where are you getting this treatment (country)?

 

[Meister!]

Rip what?
It's an improvement (like going from 1 PSL to 1.5 PSL) but that's too little expansion. The one I posted expanded 16mm, and can even go to 18mm.
Lmao at getting off the shelf MSE expander that barely gets you 10mm in a best case scenario when you can get a custom made one for the same price that goes up to 18mm.

RIP MSE if anything.

If you're getting 18mm of expansion how is your lower jaw expanded to fit the new expanded upper jaw?

 

[hisoka777]

Nice. Sounds like one of the better treatment protocols I have seen. Before going in did you have a cross bite? (Where your mandible was notably smaller than the upper?

Also where are you getting this treatment (country)?

I have crossbite yes. Im getting this in India. I can you tell you more about this if you want.

 

[mvp2v1]

I have crossbite yes. Im getting this in India. I can you tell you more about this if you want.

It seems people with deep bites (especially when the deep bite developed during adolescence) also have stunted mandible growth. IMDO or something similar is nessasary imo. To do a good job of “growing” it. Unfortunately it obv does not grow it in 3dkmentions which is what we truly need.

 

[hisoka777]

I have crossbite on one side yes. Im getting this in India. I can you tell you more about this if you want.

It seems people with deep bites (especially when the deep bite developed during adolescence) also have stunted mandible growth. IMDO or something similar is nessasary imo. To do a good job of “growing” it. Unfortunately it obv does not grow it in 3dkmentions which is what we truly need.

you hit the spot . i would love IMDO or something similar but no one does it here.

 

[Saint Casanova]

Because an evenly split expansion of the palate will give you an uncanny and unaesthetic maxilla. It expands the front of the palate too much which widens the pyriform aperture unnaturally and gives you a monkey nose. Let's look at the conebeams of some MSE patients, shall we?

View attachment 2169928
View attachment 2169929
View attachment 2169930
View attachment 2169934

These do not look like normal skulls, the pyriform aperture becomes like a gaped asshole!!!


A naturally wide palate is not as wide towards the front which is why I prepared this illustration:

View attachment 2169959
Ignore the position of the teeth and look at the actual bone. The MSE expands too much near the anterior nasal spine which is not how a naturally wide and well-developed palate is. This causes the aperture to widen and for the cheekbones to not get pushed forward much if at all. To get a naturally looking harmonious result you would need to expand more near the POSTERIOR NASAL SPINE than MSE. The problem is that you need something more like THIS:

View attachment 2169970

This modified MSE would also be superior because it would push the cheekbones FORWARD more rather than just widening them and would push the pyriform aperture OUTWARD but not widen it, leading to better paranasal support. You'd need 2 expanders placed, one at the front of the mouth, and one at the back, or an expander which flanged and rotated outward.

@pessimistic
Do you think any orthos or docs do a modified mse like you suggested ?

 

[okwiwhd]

Because an evenly split expansion of the palate will give you an uncanny and unaesthetic maxilla. It expands the front of the palate too much which widens the pyriform aperture unnaturally and gives you a monkey nose. Let's look at the conebeams of some MSE patients, shall we?

View attachment 2169928
View attachment 2169929
View attachment 2169930
View attachment 2169934

These do not look like normal skulls, the pyriform aperture becomes like a gaped asshole!!!


A naturally wide palate is not as wide towards the front which is why I prepared this illustration:

View attachment 2169959
Ignore the position of the teeth and look at the actual bone. The MSE expands too much near the anterior nasal spine which is not how a naturally wide and well-developed palate is. This causes the aperture to widen and for the cheekbones to not get pushed forward much if at all. To get a naturally looking harmonious result you would need to expand more near the POSTERIOR NASAL SPINE than MSE. The problem is that you need something more like THIS:

View attachment 2169970

This modified MSE would also be superior because it would push the cheekbones FORWARD more rather than just widening them and would push the pyriform aperture OUTWARD but not widen it, leading to better paranasal support. You'd need 2 expanders placed, one at the front of the mouth, and one at the back, or an expander which flanged and rotated outward.

I think it’s terrible how it widens the nose

 

[Deleted member 23391]

@pessimistic
Do you think any orthos or docs do a modified mse like you suggested ?

I saw one or two examples of getting this "wider at the back" expansion pattern but it seemed to be accidental rather than something they were specifically going for

 

[Saint Casanova]

I saw one or two examples of getting this "wider at the back" expansion pattern but it seemed to be accidental rather than something they were specifically going for

I Need to find an open minded ortho

 

[mvp2v1]

I saw one or two examples of getting this "wider at the back" expansion pattern but it seemed to be accidental rather than something they were specifically going for

Did the aesthetics look better?

 

[Deleted member 23391]

Did the aesthetics look better?

I didn't see any actual before and after photos, just CT scans

 

[Deleted member 23558]

Banger thread ever on godforsaken site

 

[Deleted member 23391]

Crazy how I destroyed this entire MSE jawhacks/mewer cope community of orthodontists shilling this retarded looksmin and the teenagers who worship them with only one single post filled with my brilliant genius. I just imagined the nasal aperture expanding in my head using my off the charts visuospatial IQ, and that's all it took to end MSE "for aesthetics" and put it in the history books. Amazing.

