(Game) BEING GOOD LOOKING WILL ONLY GUARANTEE ONE THING

[Looks234]

How do you define game ? Cuz my definition is completely from everyone else’s. And game doesn’t just stop with women.

It includes all aspects of your life

Isn’t game just like how you act and talk

 

[tyronelite]

What do you think physical attraction is? Just the face? Because most users here know it’s more than that

Physical attraction just means she finds you attractive. Doesn’t mean she wants to fuck you

 

[Cain]

Yeah cuz she’s not SEXUALLY ATTRACTED to the guy.

Physical attraction and sexual attraction are not the SAME

But why would girls talk about wanting to have sex with you if they don't find you SEXUALLY appealing? It literally makes no sense.

 

[Deleted member 13945]

We’re just going in circles at this point..

I’ll end at this. Physical attraction can be part of your sexual attraction but if you act goofy, feminine, you act needy, etc she’s not going to be sexually attracted to you & therefore you ain’t smashing

i feel where ur comijng from but except for needy i act like a fucking retarded and she still wants to smash

 

[Deleted member 3270]

You're clearly a fellow intelligent black man @tyronelite

 

[tyronelite]

Isn’t game just like how you act and talk

No. I’ll make a thread explaining what Game is on deeper level. Not how most people define game

 

[Deleted member 12611]

brb making a response thread

Destroy this retarded thread.

 

[Deleted member 13945]

Isn’t game just like how you act and talk

no thats forza horizon 4

 

[Deleted member 12611]

If you are a good looking guy, or what women consider good looking some women will find you physically attractive & you'll have more attention. THATS IT

WRONG!
Being hot doesn't just guarantee attention, it guarantees POSITIVE ATTENTION. And not just any positive attention, but positive attention such that she finds you sexually appealing (that is what being "hot" means), and positive attention such that everything else about you appears better (the halo effect). These positives cause people to behave differently around you, which causes an improvement in your quality of life. How can you be a regular user here and be so unbelievably unable to learn such that you don't even pick up on that?

 

[Deleted member 12611]

Being good looking does not guarantee women will find you sexually appealing

Reminder that this is not sexually appealing to women to you:

 

[Deleted member 39]

I'd pick #1 so I stopped reading after that

 

[tyronelite]

i feel where ur comijng from but except for needy i act like a fucking retarded and she still wants to smash

Yeah of course women will give you couple chances. But if you keep up the neediness she’s gone lol

 

[Deleted member 12611]

Being good looking does not guarantee women will find you sexually appealing..
​

Now can it help you in certain situations? Of course.. She'll give you the extra 15-30 sec to hear you out.

No jfl, they will completely change their behaviour around you and if you are attractive enough they will want to fuck you even if you're a serial killer. Jfl at 15-30 seconds. Women will want to hook up with you and crush on you just because you are good looking. Women will get crushes on you knowing nothing about you, fantasizing about you daily when you haven't said a word to them.

 

[chadison]

I wanted to wait a little to respond to see what others would say first.

I can't inherently disagree with your thread. I think it's very well written overall. However, I think there are two things that should have been added to prevent the attacks in the comments:

1) Looks always do matter, and they matter the most by default because if you don't cross the woman's threshold, she won't fuck you. However, that threshold is lower than what most would like to believe and after it is crossed, many other factors come into play that can make a HTN more appealing overall than a chadlite, or even a chad. Looks ALSO raise the bar for your selectivity. Mate-matching is a real thing in that couples of similar attractiveness ratings tend to be dominant. Thus, your chance of a stacy finding you more appealing after a proper rhinoplasty, gymcelling, and hair transplant greatly increase if those were issues before; your dating pool expands according to looks, but this does not guarantee any success still.

2) Looks guarantee an easier time with women. However, as you mentioned, they DO NOT guarantee any success. The better you look, the more the door opens, the more you can make mistakes (you already basically covered this in your responses to comments, but I'm just clarifying it here). However, a woman will wait for you on the other side, and you still have to not slip on the walk over (what you say, how you act 100% MATTERS). Seems like we took a little venture back to the red pill and Rollo Tomassi with this thread, but these ventures are well needed. Debates like this are what helps the forum wake up from its echo chamber slumber and come closer to a universal theory of sexual attraction regarding both sexes.

