MSE Questions

[randomvanish]

How many months you need braces after mse ?
Is there anyway without braces on ?

What are the disadvantages of MSE?

I want to get lumineers, so ca i get lumineer after Mse ?

 

[Deleted member 8941]

Bump.

 

[scalpel]

1. Depends on how bad your teeth are starting out and how much you expand them.

2. If you expand and don't have braces on to realign your teeth into the correct position you will completely mess up your occlusion (i.e. your teeth will not fit together correctly)

3. If you're old enough to be on here, the main disadvantage of MSE is that it will not actually give you any skeletal expansion. The suture is too interdigitated at your age. You will just be pushing your teeth outhward.

4. Yes, you can get lumineers after.

Let this be clear: the kids on here pursuing MSE in the hope of facial improvement are completely wasting their time.

 

[Sadboi]

1. Depends on how bad your teeth are starting out and how much you expand them.

2. If you expand and don't have braces on to realign your teeth into the correct position you will completely mess up your occlusion (i.e. your teeth will not fit together correctly)

3. If you're old enough to be on here, the main disadvantage of MSE is that it will not actually give you any skeletal expansion. The suture is too interdigitated at your age. You will just be pushing your teeth outhward.

4. Yes, you can get lumineers after.

Let this be clear: the kids on here pursuing MSE in the hope of facial improvement are completely wasting their time.

3 is just wrong, do you even know what MSE does lol. It’s in the name bro, it doesn’t just expand ur palate ur whole mid face expands. Go do some research on MSE before commenting on it.

 

[scalpel]

3 is just wrong, do you even know what MSE does lol. It’s in the name bro, it doesn’t just expand ur palate ur whole mid face expands. Go do some research on MSE before commenting on it.

I'm an orthodontist, so I know quite a bit about what MSE does. Would love to hear what your clinical experience with MSE is, particularly in older patients.

 

[Sadboi]

I'm an orthodontist, so I know quite a bit about what MSE does. Would love to hear what your clinical experience with MSE is, particularly in older patients.

Bro fuck up ur not an ortho lol. The suture literally splits and the midface fans out go look at any fuckin research paper. It’s not a lot but it’s something. Smh ur making me laugh.

 

[scalpel]

Bro fuck up ur not an ortho lol.

I'm more than happy to provide proof to a moderator.

The suture literally splits and the midface fans out

The suture almost never splits in patients that are adults or in their late teens without any form of surgery. It's too interdigitated at that point. Again, would love to hear your clinical experience with actually using MSE on patients.

go look at any fuckin research paper.

Would love for you to link me to the clinical trials performed on a substantial sample size that demonstrated skeletal expansion and splitting of the suture in multiple adult patients using MSE alone.

 

[MXY3N]

I'm more than happy to provide proof to a moderator.



The suture almost never splits in patients that are adults or in their late teens without any form of surgery. It's too interdigitated at that point. Again, would love to hear your clinical experience with actually using MSE on patients.



Would love for you to link me to the clinical trials performed on a substantial sample size that demonstrated skeletal expansion and splitting of the suture in multiple adult patients using MSE alone.

Ronald Ead got some cheekbone improvement with the MSE. He is like 30 years old

 

[Sadboi]

I'm more than happy to provide proof to a moderator.



The suture almost never splits in patients that are adults or in their late teens without any form of surgery. It's too interdigitated at that point. Again, would love to hear your clinical experience with actually using MSE on patients.



Would love for you to link me to the clinical trials performed on a substantial sample size that demonstrated skeletal expansion and splitting of the suture in multiple adult patients using MSE alone.

Go on then mate show us ur dentistry degree. Where is ur proof it doesn’t split suture?? I don’t need to prove it does, it’s common knowledge. Would you like to show me data that it doesn’t split the suture?

 

[scalpel]

Ronald Ead got some cheekbone improvement with the MSE. He is like 30 years old
View attachment 885441

Based on photos properly taken with the same angle, facial expression from this thread it does not appear his cheekbones have changed at all. Those photos also show that he didn't form a diastema (space) between his front teeth which is how you can tell the suture has split and skeletal expansion has been achieved. All he's experienced is dental tipping.