 

[Deleted member 23391]

ancient gigachad skull still has a smaller nasal aperture than MSE chimps

Best case MSE is an "even" split, still unaesthetic, still unnatural compared to the actual growth of the palate, which is wider at the back and tapers. Even using palatal expanders in children with much more malleable bones often looks like shit and gives them retarded looking bell pepper noses. A normal dental arch is an ARCH. MSE will, best case (the prized 1:1 expansion), give you a more trapezoidal shape @ccwarrior

Your facial development is over. You're not going to get a lefort 3 by getting mse/custom mse/fme and jelqing your midface forward with bollard plates or the facemask, the facebow, whatever. Even if you break the sutures attaching the maxilla/zygoma/frontal bone, you are limited by the pterygoid plate, and that's a hard limit even if you could (and will, if you do break the sutures) get some movement of the upper midface. If you get protraction it will be minimal and with the compromise of blowing out your nasal aperture. And how do you know those sutures will even break, and how will it be done reliably, symmetrically, etc? Settle, accept it's over, grieve with the reality of your situation, then get bimax with a segmental lefort 1 and maybe a midface implant and infras if you're still unhappy with how your trash orbitals and midface look recessed. Or go crazy, accept no compromises, accept the risks, and get a lefort 3 with @RealSurgerymax

If you need palatal expansion, segmental lefort 1. Current expanders will make you look worse. Until there are expanders that expand more at the posterior nasal spine than the anterior nasal spine (as in my idea that I have outlined in this thread) all these expanders will be is a looksmin in adults and even teenagers.

If you're a teen, stop reading mewing copes, get crypto, then blast HGH and test and hope it saves your birdcel bones and puts some mass on your cheekbones and mandible while your face is still developing so the rest of your face doesn't look as retarded when you get LF1 later. If you're done growing, cope with implants or say fuck it and somehow get LF2/LF3. And thank me for so graciously saving your face unlike mike mew, mewcels, reddit, and orthos that all lied to you.

Maybe someday we'll have the perfect robotic surgery that cuts all the sutures in your face minimally invasively so you can easily distract with a protraction device for serious results. As far as devices, I would be surprised if a device that's just anchored to your palate like a typical MSE would be able to do that. By the time something like that comes out that sidesteps these limitations, you'll be an oldcel.

It would be like a 5'4 manlet several decades ago wanting LL and waiting until he's 40 for the internal fixator to be invented. You have to deal with the reality of your options instead of dreaming about fantastical solutions and as a result falling for inferior ones.

If you really want the airway benefits because you're so subhuman you constantly gasp for breath due to your tiny airway, do a couple mm max before it rapes your entire midface aesthetically.

If there is way to reliably expand more posteriorly, it's more worth consideration. Less of an aesthetic hit and better for expanding the nasopharynx. Hopefully something like this will come soon, then some of my criticism is nullified (not the part about protraction though) as it would be good for nasal breathing, occlusion, and perhaps slightly gaining some cheekbone definition. But even so, the aesthetic benefits would be rather minimal. However, if enough people ask for it, I think there could be a market for it.

 

[Deleted member 23558]

Crazy how I destroyed this entire MSE jawhacks/mewer cope community of orthodontists shilling this retarded looksmin and the teenagers who worship them with only one single post filled with my brilliant genius. I just imagined the nasal aperture expanding in my head using my off the charts visuospatial IQ, and that's all it took to end MSE "for aesthetics" and put it in the history books. Amazing.

Sort of a midwit user but still better threads than most

 

[mvp2v1]

ancient gigachad skull still has a smaller nasal aperture than MSE chimps

View attachment 2634431

Best case MSE is an "even" split, still unaesthetic, still unnatural compared to the actual growth of the palate, which is wider at the back and tapers. Even using palatal expanders in children with much more malleable bones often looks like shit and gives them retarded looking bell pepper noses. A normal dental arch is an ARCH. MSE will, best case (the prized 1:1 expansion), give you a more trapezoidal shape @ccwarrior

View attachment 2634442
Your facial development is over. You're not going to get a lefort 3 by getting mse/custom mse/fme and jelqing your midface forward with bollard plates or the facemask, the facebow, whatever. Even if you break the sutures attaching the maxilla/zygoma/frontal bone, you are limited by the pterygoid plate, and that's a hard limit even if you could (and will, if you do break the sutures) get some movement of the upper midface. If you get protraction it will be minimal and with the compromise of blowing out your nasal aperture. And how do you know those sutures will even break, and how will it be done reliably, symmetrically, etc? Settle, accept it's over, grieve with the reality of your situation, then get bimax with a segmental lefort 1 and maybe a midface implant and infras if you're still unhappy with how your trash orbitals and midface look recessed. Or go crazy, accept no compromises, accept the risks, and get a lefort 3 with @RealSurgerymax

If you need palatal expansion, segmental lefort 1. Current expanders will make you look worse. Until there are expanders that expand more at the posterior nasal spine than the anterior nasal spine (as in my idea that I have outlined in this thread) all these expanders will be is a looksmin in adults and even teenagers.