When the cope is too strong

Girls will throw themselves to a real chad, asking him to fuck in DMs

Gamma: The problem with your response here is that you utilize sweeping generalizations and a hasty retreat towards comforting coping mechanisms that excuse your failure. I used to do this same thing a lot too: "Well, if I'm not a natural chad, I shouldn't try, women already have Chad in their DMs." If so, how did I manage to have sex with multiple "Stacylites" as a "Normie" according to this forum? Are the ratings here too low, are my ratings of the women too high, or is it the fact that there are multiple factors in sexual attraction? I'd like to think the first and the third after being on here long enough. "Oh, well she couldn't get Chad so she settled for you." Ok, sure. But how come she came 3 times when I had sex with her? Isn't that evident that I had enough sex appeal to please her? How come she hit me up a few weeks later asking to fuck again? As you actually try to looksmaxx and rid of your autism, you realize these statements are defense mechanisms set up by your mind to protect your ego. I'm not trying to argue with you; I'm simply stating an observable fact in this thread. I'm pretty sure you're a good-looking dude (if that's you in your avatar) and if so, you could be having way more success by working on social skills. You also comment that "I had a chadlite friend in HS that had a low tier becky asking to fuck." That's one, ONE example. You don't know the context behind those DMs, how long before they had been talking, and if he had others hitting him up. This example is a colossal failure at proving your point because it is merely one piece of anecdotal and incomplete evidence. "Muh tinder studies muh Amnesia." Whatever, I'm done discussing.

Also looking forward to this thread, "Find your niche appeal. (Women have specific types they go for)." I agree with this concept, and I'd like to hear what you have to say about it. Women, from my experience, have niches towards phenotype, muscularity, bad boy looks, dark triad, even beta provider sometimes.

Overall, great thread. Close to BOTB worthy IMO, if you elaborated upon those three points I raised at the beginning a little more.

Phew, that was a lot

 

[Deleted member 12611]

You have 2 choices
1) You can have women think you're good looking but you won't be fucking
2) You can have women think whatever they think about you, & you're fucking

How can you say something this retarded, I am in awe. Why isn't there a choice where she thinks I'm good looking and I do fuck her? How can a woman's thoughts not matter in regards to fucking her if you are not literally raping her? You have simply created an incomplete set of choices to justify your incoherent point.

 

[Deleted member 12611]

I think it's very well written overall.

If you think this is well written you have standards lower than the mariana trench. This might be the worst written thread on this site. I am amazed at how bad it is.

 

[Deleted member 12611]

You only want to be good looking cuz you think it'll get you closer to fucking. See you guys think it's going to be EASIER to get a woman to fuck.. no no no it's going to be EASIER to get a woman's ATTENTION

Jfl. You didn't talk about what type of attention this was because as soon as you would have the jig would be up, and your argument would crumble.

A woman gives you positive attention, and this positive attention is positive such that she is sexually attracted to you and everything else about you seems better. If 6'5 Maher walked by her, she wouldn't just give him attention, she would give him sexual attention. Are you implying Tyler Maher is just as close to fucking a girl as a severe birdcel when they are both walking by her?

 

[chadison]

If you think this is well written you have standards lower than the mariana trench. This might be the worst written thread on this site. I am amazed at how bad it is.

What are your critiques summarized in a bullet point list, then? Adding them concisely with reasoning can only help us to come to an agreement on just how much looks matter and what they can do.

 

[pakipassion]

Good looks result in positive feedback , that increases confidence of average person , average person has low self esteem and is always looking for encourgements and validations for confidence , getting true confidence when you dont need others approaval is tough and required lot of mental conditioning , average person is very dependent on early positive feedback to forward his game , for average peroson looks are important to get laid.

 

[Deleted member 10330]

Good thread. Shame so many retards commented on it.

 

[Deleted member 12611]

Being good looking does not guarantee sex..
Being good looking does not guarantee you a girlfriend..
Being good looking does not guarantee women will find you sexually appealing.

Here you are just abusing the word "guarantee" to make your point.
As long as a statement is not analytic, then it's truth is not guaranteed.

For instance, going to a prostitute does not guarantee sex, since you could get a heart attack right before you have sex with her. Aka, having sex is not intrinsic to going to a prostitute (if it was then it would be analytic).

