Guide Collagen Maxxing: The Evidence-Based Guide

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kej3094 said:
What zinc is best?
I get occasional acne from tretinoin, so I use zinc sulfate. Studies show that this is the best form for treating acne vulgaris. Supplementation of 600mg zinc sulphate daily (132mg elemental zinc) over the course of six months appears to be associated with a modest but significantly greater reduction in acne than does placebo. Of course, this is a large dose and I have found just taking 50mg (of elemental zinc) once or twice daily to be effective enough. But I had previously been using zinc picolinate for several months which also kept my acne at bay. Zinc gluconate is also effective, but the initial loading dose is not beneficial while oral zinc sulfate is reportedly more effective in the treatment of severe acne. The Gericare or Rugby brand of zinc sulfate would be my go-to since the brands that carry OptiZinc contain copper. YMMV, but as long as you're getting adequate amounts of elemental zinc you'll get results.
 
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Cope said:
The main goal should be to find exogenous ways to stimulate type I collagen synthesis since it’s the most abundant collagen found in the skin, and it is the most significant one we lose as we age. Orthosilicic acid stimulates collagen type 1 synthesis and osteoblastic differentiation in human osteoblast-like cells. Processed panax ginseng, sun ginseng stimulates type I collagen by regulating MMP-1 and TIMP-1 expression in human dermal fibroblasts. 10-hydroxy-2-decenoic acid, a characteristic constituent of lipids from honeybee royal jelly extract, stimulates normal human dermal fibroblast cell lines and produce transforming growth factor(TGF) β1, a cytokine that stimulates collagen synthesis. Aloe vera is already mentioned on this forum, but the polysaccharide acemannan in aloe is what causes collagen biosynthesis. tl;dr orthosilicic acid (BioSil), red panax ginseng, honeybee royal jelly extract, and aloe vera.

Specifically the Sun Ginseng extract was shown to stimulate type I collagen more so than red from the study. Does anyone have a source for this extract? I have searched Google but to no avail.

Also, has anyone else bought any of the other copium supplements and noticed a difference? Is it worth getting orthosilicic acid honeybee royal jelly extract and aloe vera? This sounds like a stupid question but are the effects on collagen synthesis for these oral supplements tangible enough to make a difference to your skin on the outside? Would really like some kind of scale to gauge the relative difference between something topical like Tret vs these copium supplements on collagen synthesis.

Great thread OP btw...
 
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EverythingMattersCel said:
Specifically the Sun Ginseng extract was shown to stimulate type I collagen more so than red from the study. Does anyone have a source for this extract? I have searched Google but to no avail.

Also, has anyone else bought any of the other copium supplements and noticed a difference? Is it worth getting orthosilicic acid honeybee royal jelly extract and aloe vera? This sounds like a stupid question but are the effects on collagen synthesis for these oral supplements tangible enough to make a difference to your skin on the outside? Would really like some kind of scale to gauge the relative difference between something topical like Tret vs these copium supplements on collagen synthesis.

Great thread OP btw...
I haven't been able to find a source for sun ginseng (but I haven't really looked hard enough tbh). I was looking at red panax ginseng, but I haven't found any scientific literature on it stimulating collagen synthesis. I think that Pycnogenol and orthosilicic acid (BioSil) have more evidence in that regard. The studies I referenced were in vitro studies, not in vivo done on humans so there's still limiting evidence to suggest whether or not they actually promote collagen production in a living organism (or enough to make a noticeable change). But I have gotten noticeable results from using both of these supplements, and others have noticed the difference they've made on my skin.

As far as gauging what products work the best for promoting collagen synthesis, it would be best to look into the skincare products I recommended as these have more in vivo studies supporting them. You'll get better results if you add a 20% Vitamin C serum with E and ferulic acid, 8% Matrixyl 3000 and 2% Matrixyl Synthe'6, 0.1% madecassoside gel, and 20% glycolic acid peels. I've gotten amazing results from adding these to my routine, especially the A'pieu Madecassoside Cica Gel which has a 0.5% concentration of madecassosides.
 
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Solid thread
 
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Just took 5g of oral Vitamin C for the past 3 days.
 
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Cope @Cope do you know anything than can be done for the lips? Tretinoin is too harsh for it, skin peels off so fast that it irritates the lip and causes pigmentation. I have ruined my lips from smoking(I don't now, havent since I got blackpilled) I dont lick my lips either btw.
The lips skin is kinda aged, has lines and look saggy.
 
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No tl:dr? srs?
 