If you're a teen, stop reading mewing copes, get crypto, then blast HGH and test and hope it saves your birdcel bones and puts some mass on your cheekbones and mandible while your face is still developing so the rest of your face doesn't look as retarded when you get LF1 later. If you're done growing, cope with implants or say fuck it and somehow get LF2/LF3. And thank me for so graciously saving your face unlike mike mew, mewcels, reddit, and orthos that all lied to you.

Maybe someday we'll have the perfect robotic surgery that cuts all the sutures in your face minimally invasively so you can easily distract with a protraction device for serious results. As far as devices, I would be surprised if a device that's just anchored to your palate like a typical MSE would be able to do that. By the time something like that comes out that sidesteps these limitations, you'll be an oldcel.

It would be like a 5'4 manlet several decades ago wanting LL and waiting until he's 40 for the internal fixator to be invented. You have to deal with the reality of your options instead of dreaming about fantastical solutions and as a result falling for inferior ones.

If you really want the airway benefits because you're so subhuman you constantly gasp for breath due to your tiny airway, do a couple mm max before it rapes your entire midface aesthetically.

If there is way to reliably expand more posteriorly, it's more worth consideration. Less of an aesthetic hit and better for expanding the nasopharynx. Hopefully something like this will come soon, then some of my criticism is nullified (not the part about protraction though) as it would be good for nasal breathing, occlusion, and perhaps slightly gaining some cheekbone definition. But even so, the aesthetic benefits would be rather minimal. However, if enough people ask for it, I think there could be a market for it.

I’m pretty sure there is some research about this have you investigated it?

 

[SeriousAscension]

Its laborious and expensive but nonetheless could give you what you are looking for @pessimistic

Expanding with FME which seems to be promising for a parallel expansion but with subnasale lefort 1 cuts. Assuming expansion went successful; you got the diastema from the midpalatle suture, then you surgically reduce the diasthema by removing bone. After braces this should in the end give you a look that anteriorly it looks smaller than posteriorly.

 

[Deleted member 32196]

ancient gigachad skull still has a smaller nasal aperture than MSE chimps

View attachment 2634431

Best case MSE is an "even" split, still unaesthetic, still unnatural compared to the actual growth of the palate, which is wider at the back and tapers. Even using palatal expanders in children with much more malleable bones often looks like shit and gives them retarded looking bell pepper noses. A normal dental arch is an ARCH. MSE will, best case (the prized 1:1 expansion), give you a more trapezoidal shape @ccwarrior

View attachment 2634442
Your facial development is over. You're not going to get a lefort 3 by getting mse/custom mse/fme and jelqing your midface forward with bollard plates or the facemask, the facebow, whatever. Even if you break the sutures attaching the maxilla/zygoma/frontal bone, you are limited by the pterygoid plate, and that's a hard limit even if you could (and will, if you do break the sutures) get some movement of the upper midface. If you get protraction it will be minimal and with the compromise of blowing out your nasal aperture. And how do you know those sutures will even break, and how will it be done reliably, symmetrically, etc? Settle, accept it's over, grieve with the reality of your situation, then get bimax with a segmental lefort 1 and maybe a midface implant and infras if you're still unhappy with how your trash orbitals and midface look recessed. Or go crazy, accept no compromises, accept the risks, and get a lefort 3 with @RealSurgerymax

If you need palatal expansion, segmental lefort 1. Current expanders will make you look worse. Until there are expanders that expand more at the posterior nasal spine than the anterior nasal spine (as in my idea that I have outlined in this thread) all these expanders will be is a looksmin in adults and even teenagers.

If you're a teen, stop reading mewing copes, get crypto, then blast HGH and test and hope it saves your birdcel bones and puts some mass on your cheekbones and mandible while your face is still developing so the rest of your face doesn't look as retarded when you get LF1 later. If you're done growing, cope with implants or say fuck it and somehow get LF2/LF3. And thank me for so graciously saving your face unlike mike mew, mewcels, reddit, and orthos that all lied to you.

Maybe someday we'll have the perfect robotic surgery that cuts all the sutures in your face minimally invasively so you can easily distract with a protraction device for serious results. As far as devices, I would be surprised if a device that's just anchored to your palate like a typical MSE would be able to do that. By the time something like that comes out that sidesteps these limitations, you'll be an oldcel.

It would be like a 5'4 manlet several decades ago wanting LL and waiting until he's 40 for the internal fixator to be invented. You have to deal with the reality of your options instead of dreaming about fantastical solutions and as a result falling for inferior ones.

If you really want the airway benefits because you're so subhuman you constantly gasp for breath due to your tiny airway, do a couple mm max before it rapes your entire midface aesthetically.

If there is way to reliably expand more posteriorly, it's more worth consideration. Less of an aesthetic hit and better for expanding the nasopharynx. Hopefully something like this will come soon, then some of my criticism is nullified (not the part about protraction though) as it would be good for nasal breathing, occlusion, and perhaps slightly gaining some cheekbone definition. But even so, the aesthetic benefits would be rather minimal. However, if enough people ask for it, I think there could be a market for it.

Drawbacks of segmental lefort?