In the same way, looking like chico does not guarantee that you will be sexually attractive to a girl, since being sexually attracted to chico is not part of the definition of being a girl.

All theories of causality are non-analytic though, so when we are looking for what causes sexual attraction, being in a relationship, or having a girlfriend, it doesn't matter if there is no guarantee. Of course there will be no guarantee, we are no longer dealing with analytic propositions. What matters is the relations which the empirical evidence shows. This is how theories of causality are developed.

And you wanna know what the evidence shows?

 

[Deleted member 12611]

What are your critiques summarized in a bullet point list, then? Adding them concisely with reasoning can only help us to come to an agreement on just how much looks matter and what they can do.

Im not doing all of that shit. Just look at my comments to find my opinions. They each contain reasons why I reject them, as well as an example.

I have literally destroyed every paragraph of this garbage thread.

Now if you don't mind I'll take my leave from it.

 

[eduardkoopman]

Being good looking does not guarantee women will find you sexually appealing..​

Now can it help you in certain situations? Of course.. She'll give you the extra 15-30 sec to hear you out. But everything else after that you need to be sexually appealing to get her in bed.

there's a difference between physical attraction & sexual attraction. Yes physical attraction can be part of the reason why she had sex with you but sexual attraction is not synonymous with physical attraction. ​

it's not synonumous, true that.

But you are basically implying there is low/limited correlation between: Physical attraction and sexual attraction.
Defenition of both terms, you didn't give very clearly imo.
But imo, there is BIG correlation between how attractive you look; and how sexually attractive a woman finds you.

For her to smash with you. She may regularly need other factors to be there also, that is true. Like not being very anti-social, or very poor, or etc.. etc...

 

[dnrd]

what happened to this site man, bluepillers are so cringe

 

[Deleted member 12611]

But imo, there is BIG correlation between how attractive you look; and how sexually attractive a woman finds you.

He doesn't understand that you can't ague against a theory of causality by saying one thing doesn't guarantee the other, but only by providing empirical evidence that that is not the case generally. This is just sad.

 

[bernanddrago]

If you are a good looking guy, or what women consider good looking some women will find you physically attractive & you'll have more attention. THATS IT

What does that mean?

All it means is a woman will see you & she'll say

"He looks good" Full Stop

"He's handsome" Full stop

"He's so hot" Full stop

UNDERSTAND THIS

Being good looking does not guarantee sex..
Being good looking does not guarantee you a girlfriend..
Being good looking does not guarantee women will find you sexually appealing..
​

Now can it help you in certain situations? Of course.. She'll give you the extra 15-30 sec to hear you out. But everything else after that you need to be sexually appealing to get her in bed.

​

See the problem is a lot of you guys still don't understand there's a difference between physical attraction & sexual attraction. Yes physical attraction can be part of the reason why she had sex with you but sexual attraction is not synonymous with physical attraction.

Being good looking is not the end all be all to have sex.

You have 2 choices
1) You can have women think you're good looking but you won't be fucking
2) You can have women think whatever they think about you, & you're fucking
​

Most of you would pick #2. You only want to be good looking cuz you think it'll get you closer to fucking. See you guys think it's going to be EASIER to get a woman to fuck.. no no no it's going to be EASIER to get a woman's ATTENTION. It's only easy to fuck if she finds you SEXUALLY APPEALING (another thread).

All you are is eye candy to most women.. the same way you stare at that stacy but you don't approach is the same way women are with good looking guys. They'll stare at you but they'll rarely make the move.

You being physically attractive can turn her on to the point she's sexually attracted to you because of the way you look, but in a lot of cases that's not how it goes. If a woman was just sexually attracted to a guy strictly to the way he looks, women would be fucking non stop lol

Data from men using tinder

View attachment 1152291

View attachment 1152292

vs your average chick using tinder JFL

View attachment 1152293

And my favorite from this normie #RIP

View attachment 1152306
​

I'm sure some of you guys had women who called you "handsome", "hot", etc and you didn't smash. Even Amnesia's tinder threads prove my point about it doesn't just end at being good looking. Most of us agree Amnesia is a "good looking guy" so why does he struggle & complain about some of his matches? Not putting him on blast, I'm just proving my points

Tinder date just left after 7 minutes (PART 2)

