Guide Collagen Maxxing: The Evidence-Based Guide

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ToursOverBoyo2020

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Should I use Pycnogenol orally or topically? Any product recommendations with pycnogenol?
 
the next o'pry

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B @benignice i know you’re not an expert about collagen, but i would like to know your thoughts and how reliable his sources are Bro
 
aphoria

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Cope said:
tl;dr magnesium, zinc, iron, vitamin C are necessary co-factors.

Ok, but should you spend money on these supplements or do we have enough of them? How much of cope is oral vitamin C?

Cope said:
tl;dr astaxanthin, collagen peptides, and pycnogenol (OPCs).

Collagen peptides are controversial on this site (Also I didn't notice that you would cite any studies on them):

DrTony said:
No it does not. Complete scam from the unethical supplement industry. Prescription Retin-A is legit if your skin is not sensitive with actual studies backing it up.
 
elfmaxx

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Make a thread on minimizing facial volume loss next if you're up to it. There's not a lot of info on this, most of the normies have complete tunnel vision on collagen when facial volume is just as important.

I would guess that growth hormone and k2 are important.
 
Cope

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aphoria said:
Ok, but should you spend money on these supplements or do we have enough of them? How much of cope is oral vitamin C?



Collagen peptides are controversial on this site (Also I didn't notice that you would cite any studies on them):
You can get these nutrients from a sufficient diet but there's no harm in taking a multi (Throne Basic Nutrients).

I did site the use of collagen peptide, and since they contain all the amino acids necessary for creating a collagen fibril I don't see why you shouldn't take them. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4390761/

elfmaxx said:
Make a thread on minimizing facial volume loss next if you're up to it. There's not a lot of info on this, most of the normies have complete tunnel vision on collagen when facial volume is just as important.

I would guess that growth hormone and k2 are important.
Yea, having subcutaneous fat is important, most users just conclude that someone is muh low collagen when all it is is lack of subq facial fat.
 
RAITEIII

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Bewusst said:
Vitamin C, oral, can make a HUGE difference in skin smoothness and texture (if taken correctly). It‘s rarely reduced collagen synthesis which is the problem at our ages. Start ingesting ascorbic acid at 1,000-2,000 mg doses spaced throughout the day with a total daily intake of ~75% of your bowel tolerance and eat some gelatin (glycine, proline) and unprocessed sugar cane syrup (iron) every day. Be warned tho that repairing your skin and soft tissues might cause some „youthful puffing up“ of your face/more fullness.
I saw nothing from vitamin c tbh
 
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Cope said:
You can get these nutrients from a sufficient diet but there's no harm in taking a multi (Throne Basic Nutrients).

I did site the use of collagen peptide, and since they contain all the amino acids necessary for creating a collagen fibril I don't see why you shouldn't take them. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4390761/


Yea, having subcutaneous fat is important, most users just conclude that someone is muh low collagen when all it is is lack of subq facial fat.

I notice a difference in sleep quality when supplementing zinc 25mg and magnesium 200mg (elemental). You sure Thorne is enough? And its vitamin c amount is pitiful.
 
Cope

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Merlix said:
I notice a difference in sleep quality when supplementing zinc 25mg and magnesium 200mg (elemental). You sure Thorne is enough? And its vitamin c amount is pitiful.
It's a foundational supplement, you don't need high doses to ensure that the body follows the right pathways. I still take vitamin C, zinc, and magnesium separately.
 
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Cope said:
It's a foundational supplement, you don't need high doses to ensure that the body follows the right pathways. I still take vitamin C, zinc, and magnesium separately.

I do the same, plus AOR vitamin b complex (has most bioavailavle ingredients) which, at that point, sort of makes the multi pointless.
 
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Merlix said:
I do the same, plus AOR vitamin b complex (has most bioavailavle ingredients) which, at that point, sort of makes the multi pointless.
Yea, no point in supplementing both. Do you notice any mood benefits from it? I'm working on a neurotransmittermaxxing thread and supplementing B vitamins in the correct form are part of the foundation.
 
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Cope said:
Yea, no point in supplementing both. Do you notice any mood benefits from it? I'm working on a neurotransmittermaxxing thread and supplementing B vitamins in the correct form are part of the foundation.

Not sure. Only been taking for a few weeks.
 
NVRH

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Nice thread.

What's your take on :

- Preservatives, especially Phenoxyethanol ?
- Dermarolling

Cope said:
It's an "occlusive emollient" which prevents TEWL. I've used it in the past but it's not very effective. I recommend you use something with ceramides. Stratia Liquid Gold is the ideal moisturizer which I will go over in a future thread.

