Downsides of MSE?

[Deleted member 11126]

What are the biggest cons besides asymmetry? Best competitor or second options?

 

[6ft4]

If your maxilla is recessed, you are widening a bone that is already recessed, therefore putting MORE recessed bone on your skull

 

[Deleted member 11126]

If your maxilla is recessed, you are widening a bone that is already recessed, therefore putting MORE recessed bone on your skull

Probably will get facemask with it this will make that a bit better

 

[buflek]

makes nose wider
painful
expensive
doesnt make a huge difference for many people

 

[buflek]

Probably will get facemask with it this will make that a bit better

facemask doesnt do a lot, there isn’t enough research etc avout it

 

[Deleted member 11126]

facemask doesnt do a lot, there isn’t enough research etc avout it

a lot of it depends how much you use it but you gotta wear it 20+ hours a day.

Worse comes to worse bimax

 

[NegativeNorwood]

Cone shaped expansion pattern, meaning more expansion on anterior teeth than posterior teeth, which won't give you the mogger full, 12 tooth smile. Take a look at this posts for more info:

12 tooth smile is an unmoggable trait. Swallow the smilepill.

Meanwhile the guy who your crush rubs herself to at night (I count 6) 8, and would look even better with a wider palate and less visible buccal corridors, like everyone else.

looksmax.org

 

[Deleted member 11126]

Cone shaped expansion pattern, meaning more expansion on anterior teeth than posterior teeth, which won't give you the mogger full, 12 tooth smile. Take a look at this posts for more info:

12 tooth smile is an unmoggable trait. Swallow the smilepill.

Meanwhile the guy who your crush rubs herself to at night (I count 6) 8, and would look even better with a wider palate and less visible buccal corridors, like everyone else.

looksmax.org

Thanks bro

 

[ascension!]

The best alternative in my opinion is BioBloc. It depends on the reason why you are considering receiving the treatment, on how difficult it's to solve your problem and also if you are already an adult, because it will be incredibly slow. The best course of action is to consult your orthodontist. However, be sure to consider your age. If Biobloc doesn't work, they would give you alternatives.

 

[Pumanator]

Wider nose, assemetry, upper palette and lower teeth need to fit properly. Slight change to eye area.

 

[fruitgunpop]

Cone shaped expansion pattern, meaning more expansion on anterior teeth than posterior teeth, which won't give you the mogger full, 12 tooth smile. Take a look at this posts for more info:

12 tooth smile is an unmoggable trait. Swallow the smilepill.

Meanwhile the guy who your crush rubs herself to at night (I count 6) 8, and would look even better with a wider palate and less visible buccal corridors, like everyone else.

looksmax.org

Thoughts on Biobloc?

 

[Deleted member 2729]

If you dont have a very narrow palate its all in all a shit surgery

 

[Deleted member 11126]

If you dont have a very narrow palate its all in all a shit surgery

I have a pretty narrow smile only 6-8 teeth are visible in my smile

 

[Seth Walsh]

It's like trying to rip a piece of paper perfectly down the middle. You can't really guarantee bilateral expansion with complete precision. Why don't you try SARPE+FM? Atleast with SARPE you will split your pterygomaxillary suture too so you can achieve forward growth more easily without needed to cut actual bone or do LF1.

 

[Deleted member 11126]

It's like trying to rip a piece of paper perfectly down the middle. You can't really guarantee bilateral expansion with complete precision. Why don't you try SARPE+FM? Atleast with SARPE you will split your pterygomaxillary suture too so you can achieve forward growth more easily without needed to cut actual bone or do LF1.

I'm doing it to open my airway expansion is another benefit too. Couldn't the facemax also achieve forward growth with it?

 

[Seth Walsh]

I'm doing it to open my airway expansion is another benefit too. Couldn't the facemax also achieve forward growth with it?

Yes but SARPE (surgically splitting sutures without using an RPE device I mean) will give the same benefits as MSE but will likely give aesthetic benefits. MSE is just an appliance that splits open the midpalatal suture by turning screws on the appliance. It's downfall is it's speed, it doesn't mimic natural growth once the MPS is split. Basically once the suture splits, the MSE appliance is likely to cause asymmetries which will hurt your aesthetics because each half of your face may not expand to the same degree.