 

[aspieSavage]

I'm more than happy to provide proof to a moderator.



The suture almost never splits in patients that are adults or in their late teens without any form of surgery. It's too interdigitated at that point. Again, would love to hear your clinical experience with actually using MSE on patients.



Would love for you to link me to the clinical trials performed on a substantial sample size that demonstrated skeletal expansion and splitting of the suture in multiple adult patients using MSE alone.

No fucking way, you are an orthodontist JFL. You are too misinformed.

 

[scalpel]

Go on then mate show us ur dentistry degree. Where is ur proof it doesn’t split suture?? I don’t need to prove it does, it’s common knowledge. Would you like to show me data that it doesn’t split the suture?

I'm not posting my dental degree online for angry incels to attempt to dox me. I'll happily verify with a moderator. Alternatively, I'd encourage you to ask an orthodontist "Hey, what's something I can ask that only an orthodontist would know and wouldn't be able to look up online?" and I can answer that way too.

 

[scalpel]

No fucking way, you are an orthodontist JFL. You are too misinformed.

I wonder what's more likely: that a user showed up here and pretended to be an orthodontist, or that it turns out a bunch of teenagers online don't actually know anything about orthodontics?

 

[MXY3N]

Based on photos properly taken with the same angle, facial expression from this thread it does not appear his cheekbones have changed at all. Those photos also show that he didn't form a diastema (space) between his front teeth which is how you can tell the suture has split and skeletal expansion has been achieved. All he's experienced is dental tipping.

 

[aspieSavage]

I wonder what's more likely: that a user showed up here and pretended to be an orthodontist, or that it turns out a bunch of teenagers online don't actually know anything about orthodontics?

The suture can be surgically split making MSE viable at any age.

 

[Deleted member 8172]

No fucking way, you are an orthodontist JFL. You are too misinformed.

He's trying to stop people from ascending

 

[aspieSavage]

He's trying to stop people from ascending

I mean tbh MSE ain't ascending anyone

 

[scalpel]

The suture can be surgically split making MSE viable at any age.

Of course it can be surgically split. You should re-read my comment above:

"The suture almost never splits in patients that are adults or in their late teens without any form of surgery. "

 

[Deleted member 8172]

I mean tbh MSE ain't ascending anyone

its still improves your zygos and gives you a nice smile after you finish braces

 

[scalpel]

You should have just linked to his website that showed his X-rays confirming the split. I didn't realize his MSE was performed with miniscrews as well which sometimes gets you suture split (in his case it did).

 

[Sadboi]

Based on photos properly taken with the same angle, facial expression from this thread it does not appear his cheekbones have changed at all. Those photos also show that he didn't form a diastema (space) between his front teeth which is how you can tell the suture has split and skeletal expansion has been achieved. All he's experienced is dental tipping.

Google MSE results, majority adults who have what you say, diastema between teeth, split suture and therefore, laterally expanded maxillary. As you said before right? But then you said adults can’t split it? So where’s you’re evidence? you’re all I’ve the place mate.

 

[aspieSavage]

its still improves your zygos and gives you a nice smile after you finish braces

It makes the zygos wider which is a looksmin bc its gives the illusion that the eyes are closer together.

 

[scalpel]

Google MSE results, majority adults who have what you say, diastema between teeth, split suture and therefore, laterally expanded maxillary. As you said before right? But then you said adults can’t split it? So where’s you’re evidence? you’re all I’ve the place mate.

Imagine going through training, performing MSE on actual patients, reviewing the literature...and then having a teenager tell you to "Google MSE results". This place is unbelievable.

 

[Pumanator]

From what I know the sature does split if it's surgically assisted at male when your growth plates are closed. I also watched all the videos of jawhacks where he talked with providers and they said the same. It splits, but you need surgery assistance and females dont need surgery assistance disregarding their age.
Even with surgery it still can fail.

The results are really hit or miss. At jawhacks it looked good. I have seen results where somebody had it and her forehead was way narrower then her zygos giving a chipmunk like appearance. Also the nose get widened. Looking at the few results I saw it really depends on the width of the forehead how it looks.

