Forward growth: CCW maxilla rotation?

[Dastan]

Basically everyone randomly followed the idea that forward growth and CCW maxilla rotation (compact midface, facial upswing and etc.) go together.
Prob cos mike mew said something initially about it or whatever?

Maxilla and midface area get "compact looking", as well as nose with increased maxillary prognathism angle alone:

Increased SNA - more maxillary prognathism = more forward growth
Increased SNB - more mandibular prognathism = more forward growth
Decreased ANB - more balanced relationship of forward growth between maxilla and mandible.

I don't see any specific studies where increased forward growth goes together with CCW palate (maxilla) inclination angle.
If we take x-ray image of this very recessed guy and compare it to a person with normal/good forward growth, maxilla is rotated upwards in recessed guy and its not long, in fact its much shorter relatively speaking, It's very close to the eye orbits. The long distance of the "lower maxilla" is called upper anterior dental height and not maxilla length, so his actual maxilla is not even long, it's just set back.
In case of good forward growth guy, his maxilla is rotated relatively downwards (relatively to recessed guy) and it's not shorter, maybe longer:

vs

And I didn't mess up the palate inclination line, I connected it to where the septum starts in both cases.

Thoughts?

 

[caiolindo]

Basically everyone randomly followed the idea that forward growth and CCW maxilla rotation (compact midface, facial upswing and etc.) go together.
Prob cos mike mew said something initially about it or whatever?

Maxilla and midface area get "compact looking", as well as nose with increased maxillary prognathism angle alone:

Increased SNA - more maxillary prognathism = more forward growth
Increased SNB - more mandibular prognathism = more forward growth
Decreased ANB - more balanced relationship of forward growth between maxilla and mandible.

I don't see any specific studies where increased forward growth goes together with CCW palate (maxilla) inclination angle.
If we take x-ray image of this very recessed guy and compare it to a person with normal/good forward growth, maxilla is rotated upwards in recessed guy and its not long, in fact its much shorter relatively speaking, It's very close to the eye orbits. The long distance of the "lower maxilla" is called upper anterior dental height and not maxilla length, so his actual maxilla is not even long, it's just set back.
In case of good forward growth guy, his maxilla is rotated relatively downwards (relatively to recessed guy) and it's not shorter, maybe longer:
View attachment 3343980 vs View attachment 3343981

And I didn't mess up the palate inclination line, I connected it to where the septum starts in both cases.

Thoughts?

good thread, ur right btw

 

[HorseMan7]

Basically everyone randomly followed the idea that forward growth and CCW maxilla rotation (compact midface, facial upswing and etc.) go together.
Prob cos mike mew said something initially about it or whatever?

Maxilla and midface area get "compact looking", as well as nose with increased maxillary prognathism angle alone:

Increased SNA - more maxillary prognathism = more forward growth
Increased SNB - more mandibular prognathism = more forward growth
Decreased ANB - more balanced relationship of forward growth between maxilla and mandible.

I don't see any specific studies where increased forward growth goes together with CCW palate (maxilla) inclination angle.
If we take x-ray image of this very recessed guy and compare it to a person with normal/good forward growth, maxilla is rotated upwards in recessed guy and its not long, in fact its much shorter relatively speaking, It's very close to the eye orbits. The long distance of the "lower maxilla" is called upper anterior dental height and not maxilla length, so his actual maxilla is not even long, it's just set back.
In case of good forward growth guy, his maxilla is rotated relatively downwards (relatively to recessed guy) and it's not shorter, maybe longer:
View attachment 3343980 vs View attachment 3343981

And I didn't mess up the palate inclination line, I connected it to where the septum starts in both cases.

Thoughts?

I might be misunderstanding you, but your maxilla line is lined up with the top of the palate, correct? I wonder if the more "upwards" orientation of the line in the recessed guy is due to a high palate arch. As the palate gets narrow, the roof of the mouth deforms and moves upwards. With that in mind, the midface in the forward grown guy does look more vertically compact.

 

[HorseMan7]

To add to my point, look at the difference between the top of the maxilla and the top of the teeth in both pics

 

[Dastan]

To add to my point, look at the difference between the top of the maxilla and the top of the teeth in both pics

It's not technically the actual "maxilla height" it's upper dental height which is longer, as I said initially in the post.
Now imagine his upper dental height was the same as non-recessed guy example, he'd still looks recessed compared to him, cos his actual maxilla anterior endpoint (without the elongated area under) is set back relatively to the nasion in comparison to the normal growth guy.
And the recessed guy maxilla is indeed upward tilted relatively to normal growth guy, cos I messed up a cranial alignment in the example pic of normal forward growth guy, here more accurate comparison:

vs

If it's to due to a high palate arch, that doesn't change the fact the recessed guy has technically an upward rotated maxilla.
And this would also mean that high palate arch (=maxillary / palate recession pattern) causes and upward maxillary rotation in his case, which supports my argument.
Not sure if that's a universal rule, I'll research it further.

 

[cc_7373]

Basically everyone randomly followed the idea that forward growth and CCW maxilla rotation (compact midface, facial upswing and etc.) go together.
Prob cos mike mew said something initially about it or whatever?

Maxilla and midface area get "compact looking", as well as nose with increased maxillary prognathism angle alone:

Increased SNA - more maxillary prognathism = more forward growth
Increased SNB - more mandibular prognathism = more forward growth
Decreased ANB - more balanced relationship of forward growth between maxilla and mandible.