That's why I was suggesting to try get your sutures surgically split, then use an appliance that'll give slower and more aesthetically pleasing results, like a vivos DNA appliance. A facemask might even work but that won't expand your palate and dental arch like a vivos appliance would. MSE's downfall really is its speed. The expanded maxilla never looks great aesthetically after.

 

[Deleted member 15827]

Yes but SARPE will give the same benefits as MSE but will likely give aesthetic benefits. MSE is just an appliance that splits open the midpalatal suture by turning screws on the appliance. It's downfall is it's speed, it doesn't mimic natural growth once the MPS is split. Basically once the suture splits, the MSE appliance is likely to cause asymmetries which will hurt your aesthetics because each half of your face may not expand to the same degree.

That's why I was suggesting to try get your sutures surgically split, then use an appliance that'll give slower and more aesthetically pleasing results, like a vivos DNA appliance. A facemask might even work but that won't expand your palate and dental arch like a vivos appliance would. MSE's downfall really is its speed. The expanded maxilla never looks great aesthetically after.

If I just want wider lips which is best

 

[Seth Walsh]

If I just want wider lips which is best

I really don't know how to widen lips. Seems kind of impossible to actually do that unless you jokERmaxx or do a fishtail flap surgery but all of that is stupid.

Depending on how your mouth area harmony is, an alarplasty and lip lift can give the illusion of wider lips. Or even just practicing your smile more. Or mewing consistently forever could probably give a better lip/mouth appearance but it's a very slow process. There's not really any quick ways to make your lips wider, or any way to do it imo. I never tried the widening appliances but I just don't see how they can work functionally? They wouldn't make your lips wider, they'd just rip they edges of your lips, right ?

 

[Deleted member 11126]

Yes but SARPE (surgically splitting sutures without using an RPE device I mean) will give the same benefits as MSE but will likely give aesthetic benefits. MSE is just an appliance that splits open the midpalatal suture by turning screws on the appliance. It's downfall is it's speed, it doesn't mimic natural growth once the MPS is split. Basically once the suture splits, the MSE appliance is likely to cause asymmetries which will hurt your aesthetics because each half of your face may not expand to the same degree.

That's why I was suggesting to try get your sutures surgically split, then use an appliance that'll give slower and more aesthetically pleasing results, like a vivos DNA appliance. A facemask might even work but that won't expand your palate and dental arch like a vivos appliance would. MSE's downfall really is its speed. The expanded maxilla never looks great aesthetically after.

You can choose to turn the screws slower most of the people with issues say they turn too much each day.

 

[NegativeNorwood]

Thoughts on Biobloc?

Avoid at all costs. It's on the same category as Invisalign with mandibular advancement (ITMA), it works against any posterior skeletal treatment.

Don’t mew if you plan on getting MSE

Disclaimer: I am not an orthotropics expert. Take this post with a grain of salt. Why shouldn’t you mew if you’re going to get MSE in the future? Mewing expands the palate by pushing the teeth farther apart, but it doesn’t expand the bone of the maxilla. On the contrary, MSE expands the lower...

looksmax.org

The device used is weak compared to even the SARPE and MSE devices, which need to be placed with an osteotomy cut in people over 16 years old to work correctly. That's how useless it is.
For a wider palate, better to have EASE, and surgery after if mandibular advancement is needed (Lefort 1 + IMDO or Bimax).

 

[Deleted member 2729]

I have a pretty narrow smile only 6-8 teeth are visible in my smile

that, is brutal

 

[Deleted member 11126]

that, is brutal

Yeah so should I get MSE?

 

[Deleted member 2729]

Yeah so should I get MSE?

show me pic of your face and then your smile and then I can give my input otherwise it will be brutal

 

[mvp2v1]

View attachment 1825077
Wider nose, assemetry, upper palette and lower teeth need to fit properly. Slight change to eye area.