I find Squalane works best mixed / layered with moisturizer. Ofc, it's far from being as occlusive as petrolatum but it's way less greasy and... it's not fkin petroleum jelly.
 
aphoria

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Cope said:
I did site the use of collagen peptide, and since they contain all the amino acids necessary for creating a collagen fibril I don't see why you shouldn't take them. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4390761/

I can give you possible reason: waste of money. It is just protein which you need not take if your diet is reasonable.


 
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aphoria said:
I can give you possible reason: waste of money. It is just protein which you need not take if your diet is reasonable.



My understanding is that even with a good diet you can still utilise the extra amino acids in collagen powder.
 
DrunkenSailor

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Good thread, deservedly in BoB section despite me having no idea what you said in 80% of your post but it looks high IQ so.

Currently I’ve been on Retin-A 0.025% for about 3 months or so, I’m applying it every night now and refilled the stock with two more tubes of 0.05% strength. If I am not mistaken, there’s not much of a difference between 0.025% and the upper strengths when it comes to anti aging but I wanted to make sure my random pimples also fuck off while on Retin-A.

Improvements? Hard to say but I don’t think so. I’m still waiting to see what’s up with my skin around September, if my forehead wrinkles are improved and pimples are gone. Anyway, Retin-A benefits are more considerable on long term so the goal here is to look 25/26 in my mid 30s (and that is if I can keep my hair too).

Aside from Retin-A, cleanser and moisturizer I use Vitamin C 20+% + HA spheres recommended by B @benignice in his own skin care thread. I’m also using a top tier sunscreen with UVA and UVB protection.

Aside from this I don’t know what else to add. Eating well and exercising are kinda lacking for me due to shit job that requires staying indoors and lacking motivation afterwards.
 
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Cope

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aphoria said:
I can give you possible reason: waste of money. It is just protein which you need not take if your diet is reasonable.


You're not wrong, but the amino acid profile in say steak or chicken isn't going to that same amount of Glycine as hydrolyzed collagen.


The primary amino acid sequence of collagen is mostly glycine. I'm not saying collagen peptides are completely necessary, in fact they're probably one of the least important supplements I listed in the OP. High glycine concentration increases collagen synthesis by articular chondrocytes in vitro, and the best/easiest way of obtaining this is simply through hydrolyzed collagen or bone broth.
 
Cope

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NVRH said:
Nice thread.

What's your take on :

- Preservatives, especially Phenoxyethanol ?
- Dermarolling



I find Squalane works best mixed / layered with moisturizer. Ofc, it's far from being as occlusive as petrolatum but it's way less greasy and... it's not fkin petroleum jelly.
Petrolatum is annoying, but it's probably the best affordable sleeping mask after applying tretinoin.

DrunkenSailor said:
Good thread, deservedly in BoB section despite me having no idea what you said in 80% of your post but it looks high IQ so.

Currently I’ve been on Retin-A 0.025% for about 3 months or so, I’m applying it every night now and refilled the stock with two more tubes of 0.05% strength. If I am not mistaken, there’s not much of a difference between 0.025% and the upper strengths when it comes to anti aging but I wanted to make sure my random pimples also fuck off while on Retin-A.

Improvements? Hard to say but I don’t think so. I’m still waiting to see what’s up with my skin around September, if my forehead wrinkles are improved and pimples are gone. Anyway, Retin-A benefits are more considerable on long term so the goal here is to look 25/26 in my mid 30s (and that is if I can keep my hair too).

Aside from Retin-A, cleanser and moisturizer I use Vitamin C 20+% + HA spheres recommended by B @benignice in his own skin care thread. I’m also using a top tier sunscreen with UVA and UVB protection.

Aside from this I don’t know what else to add. Eating well and exercising are kinda lacking for me due to shit job that requires staying indoors and lacking motivation afterwards.
Both 0.025% and 0.1% have statistically equivalent long term anti-aging results, but I still plan on moving onto 0.1% in the near future.

The use of Vitamin C through HA spheres is not the best MoA, also that serum lacks both E and ferulic acid which you need.
 
CopeTilliRope

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Cope said:
Petrolatum is annoying, but it's probably the best affordable sleeping mask after applying tretinoin.


Both 0.025% and 0.1% have statistically equivalent long term anti-aging results, but I still plan on moving onto 0.1% in the near future.