Read part 1 linked below But the TLDR is i matched a girl on a saturday night at like 3am and she came over immediately, thinking this was a certain easy fuck, she stayed 7 minutes and said she had to go leaving me like WTF happened. Like two months later, wondering why I got ghosted I sent her...

looksmax.org

I messaged over 35 girls across all my dating platforms trying to get some hangout tn

Fri night - I have like 2 girls semi responding tough life this dumb cunt

looksmax.org

Tinder date just left after 7 minutes

We match at 3am, she messages first whats up. We chat a bit say I'm drinking to appear NT (even tho Im not drinking or NT) she says she wants to join. She comes over we meet on the street walk into my apartment. We sit on the couch and do a shot, she looks at me and like the first thing she says...

looksmax.org

​

See if it was just about being good looking.. women would have no excuse to not have sex with us. We've all had matches where they complimented on our looks right? And you tell her "Ok let's fuck". And she's like .. but.. idk.. maybe.. all these bullshit excuses.

You guys also forget women get INTIMIDATED by what they see as "good looking men" & and sabotage / self reject the situation because of their insecurities & lack of self esteem.

So if all you want is chicks complimenting you, staring at you, getting hundreds of matches on tinder, validation, etc then continue looksmaxxing till you're PSL 6.4535262

Comment below if you disagree & can refute my points. I'd love to hear it.

@alriodai @AscendingHero @Chintuck22 @Kingkellz @larsanova69 @Lmao @ShowerMaxxing @thecel @Uzezi @Toska @chadison @MostGLSlayer @SHARK @Corperal @Idfkbruh @Alexanderr @Gargantuan
​

Upcoming Threads
I applied to potentially model & got accepted
How To Prepare For a Night of Slaying
Infield Series (Proving/Disproving PSL-SMV)
5 Types of Attraction
Find your niche appeal. (Women have specific types they go for)

​

nice thread mostly but looks make the process waaaay easier for sure

 

[eduardkoopman]

He doesn't understand that you can't ague against a theory of causality by saying one thing doesn't guarantee the other, but only by providing empirical evidence that that is not the case generally. This is just sad.

Yeah. NOTHING correlates 100%. The only factor that correlates 100%, is the same factor as one is measuring it against.

I dunno what the exact correlation number is. Between looks attractiveness, and her finding him sexxually attractive an to go nail him. But I bet it's a big correlation, I think/beleive.

Studies probably shown correlation between these 2 things.

 

[loksr]

Physical attraction just means she finds you attractive. Doesn’t mean she wants to fuck you

You’re describing the experience of someone who’s high psl but low smv

it’s like if I look at a girl who’s good looking but also looks innocent or something, I can say “she looks good” without necessarily wanting to fuck her, it’s the same for girls.

a high smv male does not have to do shit. Sorry bro but looks are everything, you might rope if you found out how little truly attractive men have to do to get a girl

I’m not even chad but I had a 16 year old girlfriend when I was 14 who did all the work to ask me out, I cannot even begin to imagine what kind of life a legitimate chad has

 

[Tyronecell]

When the cope is too strong

Girls will throw themselves to a real chad, asking him to fuck in DMs

I like tyronelite's threads but I have too agree with u this time

 

[Selinity]

So you saw this theoretical chad smash all his matches?

We've never seen them smash but we have seen how girls seem glad and even eager to smash after a few vulgar texts. I understand that you should take it with a grain of salt, but as far as tinder experiments go, those are the best results you can get.

 

[Deleted member 10913]

The blackpill is dismissed boyos! Now go out and run numbers game and oh don't forget your personality!!

 

[tyronelite]

We've never seen them smash but we have seen how girls seem glad and even eager to smash after a few vulgar texts. I understand that you should take it with a grain of salt, but as far as tinder experiments go, those are the best results you can get.

A lot of this went over peoples heads. When I get off work, I’m gonna give an analogy that’ll clear everything up

 

[Stare]

If you are a good looking guy, or what women consider good looking some women will find you physically attractive & you'll have more attention. THATS IT

What does that mean?