Why did the mandible change? And wouldn’t all pallet expansion result in a widening of the nose?

 

[mvp2v1]

It's like trying to rip a piece of paper perfectly down the middle. You can't really guarantee bilateral expansion with complete precision. Why don't you try SARPE+FM? Atleast with SARPE you will split your pterygomaxillary suture too so you can achieve forward growth more easily without needed to cut actual bone or do LF1.

Does SARPE come with the option to do FM?

And why does sarpe split the pterygomaxillary suture and not MSE?

 

[mvp2v1]

Yes but SARPE (surgically splitting sutures without using an RPE device I mean) will give the same benefits as MSE but will likely give aesthetic benefits. MSE is just an appliance that splits open the midpalatal suture by turning screws on the appliance. It's downfall is it's speed, it doesn't mimic natural growth once the MPS is split. Basically once the suture splits, the MSE appliance is likely to cause asymmetries which will hurt your aesthetics because each half of your face may not expand to the same degree.

That's why I was suggesting to try get your sutures surgically split, then use an appliance that'll give slower and more aesthetically pleasing results, like a vivos DNA appliance. A facemask might even work but that won't expand your palate and dental arch like a vivos appliance would. MSE's downfall really is its speed. The expanded maxilla never looks great aesthetically after.

Do you mean the speed of turning after the suture is split or the speed of turning at the beginning?

What you seem to be suggesting is to get the maxilla surgically split then go for a expander like bioblock? Why not just split with MSE or surgically and then go with a slow expansion rate?

 

[mvp2v1]

Avoid at all costs. It's on the same category as Invisalign with mandibular advancement (ITMA), it works against any posterior skeletal treatment.

Don’t mew if you plan on getting MSE

Disclaimer: I am not an orthotropics expert. Take this post with a grain of salt. Why shouldn’t you mew if you’re going to get MSE in the future? Mewing expands the palate by pushing the teeth farther apart, but it doesn’t expand the bone of the maxilla. On the contrary, MSE expands the lower...

looksmax.org

The device used is weak compared to even the SARPE and MSE devices, which need to be placed with an osteotomy cut in people over 16 years old to work correctly. That's how useless it is.
For a wider palate, better to have EASE, and surgery after if mandibular advancement is needed (Lefort 1 + IMDO or Bimax).

Certainly not in the same category as Invisalign. Looking at cases of bioblock treatment typically you get like 50% teeth expansion and 50% bone. And the goal of bioblock treatment is making enough room for the tongue so that you can properly correct the face. MSE and SARPE are def stronger than bioblock that’s for sure. But I worry about the way it expands. I’m not certain if your making a permanent unnatural change to your CFC such that you could never be truly correct. And when someone is not correct they are by definition deformed. Question is: if you get MSE or sarpe are you ensuring you could never be a model? …

 

[Seth Walsh]

Do you mean the speed of turning after the suture is split or the speed of turning at the beginning?

What you seem to be suggesting is to get the maxilla surgically split then go for a expander like bioblock? Why not just split with MSE or surgically and then go with a slow expansion rate?

I mean the speed of turning after the suture split. If he wants very aesthetic results he’d have to go very slow with the MSE. But doesn’t MSE just cause expansion? OP wants forward growth too, that’s why I’m thinking an appliance like DNA vivos might work after splitting the suture.

And yeah the suture can be split with MSE too, sorry I don’t know much about the workings of MSE tbh.

I was thinking there’d be a benefit splitting the pterygomaxillary suture surgically too, if OP really wanted forward growth without getting a lefort.

My problem with MSE is, even if you go really really slow with it, it doesn’t mimic natural forces in a way other appliances could do better. Maybe I’m just bias after hearing MSE isn’t the best appliance for reaping aesthetic benefits.

 

[Seth Walsh]

Does SARPE come with the option to do FM?

And why does sarpe split the pterygomaxillary suture and not MSE?

Tbh I’m not sure!