I don't see any specific studies where increased forward growth goes together with CCW palate (maxilla) inclination angle.
If we take x-ray image of this very recessed guy and compare it to a person with normal/good forward growth, maxilla is rotated upwards in recessed guy and its not long, in fact its much shorter relatively speaking, It's very close to the eye orbits. The long distance of the "lower maxilla" is called upper anterior dental height and not maxilla length, so his actual maxilla is not even long, it's just set back.
In case of good forward growth guy, his maxilla is rotated relatively downwards (relatively to recessed guy) and it's not shorter, maybe longer:
View attachment 3343980 vs View attachment 3343981

And I didn't mess up the palate inclination line, I connected it to where the septum starts in both cases.

Thoughts?

brutally fucked by jewish orthos, even surgery cant do shit for this

 

[CyberPsychodelic]

What does this mean tbh? we only need lineal Bimax instead of Bimax ccw?

 

[Elioreverie]

Basically everyone randomly followed the idea that forward growth and CCW maxilla rotation (compact midface, facial upswing and etc.) go together.
Prob cos mike mew said something initially about it or whatever?

Maxilla and midface area get "compact looking", as well as nose with increased maxillary prognathism angle alone:

Increased SNA - more maxillary prognathism = more forward growth
Increased SNB - more mandibular prognathism = more forward growth
Decreased ANB - more balanced relationship of forward growth between maxilla and mandible.

I don't see any specific studies where increased forward growth goes together with CCW palate (maxilla) inclination angle.
If we take x-ray image of this very recessed guy and compare it to a person with normal/good forward growth, maxilla is rotated upwards in recessed guy and its not long, in fact its much shorter relatively speaking, It's very close to the eye orbits. The long distance of the "lower maxilla" is called upper anterior dental height and not maxilla length, so his actual maxilla is not even long, it's just set back.
In case of good forward growth guy, his maxilla is rotated relatively downwards (relatively to recessed guy) and it's not shorter, maybe longer:
View attachment 3343980 vs View attachment 3343981

And I didn't mess up the palate inclination line, I connected it to where the septum starts in both cases.

Thoughts?

so upward growth/upwards rotation is not ideal?

 

[Dastan]

so upward growth/upwards rotation is not ideal?

Idk, but i don't see any evidence of that being desirable? The compact "looking midface" with strong bone support is based on underlying forward growth, how forward the upper and lower jaw are relatively to the cranium = SNA and SNB angle:

Is there any actual evidence of correlation between strong, desirable, correct, healthy, attractive etc. facial structure development pattern and "upward growth" = shorter factual midface vertical length (not dentoalveolar height, which is under the maxilla, where the teeth attach to, cos that's definitely correlated with downward, undesirable growth pattern) or palate (maxilla) upward inclination?

 

[spolty]

Basically everyone randomly followed the idea that forward growth and CCW maxilla rotation (compact midface, facial upswing and etc.) go together.
Prob cos mike mew said something initially about it or whatever?

Maxilla and midface area get "compact looking", as well as nose with increased maxillary prognathism angle alone:

Increased SNA - more maxillary prognathism = more forward growth
Increased SNB - more mandibular prognathism = more forward growth
Decreased ANB - more balanced relationship of forward growth between maxilla and mandible.

I don't see any specific studies where increased forward growth goes together with CCW palate (maxilla) inclination angle.
If we take x-ray image of this very recessed guy and compare it to a person with normal/good forward growth, maxilla is rotated upwards in recessed guy and its not long, in fact its much shorter relatively speaking, It's very close to the eye orbits. The long distance of the "lower maxilla" is called upper anterior dental height and not maxilla length, so his actual maxilla is not even long, it's just set back.
In case of good forward growth guy, his maxilla is rotated relatively downwards (relatively to recessed guy) and it's not shorter, maybe longer:
View attachment 3343980 vs View attachment 3343981

And I didn't mess up the palate inclination line, I connected it to where the septum starts in both cases.

Thoughts?

I think Ur right,i have a lot of ccw rotation but still Little forward growth

 

[thecel]

What’s Your BiMaxillary Upswing Angle?

The true measure of upward and forward growth. Angle Quality Sub 90º Recessed 90º – 95º Flattish 95º – 100º Moderate 100º – 105º High 105º+ Dogged The ratio of the 2 lines’ lengths is your neurocranium to splanchnocranium growth ratio.

looksmax.org

 

[mellozz246]

what does this all mean can u explain it better in football terms

 

[thecel]

bump this thread is gold level

 

[mellozz246]

bump this thread is gold level

yes bumpity bump

 

[HorseMan7]

What does this mean tbh? we only need lineal Bimax instead of Bimax ccw?

You can do linear advancements with bimax. Usually you do some amount of advancement + rotation. In someone with a downward grown midface, the theoretical best result would come from rotating everything about an axis just below the eyes. The jaws are rotated downwards in the first pic, and I agree with OP that there doesn't seem to be vertical growth in the midface, not much anyway. The maxillary bone is just in the wrong position.

I don't think that pic is a good representation for everyone with downward growth though. Having a vertically excessive midface seems to come with having a steep occlusal plane. Oftentimes, people with steep occlusal planes do not have vertically excessive midfaces though.



I'm curious if shortening the midface is ever done. I've heard of impacting the maxilla, but I've never heard of a surgeon impacting anything above that during a lf2 or lf3.