Facial Depth - Defined

RealSurgerymax

RealSurgerymax

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Facial Depth is basically a refined version Forward Growth theory. While some people might say water is wet, this updated theory explains why many midface implant designs look fake and stuck-on, and why “Modified LeFort 3” (often abbreviated MLF3) has almost no chance of creating an extremely aesthetic face.
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4C34EEC1 2664 445E 8236 3D78CD9917D8

Here is how I separate and categorize facial depth.

Certain landmarks are constant and can’t be changed like the external auditory meatus, tragus, anterior/posterior positioning of the eyes, neck and to some extent the hyoid bone. These are the constant reference marks. Everything else can be moved forward with the properly modified surgeries.

It’s my opinion that the most overlooked subcategory of facial depth is anterior facial depth which is projection or retrusion in the LeFort 2 region. It’s probably the area which sets apart average people from beautiful people the most.

Anterior Facial Depth
(The projection of the central midface off the posterior midface and is enhanced through LeFort 2 Osteotomy)
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B5A30B58 9EC2 4906 A4EB BE25C8485E84


Posterior Facial Depth
The projection of the entire face as a unit from the rest of the skull and corrected by a LeFort 3 Advancement or implants informed by the LeFort 3 Concept.
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387A35A4 4FA3 4F77 81ED 30AED8CA05D3


When all of the subcategories of facial depth are sufficiently projecting the face fits into a square shape:

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206AB7D1 F314 4779 AAEB 1383251F65AC
801E270D 99D9 4204 A8CD F5255F92FF13
63CFCEAD 1C5B 4FD1 91BA 6E8C77ECE7CC


Adding facial depth with a true LeFort II or III that goes up and over the nose can give a very powerful yet natural looking result. So-called ‘Modified’ LeFort 3 and LeFort 2 Osteotomies which leave out the nose and nasion can’t do this any better than custom implants can. Therefore it should never be utilized except in the implant-phobic.
E24A5C24 F189 44B3 9DA9 200213AD3781

The main aesthetic problem with a non-syndrome LeFort II is the medial canthus is usually pulled too forward, off the eyeball. In the past this has required medial canthus setback procedure with a trans-nasal wire which is not natural appearing and only belongs in syndrome craniofacial surgery. However LeFort 2 can be modified to be in front of the medial canthus and lacrimal system as I did here:
C7B201B0 EE82 4374 8C50 7320ED7A0708


If you don’t want LeFort 2 or LeFort 3 I have found it possible to apply this concept to my implant designs after a LeFort 1 Osteotomy. How much depends on the advancement of the LF1. I have had success balancing faces after “over-advanced” bimaxes (LACOMS strikes again! Barcelona Line strikes again!) with specially designed custom implants.

CBC0A159 CA69 4860 9F33 5A23B4D24215


This is just one of many concepts that just about all custom implant designs & Orthognathic surgery plans never take into account, unless by accident. (Custom Implants are almost always designed by engineers at big companies who don’t know aesthetics. Meanwhile most surgeons don’t know 3D design engineering. It’s almost never the surgeon literally designing the implant - implants are just designed under their supervision/approval.)

That’s quite a bit of detail for a concept I have gatekept strictly for my own clients for about 2 years. More information about highly-modified Craniofacial surgery available on instagram @unicorn.CMF (professional page) and @Giant.Implants (educational meme page)
 
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Thx for the effort, Will read later
 
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Anterior Facial Depth
(The projection of the central midface off the posterior midface and achievable through LeFort 2 Osteotomy)
I think I lack anterior facial depth, good thread.
 
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Brutal

Time to cancel my MLF3 and get a full blown Lefort 3 instead
 
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Brutal

Time to cancel my MLF3 and get a full blown Lefort 3 instead
Glad I saved you from the disappointment of MLF3, which custom implants have made obsolete.
 
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Finally, a post about looks and their improvement on Looksmax.org
 
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good post bro.

what do you think about this procedure? Is it an alternative to implants for mild projection improvements?
Not as much control, able to resorb making the rhinoplasty result less stable. Would depend on the case.
 