 

[NegativeNorwood]

Certainly not in the same category as Invisalign. Looking at cases of bioblock treatment typically you get like 50% teeth expansion and 50% bone. And the goal of bioblock treatment is making enough room for the tongue so that you can properly correct the face. MSE and SARPE are def stronger than bioblock that’s for sure. But I worry about the way it expands. I’m not certain if your making a permanent unnatural change to your CFC such that you could never be truly correct. And when someone is not correct they are by definition deformed. Question is: if you get MSE or sarpe are you ensuring you could never be a model? …

"Same category as ITMA" in the context of Sergio's post, because it works against any posterior skeletal advancement. Way better to have the jaw advancement in a separate surgery, like IMDO or Bimax in case it is needed.

"Model" is a very vague term, we are talking about wider palates here.
The best expansion is with osteotomy cut + EASE, much better and even than MSE or SARPE.

PS: I'll refrain from interacting more with you because of this:

if you're under 16 y/o you better mew

looksmax.org

 

[mvp2v1]

PS: I'll refrain from interacting more with you because of this:

if you're under 16 y/o you better mew

looksmax.org

babe? you're making our breakup public!

I'll never forgive you for this!

Seriously though, you're overreacting to that other post bro. It's just that the things you claimed I have heard countless times. Mewing works, its not cope, its the best solution if we are talking about results. Unfortunately in this world of deformed melted faces many have severe problems, and probably not the time to give mewing the sort of effort they require to get results without missing out on their youth. Its certainly sad, and more needs to be done to help both young and older people.

 

[sub5inchcel]

Yeah so should I get MSE?

when are you interviewing ronald

 

[Deleted member 20631]

"Same category as ITMA" in the context of Sergio's post, because it works against any posterior skeletal advancement. Way better to have the jaw advancement in a separate surgery, like IMDO or Bimax in case it is needed.

"Model" is a very vague term, we are talking about wider palates here.
The best expansion is with osteotomy cut + EASE, much better and even than MSE or SARPE.

PS: I'll refrain from interacting more with you because of this:

if you're under 16 y/o you better mew

looksmax.org

Could you explain what EASE is?

 

[NegativeNorwood]

Could you explain what EASE is?

Here it's well explained:

EASE |

Also, I recommend you to read from this post onwards. Silver gave very good info on it and why it's better than MSE or SARPE for palate widening:

12 tooth smile is an unmoggable trait. Swallow the smilepill.

Meanwhile the guy who your crush rubs herself to at night (I count 6) 8, and would look even better with a wider palate and less visible buccal corridors, like everyone else.

looksmax.org

 

[Deleted member 11126]

when are you interviewing ronald

Next week

 

[Deleted member 15827]

I really don't know how to widen lips. Seems kind of impossible to actually do that unless you jokERmaxx or do a fishtail flap surgery but all of that is stupid.

Depending on how your mouth area harmony is, an alarplasty and lip lift can give the illusion of wider lips. Or even just practicing your smile more. Or mewing consistently forever could probably give a better lip/mouth appearance but it's a very slow process. There's not really any quick ways to make your lips wider, or any way to do it imo. I never tried the widening appliances but I just don't see how they can work functionally? They wouldn't make your lips wider, they'd just rip they edges of your lips, right ?

Apparently they slowly break the tissue at the corners causing new tissue to be built over months idk how it works tho tbh

 

[ChristianChad]

makes nose wider

Most of the expansion is paranasal and rarely visible
And your face in ideal conditions widens proportionally aswell

 

[ChristianChad]

Cone shaped expansion pattern, meaning more expansion on anterior teeth than posterior teeth, which won't give you the mogger full, 12 tooth smile. Take a look at this posts for more info:

12 tooth smile is an unmoggable trait. Swallow the smilepill.

Meanwhile the guy who your crush rubs herself to at night (I count 6) 8, and would look even better with a wider palate and less visible buccal corridors, like everyone else.

looksmax.org

Useless question I think but I wonder what if the corticopuncture is done halfway across the midline suture from the back towards the front stopping halfway would you get more posterior expansion or is it too unpredictable?