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Got pretty much everything OP recommends except Tret. Biosil will be coming in the mail shortly
 
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Cope said:
That's why I didn't list any products tbh

Might hold off on posting the routine thread cuz I keep getting bombarded with questions when it's pretty easy to find the right products with sites like incidecoder and cosdna.
I'm kinda low iq for skin care honestly it's not ways that easy to find the right products (definitely not for me). Didn't know about those websites.

Don't be discouraged by people asking you lmao. Just do what you can/ want to. It's just that it's good to ask knowledgeable people for more chances of success 😁.
 
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Gazzamogga said:
Bit of a shit reply to a good thread but this should honestly give you the vast majority of results

No, I think there are some gems aside from tretinoin on here. Tret has tons of research and in vivo studies backing it up. It ultimately only increases type 1 collagen by 80% though (in photodamaged skin, less in non-damaged skin)... some of the other products show some real promise... like matriyxl 3000 at 8%+ concentration has smaller sized in vitro studies showing a type 1 collagen increase of 256%...
 
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sloopnoob said:
Cope @Cope do you know anything than can be done for the lips? Tretinoin is too harsh for it, skin peels off so fast that it irritates the lip and causes pigmentation. I have ruined my lips from smoking(I don't now, havent since I got blackpilled) I dont lick my lips either btw.
The lips skin is kinda aged, has lines and look saggy.
Unfortunately I don't. I was looking into lip therapy products that contained madecassosides, but the brand I was looking at currently doesn't carry it.

SupremeDream said:
Got pretty much everything OP recommends except Tret. Biosil will be coming in the mail shortly
Mirin, report back if you notice results.

Gazzamogga said:
Bit of a shit reply to a good thread but this should honestly give you the vast majority of results
20% Vitamin C, the Matrixyls, and madecassosides all stimulate type I collagen synthesis which is exactly what tretinoin does. They're on the same level if not better.

RAITEIII said:
I'm kinda low iq for skin care honestly it's not ways that easy to find the right products (definitely not for me). Didn't know about those websites.

Don't be discouraged by people asking you lmao. Just do what you can/ want to. It's just that it's good to ask knowledgeable people for more chances of success 😁.
No problem man. I will post my complete routine in a near future thread, but if you have questions feel free to PM me.

EverythingMattersCel said:
No, I think there are some gems aside from tretinoin on here. Tret has tons of research and in vivo studies backing it up. It ultimately only increases type 1 collagen by 80% though (in photodamaged skin, less in non-damaged skin)... some of the other products show some real promise... like matriyxl 3000 at 8%+ concentration has smaller sized in vitro studies showing a type 1 collagen increase of 256%...
Exactly. You literally get the same benefit from Matrixyl compared to tret without the constant skin peeling.
 
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sloopnoob said:
Cope @Cope do you know anything than can be done for the lips? Tretinoin is too harsh for it, skin peels off so fast that it irritates the lip and causes pigmentation. I have ruined my lips from smoking(I don't now, havent since I got blackpilled) I dont lick my lips either btw.
The lips skin is kinda aged, has lines and look saggy.

Try microneedling with small needles, I adjust my pen to 0.3 mm needle length when doing it on my lips.
 
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Cope said:
Unfortunately I don't. I was looking into lip therapy products that contained madecassosides, but the brand I was looking at currently doesn't carry it.


Mirin, report back if you notice results.


20% Vitamin C, the Matrixyls, and madecassosides all stimulate type I collagen synthesis which is exactly what tretinoin does. They're on the same level if not better.


No problem man. I will post my complete routine in a near future thread, but if you have questions feel free to PM me.


Exactly. You literally get the same benefit from Matrixyl compared to tret without the constant skin peeling.
Source for US of Matrixyl?
 
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sloopnoob said:
Cope @Cope do you know anything than can be done for the lips? Tretinoin is too harsh for it, skin peels off so fast that it irritates the lip and causes pigmentation. I have ruined my lips from smoking(I don't now, havent since I got blackpilled) I dont lick my lips either btw.
The lips skin is kinda aged, has lines and look saggy.
Is it bad to lick the lips? I lick mine all the time because they're always dry.
 
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damnit said:
Try microneedling with small needles, I adjust my pen to 0.3 mm needle length when doing it on my lips.
done that made my lips fukin pouty side looks like i have bimaxillary protrusion now
 
sloopnoob

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her said:
Is it bad to lick the lips? I lick mine all the time because they're always dry.
yes it is bad for the lips
 
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I'm already a retinacel but I'm looking for a good aloe gel to put on top .

It's hard to find pure 100% natural gel
 
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Mr_Norwood said:
I'm already a retinacel but I'm looking for a good aloe gel to put on top .