The use of Vitamin C through HA spheres is not the best MoA, also that serum lacks both E and ferulic acid which you need.
great thread .

what do you think of that product? https://www.empowerpharmacy.com/drugs/anti-aging-vita-gel

i'm already using retin a 0.05% but don't like the vehicle they used in most prescription french tretinoin product so i want my derm to coumpound me a special formulation similar to this one so would love your take on this. is it suitable to combien vitamine C and retin a in the same product? would love to in order to gain some time thanks

btw you mentionned subcutaneous fat being more important than total amount of collagen in the skin , is that the type of fat being removed during buccal fat removal/ffacial lipectomy or do doctor only touch at the deep fat layer? or do they remove fat from both .

thanks and hopefully you'll take some of your time to answer me . good luck
 
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CopeTilliRope said:
great thread .

what do you think of that product? https://www.empowerpharmacy.com/drugs/anti-aging-vita-gel

i'm already using retin a 0.05% but don't like the vehicle they used in most prescription french tretinoin product so i want my derm to coumpound me a special formulation similar to this one so would love your take on this. is it suitable to combien vitamine C and retin a in the same product? would love to in order to gain some time thanks

btw you mentionned subcutaneous fat being more important than total amount of collagen in the skin , is that the type of fat being removed during buccal fat removal/ffacial lipectomy or do doctor only touch at the deep fat layer? or do they remove fat from both .

thanks and hopefully you'll take some of your time to answer me . good luck
I wouldn't combine them, the effectiveness of the products will be compromised if layered together and will increase skin irritation. But the combination of niacinamide should be fine.

Buccal fat removal should not remove subcutaneous fat if done correctly, but loss of subcutaneous fat occurs with natural aging so this procedure would most likely speed up this process. A lot of anecdotal reports on Real Self stated after getting the procedure done that it noticeably aged them but then again the reports I read were from mostly middle-aged women.
 
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Cope said:
I wouldn't combine them, the effectiveness of the products will be compromised if layered together and will increase skin irritation. But the combination of niacinamide should be fine.

Buccal fat removal should not remove subcutaneous fat if done correctly, but loss of subcutaneous fat occurs with natural aging so this procedure would most likely speed up this process. A lot of anecdotal reports on Real Self stated after getting the procedure done that it noticeably aged them but then again the reports I read were from mostly middle-aged women.
thank you so much for your answer , i'm trying to go or the more gaunt/ hollow look face possible so 'im having the procedure done anytime soon but do you know any way to increase subq fat?
 
Clark69

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Chintuck22 said:
Anyways, hope you get cancer bro.. This guide sucks and it's just thrown fundamental shit without any real practice. Hope you die and get your dick and throat cut off bitch. I would really love to see that happening 🖕
holy fuck man. what was up with this guy
 
NVRH

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CopeTilliRope said:
thank you so much for your answer , i'm trying to go or the more gaunt/ hollow look face possible so 'im having the procedure done anytime soon but do you know any way to increase subq fat?

Well I searched for cheek lipo and the results don't look like something unattainable with proper diet.

Cope @Cope Seeing you advice to use Stratia LG I thought it would be cool to link that reddit post about Ceramides.

The guy seems to know his shit and he even got someone from Stratia answering in the comments.
TLDR : most ceramide products are a scam, Skinceutical fkin 180$ 1.6 oz is undoubtedly legit, Stratia LG may be one the best cheap option for decent Ceramide products though the outcome of the chit chat between op and "stratia owner" isn't 100% satisfying.

ps : what's your take about dermarolling, again ?
 
BOTB

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hey man whens the routine coming out?
 
DrunkenSailor

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Cope said:
The use of Vitamin C through HA spheres is not the best MoA, also that serum lacks both E and ferulic acid which you need.
Then what should I use?
 
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MogTheMogger

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amazing thread man, thank you so much
 
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didn undrstand tbh
 
NothingCanStopMe

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I'll have to re-read this thread multiple times to fully grasp it jfl

Currently i only wash my face with water in the morning :feelsgood:
 
balding17yomanletcel

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all thess collagen shit is cope
 
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U can buy skin cream that contains baby foreskin, has anti aging elements. A ton of celebrities use it and maintain their youthful looks.




































 
kej3094

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Cope said:
Find yourself a Madecassoside cica product with all 4 centella triterpenoids/patented centella extracts, here are a couple:
- Sioris A Calming Day Ampoule - 2% Supercentella and 1% Centella Extract.
- Sidmool Cicaheals Cream - 0.9% TECA + 0.2% madecassoside
- Sidmool Good Spot Ointment - 1% TECA + 0.5% madecassoside
- Sidmool Centella Lip Essence - contains TECA + madecassoside (0.5% total)
- Sidmool Source Centella Powder - contains 1.5% TECA, 0.5% madecassoside
- Sidmool Centella Essential Gel, Sidmool Madagascar Centella line, Galaktoside line, Dr Troub Sebumzero Centella Powder - contain TECA +Madecassoside
- Sidmool Dr Troub Mild Toner and Zinc 25% Ampoule - TECA
- Sidmool Macenna 115 Ampoule - 1% Madecassoside + 1% TECA
- Skin&Lab Medicica line - contains all 4 triterpenoids.
- skin1004 Madagascar Centella ampoule - contains TECA