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The only one in the entire world that is doing serious research and proposes actual, innovative and viable solutions to advance the field of male aesthetics. 11/10 thread.

Would love to read a thread from you about cheekbone reduction combined with custom implants, for people that has overly wide cheekbones but still lacks anterior projection and has recessed undereyes. There's literally nothing wrote about this by someone with proper knowledge.
 
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Do you have any before and after of implants?
 
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Do you have any before and after of implants?
Yes but have to show on zoom with your camera on to make sure you don’t screenshot.
 
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How is mine
facial depth
20230114 160145
 
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Good thread as ever. What is the minimum amount of time that you recommend waiting for your implants after LF1?
 
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The total cranial and facial depth is good. Posterior (tragus to malar eminence is very deep. And I also assume you S-N length is long) but anterior facial depth, and nasion projection from anterior corneal plane is lacking.

Face is also short looking and could probably use a clockwise rotation.
 
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Good thread as ever. What is the minimum amount of time that you recommend waiting for your implants after LF1?
6 months recommended (New scans for design after 3 months) , but have collaborated cases where surgeon did it after 2 weeks.
 
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The total cranial and facial depth is good. Posterior (tragus to malar eminence is very deep. And I also assume you S-N length is long) but anterior facial depth, and nasion projection from anterior corneal plane is lacking.

Face is also short looking and could probably use a clockwise rotation.
It is true my face is short looking tbh
Top tier G keep the great work
 
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Holy fuck, I need lefort 3
 
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Facial Depth is basically a refined version Forward Growth theory. While some people might say water is wet, this updated theory explains why many midface implant designs look fake and stuck-on, and why “Modified LeFort 3” (often abbreviated MLF3) has almost no chance of creating an extremely aesthetic face.
View attachment 2039450
View attachment 2039436
Here is how I separate and categorize facial depth.

Certain landmarks are constant and can’t be changed like the external auditory meatus, tragus, anterior/posterior positioning of the eyes, neck and to some extent the hyoid bone. These are the constant reference marks. Everything else can be moved forward with the properly modified surgeries.

It’s my opinion that the most overlooked subcategory of facial depth is anterior facial depth which is projection or retrusion in the LeFort 2 region. It’s probably the area which sets apart average people from beautiful people the most.

Anterior Facial Depth
(The projection of the central midface off the posterior midface and is enhanced through LeFort 2 Osteotomy)
View attachment 2039438
View attachment 2039439

Posterior Facial Depth
The projection of the entire face as a unit from the rest of the skull and corrected by a LeFort 3 Advancement or implants informed by the LeFort 3 Concept.
View attachment 2039443
View attachment 2039444

When all of the subcategories of facial depth are sufficiently projecting the face fits into a square shape:

View attachment 2039446
View attachment 2039447View attachment 2039448View attachment 2039449

Adding facial depth with a true LeFort II or III that goes up and over the nose can give a very powerful yet natural looking result. So-called ‘Modified’ LeFort 3 and LeFort 2 Osteotomies which leave out the nose and nasion can’t do this any better than custom implants can. Therefore it should never be utilized except in the implant-phobic.
View attachment 2039455
The main aesthetic problem with a non-syndrome LeFort II is the medial canthus is usually pulled too forward, off the eyeball. In the past this has required medial canthus setback procedure with a trans-nasal wire which is not natural appearing and only belongs in syndrome craniofacial surgery. However LeFort 2 can be modified to be in front of the medial canthus and lacrimal system as I did here:
View attachment 2039466

If you don’t want LeFort 2 or LeFort 3 I have found it possible to apply this concept to my implant designs after a LeFort 1 Osteotomy. How much depends on the advancement of the LF1. I have had success balancing faces after “over-advanced” bimaxes (LACOMS strikes again! Barcelona Line strikes again!) with specially designed custom implants.