It's hard to find pure 100% natural gel
You're not going to find a product that's pure aloe without additives. They need preservatives like potassium sorbate otherwise they would go bad instantly. I've been eyeing one without potassium and xanthan (these ingredients irritate my skin), might cop one day but I already have so many products.
 
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Cope said:
You're not going to find a product that's pure aloe without additives. They need preservatives like potassium sorbate otherwise they would go bad instantly. I've been eyeing one without potassium and xanthan (these ingredients irritate my skin), might cop one day but I already have so many products.
How's your skin looking OP?
 
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sloopnoob said:
yes it is bad for the lips
But why exactly? I must be pretty screwed up then, been licking my lips for years now. If I don't lick them, they always get extremely dry and the skin starts to peel off. Any suggestions?
 
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Don't Forget to mew said:
How's your skin looking OP?
I can tell you that even after I cleanse my skin before I do my night routine, my skin is still glowing. This didn't happen when I was just using tret. When people ask me my age, I always larp as 2-3 years younger and people still think I look WAY, WAY younger.

Btw you and everyone else here should give BioSil a try. I want to see if more people are actually getting results from it.
 
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Cope said:
I can tell you that even after I cleanse my skin before I do my night routine, my skin is still glowing. This didn't happen when I was just using tret. When people ask me my age, I always larp as 2-3 years younger and people still think I look WAY, WAY younger.

Btw you and everyone else here should give BioSil a try. I want to see if more people are actually getting results from it.
Interesting. So what other sups have worked? Other than biosil etc.
 
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Cope said:
Pycnogenol, I used this one by Viva Naturals. Skin felt noticeably more hydrated, this is most likely due to an increased synthesis of extracellular matrix molecules such as hyaluronic acid and possibly collagen. It increases collagen type I gene expression.

Haven't really tried the other supps since there isn't as much conclusive data on them, but I think we should experiment with them. Astaxanthin /w collagen peptides, ginseng, honeybee royal jelly extract, oral aloe vera, etc.
Repped. I'll some and start taking.

Btw. Astaxanthin made my eyebrows fall out and gave my skin a sick look. Not reccomended.
 
sloopnoob

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her said:
But why exactly? I must be pretty screwed up then, been licking my lips for years now. If I don't lick them, they always get extremely dry and the skin starts to peel off. Any suggestions?
When you lick your lips, you're coating them in saliva. Not only does it evaporate very quickly to leave lips drier than before, your saliva is also full of enzymes that are too harsh for the delicate lip skin. These enzymes can remain on the lips and cause them to feel dry and uncomfortable.
tl;dr licking will make it worse long term only provides short term moisture,i use a moisturizer on lips and then use some vaseline or anything similar to keep moisture locked in
 
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Cope said:
I can tell you that even after I cleanse my skin before I do my night routine, my skin is still glowing. This didn't happen when I was just using tret. When people ask me my age, I always larp as 2-3 years younger and people still think I look WAY, WAY younger.

Btw you and everyone else here should give BioSil a try. I want to see if more people are actually getting results from it.
What' your care routine bro?
 
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Tretinoin use seems to have burned my fat pads,

Do you think I can still get all, or at least most, of the benefits of Tretinoin on Collagen, if I replace it with Matrixyl and a 30% vitamin C serum?
 
sloopnoob

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Cope said:
Unfortunately I don't. I was looking into lip therapy products that contained madecassosides, but the brand I was looking at currently doesn't carry it.
what percentage of madecassoside should i be looking for in a product?
 
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This seems quite useful
 
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Cope @Cope Just bought some Matrixyl but I don't know when it should be added to my routine. Peptides shouldn't be used with direct acids because of the ph changes.



I already use Tret in the PM and Azelaic acid in the AM. According to the Ordinary, adding Matrixyl in the AM will compromise the efficacy of Azelaic acid and vice-versa.

Here is what my routine is looking like atm:

AM
Azelaic acid 10% (for hyperpigmentation not collagen gains)
Moisturiser
Madecassoside cica gel
Anthelios shaka fluid 50 SPF

PM
Cleanse
Tretinoin 0.05%
Moisturiser

Doesn't seem like there is a time to include Matrixyl, unless I add it in the PM. I could try put on Azelaic acid after tretinoin and add matrixyl in the morning. Aza can be an irritant though...
 