 

[Sadboi]

Imagine going through training, performing MSE on actual patients, reviewing the literature...and then having a teenager tell you to "Google MSE results". This place is unbelievable.

You say it’s unbelievable and yet show no evidence to back your claim? Btw I’m an astronaut I’ve literally ascended physically.

 

[scalpel]

You say it’s unbelievable and yet show no evidence to back your claim? Btw I’m an astronaut I’ve literally ascended physically.

You told me to "go look at any fuckin research paper". I asked you to produce said paper and got nothing in return. Now you're asking me for evidence. Nice flow of logic there.

 

[( ( ( d[-_-]b ) ) )]

.

 

[Sadboi]

You told me to "go look at any fuckin research paper". I asked you to produce said paper and got nothing in return. Now you're asking me for evidence. Nice flow of logic there.

Shove that dentistry degree up ur ass bro u know shit

 

[scalpel]

Shove that dentistry degree up ur ass bro u know shit

Really intelligent response here. I'm glad you're taking this opportunity to educate yourself and not just lashing out because you found out you might be wrong about something.

For those of you who are adults/teenagers past the age of 18 and wondering about expanding your maxilla: SARPE can split the suture but at that point you're undergoing surgery, which has its risks. MARPE can maybe split the suture. Standard MSE will not split the suture. But even for those of you that choose to undergo surgery and do this, benefit to the appearance of the cheekbones is pretty minimal.

If you have any other questions feel free to ask. Good luck everyone.

 

[Pumanator]

I was pro MSE, but after some results I think it's most likely a looksmin. Here are some results.
I couldn't fine the result of the woman who turned into a chipmunk. I couldn't find the result on a male, but the zygos looks way over projected and pointed sticking outward.

https://looksmax.org/threads/rate-mse-result.242714/

https://looksmax.org/threads/30-days-of-amazing-mse-result.249726/

https://looksmax.org/threads/insane-mse-skull-mri-results-from-dr-ting.243914/#post-4181311

MSE GODLY RESULT

Insane look at the frontal. One issue could be the zygo to maxilla relashionship (Convex malar tissue) but that could be fixed either with lf1 or FM I’m sure.

looksmax.org

 

[Sadboi]

Really intelligent response here. I'm glad you're taking this opportunity to educate yourself and not just lashing out because you found out you might be wrong about something.

For those of you who are adults/teenagers past the age of 18 and wondering about expanding your maxilla: SARPE can split the suture but at that point you're undergoing surgery, which has its risks. MARPE can maybe split the suture. Standard MSE will not split the suture. But even for those of you that choose to undergo surgery and do this, benefit to the appearance of the cheekbones is pretty minimal.

If you have any other questions feel free to ask. Good luck everyone.

Can you explain the difference between standard MSE and well, what, the other one? Lol. Do you know what MSE stands for? You try to act intelligent and say unnecessary information e.g. ofcourse surgery has risk lol. I’ll keep disagreeing with you until you provide some information on your statements, I told you, you can literally google MSE expander and see the suture splitting. Honestly mate please stop ur embarrassing urself.

 

[MSEFM]

I didn't realize his MSE was performed with miniscrews as well which sometimes gets you suture split (in his case it did).

MARPE can maybe split the suture. Standard MSE will not split the suture.

For an alleged orthodontist, you don't seem to understand that MSE by definition is a type of mini-implant assisted rapid palatal expander (MARPE) using 4 TADs to anchor into the bone. That being said, it does fail to separate the suture in a significant fraction of adults, especially older men. In this study, all of the adult cases successfully split the midpalatal suture and 16 out of 30 split the pterygopalatine suture:

https://62222079-9554-470a-8702-b9943649d392.filesusr.com/ugd/87f545_5a13434a6f9f44b3b00db935b4e398ea.pdf

 

[scalpel]

Can you explain the difference between standard MSE and well, what, the other one? Lol. Do you know what MSE stands for?

Standard MSE is putting an expander in with no other appliances. It's generally banded around the teeth and turned on a frequent basis. It has no other form of adhesion to the patient.

MARPE involves microscrews in the palate addition to the banding around the teeth. Because the expander is now anchored in bone, greater skeletal force can be delivered and the suture has a higher chance of being split when the expander is turned - but again, in adults, this is still a giant maybe.