View attachment 2039458

This is just one of many concepts that just about all custom implant designs & Orthognathic surgery plans never take into account, unless by accident. (Custom Implants are almost always designed by engineers at big companies who don’t know aesthetics. Meanwhile most surgeons don’t know 3D design engineering. It’s almost never the surgeon literally designing the implant - implants are just designed under their supervision/approval.)

That’s quite a bit of detail for a concept I have gatekept strictly for my own clients for about 2 years. More information about highly-modified Craniofacial surgery available on instagram @unicorn.CMF (professional page) and @Giant.Implants (educational meme page)
Is mine good?
993A96FB 2957 42DF 8D5B EA2FABBA3411
 
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This or death

I read this already from giant, good post regardless
 
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i lsvk posterior facial depth whichbis why i look ogre
 
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You’re giving me BDD, I have to get a fucking supraorbital implant now JFL
 
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1673700799444

Well I failed the square test brutally.

Is it anterior depth I lack? And have I understood the layers correctly?
1673700957834
 
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I’m not being hyperbolic here. I 100% beleive you will go down as one of the greatest contributors to the field of male plastic surgery. Your understanding of not only what makes a face attractive but the ways in which us abused dogs can ascend is truly impressive.

I mean just look at this banger of a meme here:
982FE327 306D 4EED 880E 5616A0420C95


I don’t think I can adequately describe just how elegantly this image encapsulates the past year of search and struggle for me. I quite literally went though this exact process, desperately trying to find an easy solution to my facial disharmonies, but never really being satisfied with the temporary answer I came across because there was always that lingering doubt that I had not actually found the true correction to the underlying issue. It doesn’t help that there is a ton of conflicting information and opinions on this site, and it takes a dedicated effort to sift through the garbage until you find the gems, especially if you start out as completely ignorant as I was. Obviously, everyone has a unique situation and not all of these corrections will necessarily apply to them, but if your base is bad then chances are these are exactly what it takes to break out of your current hardcapped PSL rating.

Even more monumental to me is that this progression of thought, which independently took me about a year ever since I discovered this forum, is in itself a capstone to the 5 YEAR mental gymnastics I’ve underwent since 2018. Back then, when I was bluepilled as can be, I came upon the manosphere redpill content on YouTube, which led to the common progression from bluepill -> redpill-> blackpill. What a journey man. Rewiring your brain from the mainstream bluepilled narrative is tough when you’ve been indoctrinated since birth. Idk, maybe it doesn’t take most people this long lmao, but better late then never.

Thank you for streamlining years and years of stochastic PSL theorizing on looks theory into an ever more clear picture of how to fix facial attractiveness.

If only more plastic surgeons actually cared about solving aesthetics issues instead of pushing shitty camouflage procedures… my heart aches for all the guys out there who have yet to go down this humbling train of discoveries, if ever.
 
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I’m not being hyperbolic here. I 100% beleive you will go down as one of the greatest contributors to the field of male plastic surgery. Your understanding of not only what makes a face attractive but the ways in which us abused dogs can ascend is truly impressive.

I mean just look at this banger of a meme here:
View attachment 2039637

I don’t think I can adequately describe just how elegantly this image encapsulates the past year of search and struggle for me. I quite literally went though this exact process, desperately trying to find an easy solution to my facial disharmonies, but never really being satisfied with the temporary answer I came across because there was always that lingering doubt that I had not actually found the true correction to the underlying issue. It doesn’t help that there is a ton of conflicting information and opinions on this site, and it takes a dedicated effort to sift through the garbage until you find the gems, especially if you start out as completely ignorant as I was. Obviously, everyone has a unique situation and not all of these corrections will necessarily apply to them, but if your base is bad then chances are these are exactly what it takes to break out of your current hardcapped PSL rating.

Even more monumental to me is that this progression of thought, which independently took me about a year ever since I discovered this forum, is in itself a capstone to the 5 YEAR mental gymnastics I’ve underwent since 2018. Back then, when I was bluepilled as can be, I came upon the manosphere redpill content on YouTube, which led to the common progression from bluepill -> redpill-> blackpill. What a journey man. Rewiring your brain from the mainstream bluepilled narrative is tough when you’ve been indoctrinated since birth. Idk, maybe it doesn’t take most people this long lmao, but better late then never.