 

[mvp2v1]

Most of the expansion is paranasal and rarely visible
And your face in ideal conditions widens proportionally aswell

For what its worth: MSE like all of these appliences are tools to aid in xyz. For a good result you have to chew. I have spoken to a bunch of MSE goers and the ones with best results and least issues turn slowly and chew plenty. The more chewing you do when expanding with any device the better your results will be.

 

[ChristianChad]

The best alternative in my opinion is BioBloc. It depends on the reason why you are considering receiving the treatment, on how difficult it's to solve your problem and also if you are already an adult, because it will be incredibly slow. The best course of action is to consult your orthodontist. However, be sure to consider your age. If Biobloc doesn't work, they would give you alternatives.

Beyond 13 using BioBloc is dangerous and will damage dental-alevolar health.
From 16 onwards it's ideal to use bone anchored expanders

 

[ascension!]

Beyond 13 using BioBloc is dangerous and will damage dental-alevolar health.
From 16 onwards it's ideal to use bone anchored expanders

What would you recommend in a 15y/o kiddo?

 

[ChristianChad]

tools to aid in xyz

I have nighttime autism please clarify for me, what do you mean xyz?

Spoiler

this?

For a good result you have to chew. I have spoken to a bunch of MSE goers and the ones with best results and least issues turn slowly and chew plenty. The more chewing you do when expanding with any device the better your results will be.

What is a good result in this context? And why is chewing beneficial when using maxillary expanders?

Regardless I don't understand this but I'll keep this in mind.

 

[ChristianChad]

What would you recommend in a 15y/o kiddo?

I'm really not sure, I'm trying to figure out myself at 17. You look fairly young faced so I think your bone age could be 13-14 in a good case because your not as chronologically far along puberty as you "should be" for your age.

The most reliable choice would be MSE. Your maxilla is recessed and needs to come forward so MSE+FACEMASK would be ideal. The ,,problem" is that you don't have an underbite, so it would mess up your bite.

Maybe it could be worth doing this a bit later along puberty. In the meantime just don't let them extract any permanent teeth or put any braces on you, and maybe do some expansion with bone anchored type of device. Because I'm not sure if it would be good to use tooth-borne devices at your age.

 

[ascension!]

I'm really not sure, I'm trying to figure out myself at 17. You look fairly young faced so I think your bone age could be 13-14 in a good case because your not as chronologically far along puberty as you "should be" for your age.

The most reliable choice would be MSE. Your maxilla is recessed and needs to come forward so MSE+FACEMASK would be ideal. The ,,problem" is that you don't have an underbite, so it would mess up your bite.

Maybe it could be worth doing this a bit later along puberty. In the meantime just don't let them extract any permanent teeth or put any braces on you, and maybe do some expansion with bone anchored type of device. Because I'm not sure if it would be good to use tooth-borne devices at your age.

MSE, EASE or SARPE? Yesterday I had a baby tooth extracted and as a result of that my tongue fits perfectly in my palate, since that tooth was a canine which caused crowding and this tooth was crooked "backward".

 

[ChristianChad]

MSE, EASE or SARPE?

So this is what I think, expansion with MSE/MARPE (bone-tooth borne device) to avoid crowding (reliable expansion, tooth-borne device may work but may be unreliable in dental arch expansion, MSE will pretty much surely work and less potential damage to teeth) and then a tooth borne device afterwards to avoid relapse. The reason for another device after expansion is so your teeth will not relapse to their old positions, and because I would avoid using the fixed retainer they put after using braces to close your diastema after MSE is complete in order to not stunt your still growing maxilla. Another option instead of a tooth-borne device after MSE to avoid relapse is religiously mewing, I tried to find info on this some time ago and I came to the conclusion that you could avoid relapse post MSE from just mewing, but this DOES NOT always work and you really have to do it religiously, and if you don't do it and don't have a retainer you will relapse. But these anecdotes I read online from people who didn't have a relapse when they didn't wear their retainer while mewing, were only applicable for those who didn't wear the retainer you wear at night, in those anecdotes if I recall correctly they would have still worn the fixed retainer for 1 year after the MSE and post expansion braces. MSE treatment usually goes like this (not 100% sure):
MSE for 4-12 weeks/more --> closing the post-expansion diastema with braces for 3 months - 1 year --> fixed retainer for 1 year --> removable retainer you wear at night for the rest of your life. Im not sure how you could do this so you don't inhibit your natural jaw growth.