SARPE involves a cut in the bone, so interdigitation of the suture is no longer a concern and expansion can be achieved relatively easy.

You try to act intelligent and say unnecessary information e.g. ofcourse surgery has risk lol.

I do this for a living, you do this through Google. Don't confuse knowing what I'm talking about with acting intelligent.

I’ll keep disagreeing with you until you provide some information on your statements, I told you, you can literally google MSE expander and see the suture splitting. Honestly mate please stop ur embarrassing urself.

It is embarrassing...that you haven't realized "I google and see results!" tells you nothing about whether the suture split followed surgery, whether the patient was an adult or not, whether the expansion was standard MSE or MARPE, etc. Anyone can find images on Google, whether or not they clinically support your claims is an entirely different story.

Just take a minute to check your arrogance here, you have the opportunity to learn more from a professional and you're instead choosing to stoop to acting out like the teenager you are. That's why this forum doesn't get taken seriously: when people come here to provide real knowledge, the immature ones like you keep dragging it down to maintain its reputation as an incel haven.

 

[scalpel]

For an alleged orthodontist, you don't seem to understand that MSE by definition is a type of mini-implant assisted rapid palatal expander (MARPE) using 4 TADs to anchor into the bone.

MSE stands for nothing more than "maxillary skeletal expansion". MARPE is not synonymous with MSE. Most maxillary expansion is not done with miniscrews, or with surgery. It is typically performed with an RPE device that is not supported with miniscrews by default, like a Hyrax expander. We use terms like MARPE and SARPE specifically to distinguish methods of expansion beyond the standard devices. Please learn these terms before attempting to tell me what they actually mean.

That being said, it does fail to separate the suture in a significant fraction of adults, especially older men. In this study, all of the adult cases successfully split the midpalatal suture and 16 out of 30 split the pterygopalatine suture:

https://62222079-9554-470a-8702-b9943649d392.filesusr.com/ugd/87f545_5a13434a6f9f44b3b00db935b4e398ea.pdf

So shocking! Who could have seen that coming?

 

[MSEFM]

MSE stands for "maxillary skeletal expansion". MARPE is not synonymous with MSE. Please learn these terms before attempting to tell me what they actually mean.

Read the abstract of the article I just linked for you: " Maxillary Skeletal Expander (MSE) is a particular type of MARPE appliance characterized by the presence of four mini-implants positioned in the posterior part of the palate with bi-cortical engagement." MSE is a type of MARPE developed by Dr. Won Moon at UCLA.

 

[scalpel]

Read the abstract of the article I just linked for you: " Maxillary Skeletal Expander (MSE) is a particular type of MARPE appliance characterized by the presence of four mini-implants positioned in the posterior part of the palate with bi-cortical engagement." MSE is a type of MARPE developed by Dr. Won Moon at UCLA.

99% of people in the field use MSE as an acronym for maxillary expansion irrespective of method, not as an acronym for Moon's device. When people discuss the method of expansion, they use phrases like MARPE and SARPE.

If you want to use MSE interchangeably with MARPE, feel free. None of it changes my point.

 

[Sadboi]

Standard MSE is putting an expander in with no other appliances. It's generally banded around the teeth and turned on a frequent basis. It has no other form of adhesion to the patient.

MARPE involves microscrews in the palate addition to the banding around the teeth. Because the expander is now anchored in bone, greater skeletal force can be delivered and the suture has a higher chance of being split when the expander is turned - but again, in adults, this is still a giant maybe.

SARPE involves a cut in the bone, so interdigitation of the suture is no longer a concern and expansion can be achieved relatively easy.



I do this for a living, you do this through Google. Don't confuse knowing what I'm talking about with acting intelligent.



It is embarrassing...that you haven't realized "I google and see results!" tells you nothing about whether the suture split followed surgery, whether the patient was an adult or not, whether the expansion was standard MSE or MARPE, etc. Anyone can find images on Google, whether or not they clinically support your claims is an entirely different story.