Thank you for streamlining years and years of stochastic PSL theorizing on looks theory into an ever more clear picture of how to fix facial attractiveness.

If only more plastic surgeons actually cared about solving aesthetics issues instead of pushing shitty camouflage procedures… my heart aches for all the guys out there who have yet to go down this humbling train of discoveries, if ever.

Agree with you, specially with the first paragraph.
He really is a visionary and a pioneer IMO, and also very generous with his time. Very rare combo, we are incredibly fortunate to have him here. His work puts to shame what other surgeons are doing in comparison, specially the implant designs. I'm 100% sure I want my future surgeries planned by him.
 
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Facial Depth is basically a refined version Forward Growth theory. While some people might say water is wet, this updated theory explains why many midface implant designs look fake and stuck-on, and why “Modified LeFort 3” (often abbreviated MLF3) has almost no chance of creating an extremely aesthetic face.
View attachment 2039450
View attachment 2039436
Here is how I separate and categorize facial depth.

Certain landmarks are constant and can’t be changed like the external auditory meatus, tragus, anterior/posterior positioning of the eyes, neck and to some extent the hyoid bone. These are the constant reference marks. Everything else can be moved forward with the properly modified surgeries.

It’s my opinion that the most overlooked subcategory of facial depth is anterior facial depth which is projection or retrusion in the LeFort 2 region. It’s probably the area which sets apart average people from beautiful people the most.

Anterior Facial Depth
(The projection of the central midface off the posterior midface and is enhanced through LeFort 2 Osteotomy)
View attachment 2039438
View attachment 2039439

Posterior Facial Depth
The projection of the entire face as a unit from the rest of the skull and corrected by a LeFort 3 Advancement or implants informed by the LeFort 3 Concept.
View attachment 2039443
View attachment 2039444

When all of the subcategories of facial depth are sufficiently projecting the face fits into a square shape:

View attachment 2039446
View attachment 2039447View attachment 2039448View attachment 2039449

Adding facial depth with a true LeFort II or III that goes up and over the nose can give a very powerful yet natural looking result. So-called ‘Modified’ LeFort 3 and LeFort 2 Osteotomies which leave out the nose and nasion can’t do this any better than custom implants can. Therefore it should never be utilized except in the implant-phobic.
View attachment 2039455
The main aesthetic problem with a non-syndrome LeFort II is the medial canthus is usually pulled too forward, off the eyeball. In the past this has required medial canthus setback procedure with a trans-nasal wire which is not natural appearing and only belongs in syndrome craniofacial surgery. However LeFort 2 can be modified to be in front of the medial canthus and lacrimal system as I did here:
View attachment 2039466

If you don’t want LeFort 2 or LeFort 3 I have found it possible to apply this concept to my implant designs after a LeFort 1 Osteotomy. How much depends on the advancement of the LF1. I have had success balancing faces after “over-advanced” bimaxes (LACOMS strikes again! Barcelona Line strikes again!) with specially designed custom implants.

View attachment 2039458

This is just one of many concepts that just about all custom implant designs & Orthognathic surgery plans never take into account, unless by accident. (Custom Implants are almost always designed by engineers at big companies who don’t know aesthetics. Meanwhile most surgeons don’t know 3D design engineering. It’s almost never the surgeon literally designing the implant - implants are just designed under their supervision/approval.)

That’s quite a bit of detail for a concept I have gatekept strictly for my own clients for about 2 years. More information about highly-modified Craniofacial surgery available on instagram @unicorn.CMF (professional page) and @Giant.Implants (educational meme page)
Great thread mate, stickied!
 
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thank you captain! hope your diabetes is OK!
 
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Should the zygos be more anteriorly projected than the upper maxilla/ paranasal area?
 
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The guy on the left is facing towards the camera whilst the guy on the right is facing away. I think this theory does not take camera angles into account.
 