Or alternatively just get A'pieu Madecassoside Cica Gel (what I use)
you dont use tretinoin?? i literally saw it as the god remedy!? this forum hypes up something up so much only to destroy it 🤬
 
kej3094

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Gazzamogga said:
Just eat well, work out, do cardio, hydrate enough and use retin A and sunscreen
you need a hydrator cream
 
Good_Little_Goy

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kej3094 said:
you dont use tretinoin?? i literally saw it as the god remedy!? this forum hypes up something up so much only to destroy it 🤬
Tret is tret man
doesn’t matter what brand/product
 
apollothegun

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Rift678 said:
Cope @Cope have this thread deleted. Stop giving this info out to these worthless faggots of this forum. It’s straight greycels anyway.
nigga acts as if hes so above greycels, nigga u a bluecel
 
Cope

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Rift678 said:
Cope @Cope have this thread deleted. Stop giving this info out to these worthless faggots of this forum. It’s straight greycels anyway.
That's why I didn't list any products tbh

Might hold off on posting the routine thread cuz I keep getting bombarded with questions when it's pretty easy to find the right products with sites like incidecoder and cosdna.
 
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Cope said:
That's why I didn't list any products tbh

Might hold off on posting the routine thread cuz I keep getting bombarded with questions when it's pretty easy to find the right products with sites like incidecoder and cosdna.
Legit don't bother with it. Keep the info to yourself. check pm
 
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Cope said:
That's why I didn't list any products tbh

Might hold off on posting the routine thread cuz I keep getting bombarded with questions when it's pretty easy to find the right products with sites like incidecoder and cosdna.
Dn read
What product to use for cock gains
 
Deleted member 2756

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amazing thread. I fucking love you OP.
 
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Bewusst said:
Vitamin C, oral, can make a HUGE difference in skin smoothness and texture (if taken correctly). It‘s rarely reduced collagen synthesis which is the problem at our ages. Start ingesting ascorbic acid at 1,000-2,000 mg doses spaced throughout the day with a total daily intake of ~75% of your bowel tolerance and eat some gelatin (glycine, proline) and unprocessed sugar cane syrup (iron) every day. Be warned tho that repairing your skin and soft tissues might cause some „youthful puffing up“ of your face/more fullness.
how long to see results
 
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Cope said:
thanks man, it means a lot coming from you.
bought all the products you recommended thank you. You are doing Gods work
 
kej3094

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Cope said:
To fully optimize our skin's ability to promote collagen production, we need to understand the process of collagen synthesis on a fundamental level. When mRNA moves into the cytoplasm and interacts with ribosomes, both magnesium and zinc are needed for translation to occur. After translation, this polypeptide chain travels to the endoplasmic reticulum (ER). The polypeptide chain undergoes enzymatic modifications, including hydroxylation of proline and lysine which requires iron and vitamin C as cofactors (and oxygen). This process creates procollagen which is released from the fibroblast. The ends of the procollagen molecule are removed by peptidases and the molecule becomes tropocollagen. Tropocollagen undergoes covalent bonding through lysyl oxidase and this creates a collagen fibril. tl;dr magnesium, zinc, iron, vitamin C are necessary co-factors.

Now I know PSL autists are obsessed with carotenoids. Beta-carotene increases type I procollagen mRNA levels, but procollagen is a precursor and not collagen itself so this will not give us noticeable enough results. We need to upregulate gene expression in order to synthesize a functional product. Astaxanthin with hydrolyzed collagen upregulates type I procollagen gene expression and decreases MMP-1 and -12. MMP-1, the prototypical MMP, degrades collagen types 1 and 3. Polyphenols will take this a step further within the sub-class of proanthocyanidins. Specifically, pycnogenol stimulates type I collagen synthesis in subjects’ skin by increasing gene expression by 41%. tl;dr astaxanthin, collagen peptides, and pycnogenol (OPCs).

The main goal should be to find exogenous ways to stimulate type I collagen synthesis since it’s the most abundant collagen found in the skin, and it is the most significant one we lose as we age. Orthosilicic acid stimulates collagen type 1 synthesis and osteoblastic differentiation in human osteoblast-like cells. Processed panax ginseng, sun ginseng stimulates type I collagen by regulating MMP-1 and TIMP-1 expression in human dermal fibroblasts. 10-hydroxy-2-decenoic acid, a characteristic constituent of lipids from honeybee royal jelly extract, stimulates normal human dermal fibroblast cell lines and produce transforming growth factor(TGF) β1, a cytokine that stimulates collagen synthesis. Aloe vera is already mentioned on this forum, but the polysaccharide acemannan in aloe is what causes collagen biosynthesis. tl;dr orthosilicic acid (BioSil), red panax ginseng, honeybee royal jelly extract, and aloe vera.