Just take a minute to check your arrogance here, you have the opportunity to learn more from a professional and you're instead choosing to stoop to acting out like the teenager you are. That's why this forum doesn't get taken seriously: when people come here to provide real knowledge, the immature ones like you keep dragging it down to maintain its reputation as an incel haven.

MSE does have screws tho lol. Ur wrong at the first instant, am I fuck reading the rest of your bible.

 

[scalpel]

MSE does have screws into the skulls?


MSE does have screws tho lol. Ur wrong at the first instant, am I fuck reading the rest of your bible.

Only if you're referring to Dr. Moon's MSE device. If you want to pat yourself on the back about semantics you're not even familiar with, go ahead though.

 

[Sadboi]

99% of people in the field use MSE as an acronym for maxillary expansion irrespective of method, not as an acronym for Moon's device. When people discuss the method of expansion, they use phrases like MARPE and SARPE.

If you want to use MSE interchangeably with MARPE, feel free. None of it changes my point.

If you’ve been living under a rock, that’s what everyone in the forum understands is an MSE. Screws into the suture, splits it and expands. I’m trying to find any results on google of an MSE that doesn’t have screws but I cannot see anything.

 

[scalpel]

If you’ve been living under a rock, that’s what everyone in the forum understands is an MSE. Screws into the suture, splits it and expands. I’m trying to find any results on google of an MSE that doesn’t have screws but I cannot see anything.

Again, what do the semantics of you referring to MSE (the device) vs. me referring to MSE (maxillary expansion in general) have to do with the point being made? MARPE, MSE, whatever you want to call it still does not have a high success rate. Beyond that (and most importantly), it's not going to have a significant effect on facial aesthetics.

 

[MSEFM]

99% of people in the field use MSE as an acronym for maxillary expansion irrespective of method, not as an acronym for Moon's device. When people discuss the method of expansion, they use phrases like MARPE and SARPE.

If you want to use MSE interchangeably with MARPE, feel free. None of it changes my point.

You're just wrong. When people in the field of airway dentistry refer to "MSE" they are specifically referring to a type of MARPE with TADs long enough to engage both the palatal and nasal cortex and positioning posterior enough to oppose the resistance of the zygomatic buttresses. Won Moon branded it as "MSE" to distinguish it from other, less successful types of MARPE.

 

[scalpel]

You're just wrong. When people in the field of airway dentistry refer to "MSE" they are specifically referring to a type of MARPE with TADs long enough to engage both the palatal and nasal cortex and positioning posterior enough to oppose the resistance of the zygomatic buttresses. Won Moon branded it as "MSE" to distinguish it from other, less successful types of MARPE.

Why do I care what the people in the field of "airway dentistry" use as terminology? Airway dentistry is the latest flash in the pan for dentists hoping to expand their scope of practice.

MSE in adults has a relatively low success rate and isn't going to dramatically change your cheekbones even if you do successfully split the suture. Cope with that however you'd like.

 

[MSEFM]

MSE in adults has a relatively low success rate and isn't going to dramatically change your cheekbones even if you do successfully split the suture. Cope with that however you'd like.

In the study I linked for you, the midpalatal suture separated in 100% of patients age 13.9-26.2. I'm in my late 30s and the MSE currently in my mouth gave me a diastema and improved nasal breathing with subtle aesthetic midface improvement.

 

[yorker12]

I had surgically assisted MARPE because I pushed my ortho to skeletally anchor the expander instead of anchoring it on my teeth.

My expander only has 2 screws and I had braces on split in the middle while expanding which nicely widened my arch.

People refer to Moons MSE as the only skeletal expander, because this forums shills the fuck out of it, if people did any research they would see there are A LOT of MARPE variants.

My ortho, who is very active in the academic field knew about MSE, but wasn't convinced about the aesthetic effect/effectiveness of it(she said closed source research wasn't so promising about it as Moon claims it to be), so we went with a variant which she has experience with and was proven to help with aesthetics because of the design, it allows me to mew more effectively/stronger. So far I am very satisfied with the breathing improvements and aesthetic improvements.

Anecdotally have noticeable face width increase and my close friends have said the same thing which could be attributed to hard mewing as soon as I could with unhealed sutures + the expansion itself, but we will see for sure when I get my scans. Also my smile actually looks nice now even with the huge-ass gap in front of my teeth.