All it means is a woman will see you & she'll say

"He looks good" Full Stop

"He's handsome" Full stop

"He's so hot" Full stop

UNDERSTAND THIS

Being good looking does not guarantee sex..
Being good looking does not guarantee you a girlfriend..
Being good looking does not guarantee women will find you sexually appealing..
​

Now can it help you in certain situations? Of course.. She'll give you the extra 15-30 sec to hear you out. But everything else after that you need to be sexually appealing to get her in bed.

​

See the problem is a lot of you guys still don't understand there's a difference between physical attraction & sexual attraction. Yes physical attraction can be part of the reason why she had sex with you but sexual attraction is not synonymous with physical attraction.

Being good looking is not the end all be all to have sex.

You have 2 choices
1) You can have women think you're good looking but you won't be fucking
2) You can have women think whatever they think about you, & you're fucking
​

Most of you would pick #2. You only want to be good looking cuz you think it'll get you closer to fucking. See you guys think it's going to be EASIER to get a woman to fuck.. no no no it's going to be EASIER to get a woman's ATTENTION. It's only easy to fuck if she finds you SEXUALLY APPEALING (another thread).

All you are is eye candy to most women.. the same way you stare at that stacy but you don't approach is the same way women are with good looking guys. They'll stare at you but they'll rarely make the move.

You being physically attractive can turn her on to the point she's sexually attracted to you because of the way you look, but in a lot of cases that's not how it goes. If a woman was just sexually attracted to a guy strictly to the way he looks, women would be fucking non stop lol

Data from men using tinder

View attachment 1152291

View attachment 1152292

vs your average chick using tinder JFL

View attachment 1152293

And my favorite from this normie #RIP

View attachment 1152306
​

I'm sure some of you guys had women who called you "handsome", "hot", etc and you didn't smash. Even Amnesia's tinder threads prove my point about it doesn't just end at being good looking. Most of us agree Amnesia is a "good looking guy" so why does he struggle & complain about some of his matches? Not putting him on blast, I'm just proving my points

Tinder date just left after 7 minutes (PART 2)

Read part 1 linked below But the TLDR is i matched a girl on a saturday night at like 3am and she came over immediately, thinking this was a certain easy fuck, she stayed 7 minutes and said she had to go leaving me like WTF happened. Like two months later, wondering why I got ghosted I sent her...

looksmax.org

I messaged over 35 girls across all my dating platforms trying to get some hangout tn

Fri night - I have like 2 girls semi responding tough life this dumb cunt

looksmax.org

Tinder date just left after 7 minutes

We match at 3am, she messages first whats up. We chat a bit say I'm drinking to appear NT (even tho Im not drinking or NT) she says she wants to join. She comes over we meet on the street walk into my apartment. We sit on the couch and do a shot, she looks at me and like the first thing she says...

looksmax.org

​

See if it was just about being good looking.. women would have no excuse to not have sex with us. We've all had matches where they complimented on our looks right? And you tell her "Ok let's fuck". And she's like .. but.. idk.. maybe.. all these bullshit excuses.

You guys also forget women get INTIMIDATED by what they see as "good looking men" & and sabotage / self reject the situation because of their insecurities & lack of self esteem.

So if all you want is chicks complimenting you, staring at you, getting hundreds of matches on tinder, validation, etc then continue looksmaxxing till you're PSL 6.4535262

Comment below if you disagree & can refute my points. I'd love to hear it.

@alriodai @AscendingHero @Chintuck22 @Kingkellz @larsanova69 @Lmao @ShowerMaxxing @thecel @Uzezi @Toska @chadison @MostGLSlayer @SHARK @Corperal @Idfkbruh @Alexanderr @Gargantuan
​

Upcoming Threads
I applied to potentially model & got accepted
How To Prepare For a Night of Slaying
Infield Series (Proving/Disproving PSL-SMV)
5 Types of Attraction
Find your niche appeal. (Women have specific types they go for)

​

very true

 

[Deleted member 7580]

Caged at the tinder graph, like 300 matches and only 10 lays

Better than me
I had 350+ Matches (probably more bcz many girls delete) and only 3 lays

or @Leo0509 with 1.5 k matches and 0 dates

game pill is too brutal

 

[Deleted member 13945]

Better than me
I had 350+ Matches (probably more bcz many girls delete) and only 3 lays

or @Leo0509 with 1.5 k matches and 0 dates

game pill is too brutal

good amount of ppl user tinder for validation only tho

 

[.👽.]