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:feelsree: tret is giving me orange peel skin, help asap Cope @Cope I have a wedding to attend in 3 days
 
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Cope said:
To fully optimize our skin's ability to promote collagen production, we need to understand the process of collagen synthesis on a fundamental level. When mRNA moves into the cytoplasm and interacts with ribosomes, both magnesium and zinc are needed for translation to occur. After translation, this polypeptide chain travels to the endoplasmic reticulum (ER). The polypeptide chain undergoes enzymatic modifications, including hydroxylation of proline and lysine which requires iron and vitamin C as cofactors (and oxygen). This process creates procollagen which is released from the fibroblast. The ends of the procollagen molecule are removed by peptidases and the molecule becomes tropocollagen. Tropocollagen undergoes covalent bonding through lysyl oxidase and this creates a collagen fibril. tl;dr magnesium, zinc, iron, vitamin C are necessary co-factors.

Now I know PSL autists are obsessed with carotenoids. Beta-carotene increases type I procollagen mRNA levels, but procollagen is a precursor and not collagen itself so this will not give us noticeable enough results. We need to upregulate gene expression in order to synthesize a functional product. Astaxanthin with hydrolyzed collagen upregulates type I procollagen gene expression and decreases MMP-1 and -12. MMP-1, the prototypical MMP, degrades collagen types 1 and 3. Polyphenols will take this a step further within the sub-class of proanthocyanidins. Specifically, pycnogenol stimulates type I collagen synthesis in subjects’ skin by increasing gene expression by 41%. tl;dr astaxanthin, collagen peptides, and pycnogenol (OPCs).

The main goal should be to find exogenous ways to stimulate type I collagen synthesis since it’s the most abundant collagen found in the skin, and it is the most significant one we lose as we age. Orthosilicic acid stimulates collagen type 1 synthesis and osteoblastic differentiation in human osteoblast-like cells. Processed panax ginseng, sun ginseng stimulates type I collagen by regulating MMP-1 and TIMP-1 expression in human dermal fibroblasts. 10-hydroxy-2-decenoic acid, a characteristic constituent of lipids from honeybee royal jelly extract, stimulates normal human dermal fibroblast cell lines and produce transforming growth factor(TGF) β1, a cytokine that stimulates collagen synthesis. Aloe vera is already mentioned on this forum, but the polysaccharide acemannan in aloe is what causes collagen biosynthesis. tl;dr orthosilicic acid (BioSil), red panax ginseng, honeybee royal jelly extract, and aloe vera.

There are other nutraceuticals, but all the oral supplements I listed are the most evidence-based to promote collagen production. When it comes to skincare, water is wet. But tretinoin increases type I and type III collagen as well as inhibits the expression of MMP-1, which I mentioned breaks down collagen. Topical vitamin C also stimulates type I and type III collagen synthesis. Vitamin C suppresses MMPs responsible for collagen degradation and increases the tissue inhibitor of MMPs, as well as mRNA levels of collagens I and III. Ferulic acid stabilizes solutions of vitamins C and E and doubles its photoprotection of skin so if you’re buying a vitamin C serum without it then it’s over for you. The vitamin C serum also must have a pH below 3.5 for effective penetration. Ascorbic acid serums must be at least 10% to be effective. The maximum amount of ascorbic acid penetration was seen at 20% with a pH of 3.2, so a vitamin C serum with this concentration will give you the best results. Topical 5% niacinamide may stimulate collagen synthesis and the epidermal proteins. Apparently niacinamide had no strong documented effect on collagen, but a study showed that niacinamide was able to increase dermal matrix collagen production. 20% Glycolic acid treatment also increases type I collagen mRNA and hyaluronic acid content of human skin. tl;dr 0.025%+ tretinoin, 20% vitamin c with e and ferulic acid, 5% niacinamide, 20% glycolic acid peels.

For cosmetic peptides, X @x30001 would often shill the use of GHK-cu since copper peptides do stimulate collagen synthesis by a noticeable percent. But if they’re overused, GHK-cu can cause more damage than good (can cause a crepey skin texture). So no need to use it yet since you’re all still teencels. Also there are better proven peptides for collagenmaxxing pursuits. Matrixyl 3000 (trademark for palmitoyl tripeptide-1 and palmitoyl tetrapeptide-7) stimulates type I collagen, fibronectin, and hyaluronic acid. The 8% concentration is the highest concentration proven to be effective in vivo. Matrixyl synthe'6 (trademark for palmitoyl tripeptide-38) stimulates type I, type III, and type IV collagen, as well as fibronectin and hyaluronic acid. The 2% concentration is the highest concentration proven to be effective in vivo. The original Matrixyl (trademark for palmitoyl pentapeptide-4) also stimulates collagen types I, III, and IV, as well as elastin and fibronectin. Tetrapeptide-21 and EGF (human oligopeptide-1) are also often sought after by the foid skincare community. tl;dr matrixyl, matrixyl 3000, matrixyl synthe'6, tetrapeptide-21, and egf.