I want all of this forum to understand this: If you don't have breathing or aesthetic problems which are caused by a narrow upper arch, MSE or any expander is not going to "ascend" you or help you.

My upper jaw arch in the middle was literally curved in a bit because of mouth breathing(which was caused by unatrophied adenoids), so I am a candidate where palatal expansion would actually help, but most people with normal airways and bites trying to get MSE for aesthetic improvements are just retarded.

As for the OP's question, I was told that I would need braces 2 years from start to finish I got braces in spring, got the MARPE+surgery in july and now I am about 1/4 through the treatment.

 

[scalpel]

In the study I linked for you, the midpalatal suture separated in 100% of patients age 13.9-26.2. I'm in my late 30s and the MSE currently in my mouth gave me a diastema and improved nasal breathing with subtle aesthetic midface improvement.

Something you should be cognizant of in the paper: "with a mean age of 17.2 ± 4.2 years". They specifically conclude MSE was effective...in late adolescence, not adulthood. What you should be looking for are papers that specifically select skeletally mature, adult patients and still demonstrated consistent suture separation using MRE.

This is also a single paper with a relatively small sample size. The general consensus in the field - and by this I mean orthodontists with years of experience in private practice - is that no, you cannot consistently or reliably split the suture in adults (or even late teens) with MSE.

 

[MSEFM]

Standard MSE is putting an expander in with no other appliances. It's generally banded around the teeth and turned on a frequent basis. It has no other form of adhesion to the patient.

What does the "S" stand for then? "Skeletal" refers to the bone anchorage and suture separation.

 

[scalpel]

What does the "S" stand for then? "Skeletal" refers to the bone anchorage and suture separation.

Still refers to skeletal. When these devices are used in patients of the appropriate age, skeletal expansion is achieved because the suture can still be easily separated even without bone anchorage. Expanding young patients with your standard RPE is usually pretty easy.

 

[yorker12]

Something you should be cognizant of in the paper: "with a mean age of 17.2 ± 4.2 years". They specifically conclude MSE was effective...in late adolescence, not adulthood. What you should be looking for are papers that specifically select skeletally mature, adult patients and still demonstrated consistent suture separation using MRE.

This is also a single paper with a relatively small sample size. The general consensus in the field - and by this I mean orthodontists with years of experience in private practice - is that no, you cannot consistently or reliably split the suture in adults (or even late teens) with MSE.

Exactly what my ortho and maxfac said and what all of the consults with the "best in the world" that this forum shills surgeons said.
If youre over 18, they usually want to surgically split the palate or even do a full SARPE if your bones are developed(you're an adult)

What does the "S" stand for then? "Skeletal" refers to the bone anchorage and suture separation.

Maxilary skeletal expander is whatever can expand the maxialla skeletally, it is not that hard to understand, it does not specify bone anchorage. It could also be a standard teeth anchored hyrax expander along with SARPE which would still expand your maxilla skeletally.
If you read scientific papers, the terminology varies from paper to paper, but the claim that MSE is understood as Moons expander is just false.

 

[MSEFM]

This is also a single paper with a relatively small sample size. The general consensus in the field - and by this I mean orthodontists with years of experience in private practice - is that no, you cannot consistently or reliably split the suture in adults (or even late teens) with MSE.

If 100% of the cases ranging in age from about 14-26 years were successful in that admittedly small study, it includes those who were 18+, but I agree that the research is sparse. Here's another paper specifically about adult populations:

https://62222079-9554-470a-8702-b9943649d392.filesusr.com/ugd/87f545_b26fcb31a5fd48c1a64dbc8e0448260c.pdf

I had cortipuncture performed on my midpalatal suture to help facilitate disarticulation.

 

[scalpel]

Exactly what my ortho and maxfac said and what all of the consults with the "best in the world" that this forum shills surgeons said.
If youre over 18, they usually want to surgically split the palate or even do a full SARPE if your bones are developed(you're an adult)

I think that's the unfortunate problem with this forum: it's easy for users to find a single paper or two about a technique or procedure that has results they want, and so they start ignoring what the profession's clinical experience/real world outcomes actually are.