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The guy on the left is facing towards the camera whilst the guy on the right is facing away. I think this theory does not take camera angles into account.
No, the guy on the left has his head turned slightly (can see his other eyebrow) and the guy on the right is looking at it head-on. This only proves the point even more.
 
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The only one in the entire world that is doing serious research and proposes actual, innovative and viable solutions to advance the field of male aesthetics. 11/10 thread.

Would love to read a thread from you about cheekbone reduction combined with custom implants, for people that has overly wide cheekbones but still lacks anterior projection and has recessed undereyes. There's literally nothing wrote about this by someone with proper knowledge.
How do you even have overly wide cheekbones unless you lack face height or got MSE?
 
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No, the guy on the left has his head turned slightly (can see his other eyebrow) and the guy on the right is looking at it head-on. This only proves the point even more.
I do not understand how this proves your point. Shouldn't you use photos with the same camera position in order to argue your point?
 
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I do not understand how this proves your point. Shouldn't you use photos with the same camera position in order to argue your point?
This is a classic oldie picture if you don’t like it you can consult the several other pictures I posted.

It proves the point more because the projection looks even less when the head is turned.
 
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Golden era of looksmax type thread
 
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How do you even have overly wide cheekbones unless you lack face height or got MSE?

Genetics. I don't lack face height and didn't get MSE.
 
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Take the forehead forward growth pill. Also, Do you think one can have a forward grown cranium with a recessed lower third or is it a package?
 
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Genetics. I don't lack face height and didn't get MSE.
MSE make it worse is what I meant .I’ve never seen anyone with a tall skull have too wide cheekbones how does that even happen?
 
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Take the forehead forward growth pill. Also, Do you think one can have a forward grown cranium with a recessed lower third or is it a package?
Yes all combinations possible
 
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MSE make it worse is what I meant .I’ve never seen anyone with a tall skull have too wide cheekbones how does that even happen?

Genetics. Kinda like people born with norwood 2 hairlines, rare but can happen.
 
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These are close enough and and still good facial depth to height ratio. But approaching 1:1 is still the ideal given the face isn’t short which my example is not.

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34C8678D 8BB9 4A81 ACCD 4F4A39DDEBD7
41F019E1 A007 4B6F AB85 39C60D7CFD49



one of the examples you posted is one of the best examples of facial depth and you made the box longer than it should be
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Further the préexistant amount of facial depth or shallowness predicts how good of a LF1-level bimax result you can get

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Everyone knows this case because of how good a beforw and after it is by a Raffaini (some of it is puberty) but he is also the perfect bimax candidate since he has a deep face but also an extremely retruded face by SNA and ANB at the same time.
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People with shallow face like above will get bimax advancements with disappointing results like many cases on this forum last year.

that guy in the example has a vertically short face probably looks like a neotenous baby from the front
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C2A506AC 4028 49E3 A1F9 FC41F00C8FC8
Not short faced.
 
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Do you work with any surgeron yet ?
also, ive never heard a surgeron doing modified lefort 2 or 3 do you know any of them ?
also ive heard thzt paranasal augmentztion can change the nose, i have already a nose that is upturn ( in the feminine range ngl) will it make it worst ?
 
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no such thing just forward growth shit thread
 
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Do you work with any surgeron yet ?
also, ive never heard a surgeron doing modified lefort 2 or 3 do you know any of them ?
also ive heard thzt paranasal augmentztion can change the nose, i have already a nose that is upturn ( in the feminine range ngl) will it make it worst ?
Yes several

Yes I have heard of surgeons doing MLF2/3

Yes it does change the nose but I have modified paranasal implants to be what I call “cradle style” to minimize nasal deformation. If it’s done before or during rhinoplasty then it doesn’t matter as much.

I would need to evaluate your aesthetics formally to give specific advice

no such thing just forward growth shit thread

Lol you’re a moron
 
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This is a great thread, i’m going to make a thread on how the maxilla differs between races and what “forward growth” actually is imma tag you so you can comment/critique it when it’s up
 
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