Another skincare ingredient this site has never heard of is centella asiatica extract or madecassosides. Madecassosides stimulate type I collagen synthesis in human dermal fibroblast cells. Referring back to process of collagen synthesis, centella asiatica increased the metabolism of lysine and proline, the amino acids that I mentioned that build the collagen molecule. In addition, these compounds increased the synthesis of tropocollagen and mucopolysaccharide in the connective tissues. You need to find a cream with at least 0.1% madecassosides.

As a reminder for sunscreen, it needs to be SPF 50+ PA++++. UVA rays cause tanning, hyperpigmentation, fine lines and wrinkles, while UVB causes sunburn. SPF only rates UVB, while the PA system (or PPD) rates UVA. The sunscreen should consist of photostable UV filters too so ingredients like zinc oxide and titanium dioxide mog oxybenzone and benzophenone.

Use https://incidecoder.com/ if you need help finding specific ingredients, but this thread was just an overview for a future thread that will go over the routine.

Sources:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK507709/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4390761/
https://www.pycnogenol.com/fileadmi...chures/Pycnogenol_OralSkinCare_EN_161_WEB.pdf
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12633784/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3659568/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3583892/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11407971/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16185284/
https://kindofstephen.com/skin-penetration-of-ascorbic-acid/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2921764/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11359487/
http://www.smartskincare.com/treatments/topical/Matrixyl3000report.pdf
http://www.beautyandskin.co.nz/i/images/matrixylsynth6copy.pdf

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equipoise boosts collagen 300%, thats how insta fitness dudes have that skin
 
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silica,msm,chondroitin>everything for skin quality
 
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ablanc10 said:
silica,msm,chondroitin>everything for skin quality
have you noticed hair growth on these things? i'm thinking of taking msm to make my hair grow faster and eyelashes grow longer
 
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eyebagcel said:
have you noticed hair growth on these things? i'm thinking of taking msm to make my hair grow faster and eyelashes grow longer
Yes
 
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ablanc10 said:
silica,msm,chondroitin>everything for skin quality
wouldn't we get enough for this from diet?

I thought retin-A was the gold standard for skin quality and collagen
 
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TurboFixer said:
wouldn't we get enough for this from diet?

I thought retin-A was the gold standard for skin quality and collagen
Not really, specially sillica.
 
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Btw guys msm burns fat, so don't use blindly.
 
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Op whats your thoughts on dermarolling the face?
 
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Guys, 4mg of astaxanthin per day is enought? 185/90kg
 
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Cope @Cope should I use retinol before 25 if I have good skin and no issues related to it whatsoever?
 
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Deo12 said:
Guys, 4mg of astaxanthin per day is enought? 185/90kg
Im on 24mg for the skin color boost and slowly decreasing after two months. Getting a concentration of color is nice tbh.
 
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filippas.edonas said:
Cope @Cope should I use retinol before 25 if I have good skin and no issues related to it whatsoever?
yes
 
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Cope

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sloopnoob said:
:feelsree: tret is giving me orange peel skin, help asap Cope @Cope I have a wedding to attend in 3 days
late response but add Stratia Liquid Gold to your AM routine. It is composed of ceramides, cholesterol, and fatty acids in a 3:1:1 ratio, which imitates the fatty matrix that holds our skin's moisture barrier together. This will completely repair your moisture barrier.

ablanc10 said:
Not really, specially sillica.
yea and orthosilicic acid is the most bioavailable form.

filippas.edonas said:
Cope @Cope should I use retinol before 25 if I have good skin and no issues related to it whatsoever?
unless you have excess subcutaneous fat, it has been shown to cause loss to this which is necessary for a youthful look.
 
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Cope said:
late response but add Stratia Liquid Gold to your AM routine. It is composed of ceramides, cholesterol, and fatty acids in a 3:1:1 ratio, which imitates the fatty matrix that holds our skin's moisture barrier together. This will completely repair your moisture barrier.


yea and orthosilicic acid is the most bioavailable form.


unless you have excess subcutaneous fat, it has been shown to cause loss to this which is necessary for a youthful look.
then are you against the use of retinol in general? even in mid20s?
 
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filippas.edonas said:
then are you against the use of retinol in general? even in mid20s?
nah mid 20s should be fine, it will still increase type I and type III collagen and will reduce excess subcutaneous fat if you have any (which I do).

Soalian @Soalian 30% would be overkill, no in vivo studies show it to be necessary
 
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antiantifa

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All of this is cope if you don't do cold showers, easy skin workout tbh.
 

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