There are other nutraceuticals, but all the oral supplements I listed are the most evidence-based to promote collagen production. When it comes to skincare, water is wet. But tretinoin increases type I and type III collagen as well as inhibits the expression of MMP-1, which I mentioned breaks down collagen. Topical vitamin C also stimulates type I and type III collagen synthesis. Vitamin C suppresses MMPs responsible for collagen degradation and increases the tissue inhibitor of MMPs, as well as mRNA levels of collagens I and III. Ferulic acid stabilizes solutions of vitamins C and E and doubles its photoprotection of skin so if you’re buying a vitamin C serum without it then it’s over for you. The vitamin C serum also must have a pH below 3.5 for effective penetration. Ascorbic acid serums must be at least 10% to be effective. The maximum amount of ascorbic acid penetration was seen at 20% with a pH of 3.2, so a vitamin C serum with this concentration will give you the best results. Topical 5% niacinamide may stimulate collagen synthesis and the epidermal proteins. Apparently niacinamide had no strong documented effect on collagen, but a study showed that niacinamide was able to increase dermal matrix collagen production. 20% Glycolic acid treatment also increases type I collagen mRNA and hyaluronic acid content of human skin. tl;dr 0.025%+ tretinoin, 20% vitamin c with e and ferulic acid, 5% niacinamide, 20% glycolic acid peels.

For cosmetic peptides, X @x30001 would often shill the use of GHK-cu since copper peptides do stimulate collagen synthesis by a noticeable percent. But if they’re overused, GHK-cu can cause more damage than good (can cause a crepey skin texture). So no need to use it yet since you’re all still teencels. Also there are better proven peptides for collagenmaxxing pursuits. Matrixyl 3000 (trademark for palmitoyl tripeptide-1 and palmitoyl tetrapeptide-7) stimulates type I collagen, fibronectin, and hyaluronic acid. The 8% concentration is the highest concentration proven to be effective in vivo. Matrixyl synthe'6 (trademark for palmitoyl tripeptide-38) stimulates type I, type III, and type IV collagen, as well as fibronectin and hyaluronic acid. The 2% concentration is the highest concentration proven to be effective in vivo. The original Matrixyl (trademark for palmitoyl pentapeptide-4) also stimulates collagen types I, III, and IV, as well as elastin and fibronectin. Tetrapeptide-21 and EGF (human oligopeptide-1) are also often sought after by the foid skincare community. tl;dr matrixyl, matrixyl 3000, matrixyl synthe'6, tetrapeptide-21, and egf.

Another skincare ingredient this site has never heard of is centella asiatica extract or madecassosides. Madecassosides stimulate type I collagen synthesis in human dermal fibroblast cells. Referring back to process of collagen synthesis, centella asiatica increased the metabolism of lysine and proline, the amino acids that I mentioned that build the collagen molecule. In addition, these compounds increased the synthesis of tropocollagen and mucopolysaccharide in the connective tissues. You need to find a cream with at least 0.1% madecassosides.

As a reminder for sunscreen, it needs to be SPF 50+ PA++++. UVA rays cause tanning, hyperpigmentation, fine lines and wrinkles, while UVB causes sunburn. SPF only rates UVB, while the PA system (or PPD) rates UVA. The sunscreen should consist of photostable UV filters too so ingredients like zinc oxide and titanium dioxide mog oxybenzone and benzophenone.

Use https://incidecoder.com/ if you need help finding specific ingredients, but this thread was just an overview for a future thread that will go over the routine.

Sources:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK507709/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4390761/
https://www.pycnogenol.com/fileadmi...chures/Pycnogenol_OralSkinCare_EN_161_WEB.pdf
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12633784/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3659568/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3583892/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11407971/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16185284/
https://kindofstephen.com/skin-penetration-of-ascorbic-acid/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2921764/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11359487/
http://www.smartskincare.com/treatments/topical/Matrixyl3000report.pdf
http://www.beautyandskin.co.nz/i/images/matrixylsynth6copy.pdf

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What zinc is best?
 
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clavicel

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Is it possible that collagen improving drugs like Tretinoin could prevent cellulite when applied to a girl's ass/thighs? Seems to me like a great idea for those who ascend and end up in an LTR
 

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