EASE I don't know where to get and SARPE is unnecessary at your age. Your bones are more malleable then a 20 year old and your sutures aren't as far along in their fissure so I hope it'll be less likely to cause assymtries. Although, with MSE it could be that the expansion will mostly be dental and not skeletal (meaning your dental arch will get wider but not your maxilla necessarily), just because you are younger and the alevolar bone will give out sooner then the maxillary sutures (though this is just what I think and is my theory, I don't know the material on this) especially if you don't expand a big amount like more then 5-7mms (?). This is even supposedly common in adults, minimal skeletal expansion and mostly dental expansion. So probably for big changes in Maxilla and not just wider dental arch you would need to expand a ton, and this would limit future possible expansion with MSE as explained in this thread: https://looksmax.org/threads/dont-mew-if-you-plan-on-getting-mse.167250/post-2929327 because your potential for expansion is more limited.
So actually now that I think about it a SARPE could be useful in this regard, to insure there is skeletal expansion.
So maybe DNA appliance combined with surgically cutting the sutures could also be appropriate in your case. Or corticopuncture facilitated (surgically assisted) MSE, I recall they sometimes pierce the Mid-palatal/Mid-maxillary suture to "loosen" it.

Honestly with all these considerations I wonder if it is even worth expanding at all right now. Unless you can get majority skeletal-expansion somehow. So maybe SARPE? But somehow so your lower maxilla isn't detached from the rest of your zygomaticomaxillary complex

This is all just big speculation, I don't know the ideal solution and ideal treatment for you. Hopefully more knowledge users could give their views

 

[Deleted member 11126]

For what its worth: MSE like all of these appliences are tools to aid in xyz. For a good result you have to chew. I have spoken to a bunch of MSE goers and the ones with best results and least issues turn slowly and chew plenty. The more chewing you do when expanding with any device the better your results will be.

What does chewing do?

 

[ChristianChad]

What does chewing do?

I have spoke to him in length in the past and from a number of convos I suspect he has schizophrenia or very brain damaged. He has pathological delusions where he thinks his tongue can change the bones on his face and I think this is something connected, in his mind chewing can somehow remodel his face. Repeated delusions of a figure from his imagination exists. It's that of a man he calls "Mike Mew" with his own medical practice which warps patients faces with tongues.
He has visual hallucinations where he sees his face changing because of his tongue and says there are other people on online platforms who share anecdotes of similar delusions.

 

[Deleted member 11126]

I have spoke to him in length in the past and from a number of convos I suspect he has schizophrenia or very brain damaged. He has pathological delusions where he thinks his tongue can change the bones on his face and I think this is something connected, in his mind chewing can somehow remodel his face. Repeated delusions of a figure from his imagination exists. It's that of a man he calls "Mike Mew" with his own medical practice which warps patients faces with tongues.
He has visual hallucinations where he sees his face changing because of his tongue and says there are other people on online platforms who share anecdotes of similar delusions.

check your discord I gotta ask you something

 

[mvp2v1]

I have nighttime autism please clarify for me, what do you mean xyz?

Spoiler

undefined

I just mean fix your face I guess. (Or perhaps more specifically expanding in the most natural way possible)

What is a good result in this context? And why is chewing beneficial when using maxillary expanders?

Good result is refering to greater forward growth. Why? I’m not sure but it’s the trend.

I have spoke to him in length in the past and from a number of convos I suspect he has schizophrenia or very brain damaged. He has pathological delusions where he thinks his tongue can change the bones on his face and I think this is something connected, in his mind chewing can somehow remodel his face. Repeated delusions of a figure from his imagination exists. It's that of a man he calls "Mike Mew" with his own medical practice which warps patients faces with tongues.
He has visual hallucinations where he sees his face changing because of his tongue and says there are other people on online platforms who share anecdotes of similar delusions.

Braces work.