Better than me
I had 350+ Matches (probably more bcz many girls delete) and only 3 lays

or @Leo0509 with 1.5 k matches and 0 dates

game pill is too brutal

Lol what? I have way less matches but more results jfl. Game pill is real

Yea but leo showed me his chats he only sent "hi" to every match, girl said "hi' too, then he asked how are you etc. Chat died after 3 messages no wonder

 

[DrTony]

You dBetter than me

I had 350+ Matches (probably more bcz many girls delete) and only 3 lays

or @Leo0509 with 1.5 k matches and 0 dates

game pill is too brutalY

Better than me
I had 350+ Matches (probably more bcz many girls delete) and only 3 lays

or @Leo0509 with 1.5 k matches and 0 dates

game pill is too brutal

It wasn’t your lack of game. It was the fact she had better options. Take it from someone who has no game yet still managed 76 slays from OLD in the span of 2 years (august 18-august 20)

 

[.👽.]

You dBetter than me


It wasn’t your lack of game. It was the fact she had better options. Take it from someone who has no game yet still managed 76 slays from OLD in the span of 2 years (august 18-august 20)

Mirin. Mind share your profile in pm?

 

[Deleted member 7580]

Lol what? I have way less matches but more results jfl. Game pill is real

Yea but leo showed me his chats he only sent "hi" to every match, girl said "hi' too, then he asked how are you etc. Chat died after 3 messages no wonder

That’s actually my game too

But it can work irl idk

 

[Deleted member 7580]

You dBetter than me


It wasn’t your lack of game. It was the fact she had better options. Take it from someone who has no game yet still managed 76 slays from OLD in the span of 2 years (august 18-august 20)

Nope
I’ve seen some of these girls post stories with normie guys

My becky match who added me on snap posted her story on a bed with a bloated fuck with crooked teeth

 

[Deleted member 7580]

You dBetter than me


It wasn’t your lack of game. It was the fact she had better options. Take it from someone who has no game yet still managed 76 slays from OLD in the span of 2 years (august 18-august 20)

Btw what do you look like and what type of pics you using and what type of girls you smashing ?

You might be a dimorphic looking chad

 

[Deleted member 7580]

@DrTony @Hopelessmofoker btw ive chadfished few times and used same game and they were ghosted after few messages too

 

[Deleted member 12611]

@tyronelite when I destroy his thread:

 

[.👽.]

@DrTony @Hopelessmofoker btw ive chadfished few times and used same game and they were ghosted after few messages too

Same bro. Read my tyler maher thread. Bitches didnt answer that much, ghosted me etc but i got so many matches tho. Tinder is shit tbh

 

[Growth Plate]

Guys on here think if you are not autistic looking like David Gandy, you cannot get girls. I honestly think 90% of guys here are still in highschool, with their oneitis obsession. You would think girls are only fucking Gandy look alike.

jfl what are you even talking about
greycel moment

 

[fvolkek]

Amazing thread, this is exactly what i've been thinking but I couldn't put into words for a thread

There are users who unironically believe that high quality girls would have sex with a severely autistic Chad

They would.

 

[Deleted member 7580]

Same bro. Read my tyler maher thread. Bitches didnt answer that much, ghosted me etc but i got so many matches tho. Tinder is shit tbh

Yea I’ve used Maher and eriksen
Both got lots of matches but majority of girls ghosted

Few girls were easily down to fuck but meh they weren’t very attractive for chads

 

[.👽.]

Yea I’ve used Maher and eriksen
Both got lots of matches but majority of girls ghosted

Few girls were easily down to fuck but meh they weren’t very attractive for chads

I think bitches really use it mainly for validation. Getting matches from giga chads is enough maybe idk maybe its cope

 

[Deleted member 13945]

Same bro. Read my tyler maher thread. Bitches didnt answer that much, ghosted me etc but i got so many matches tho. Tinder is shit tbh

Yea I’ve used Maher and eriksen
Both got lots of matches but majority of girls ghosted

Few girls were easily down to fuck but meh they weren’t very attractive for chads

i wonder what it'd be like with more niche looking people, say some longhaired guy w tats
Maybe he'd get less matches but the matches he DID get would 100% be dtf

 

[.👽.]

i wonder what it'd be like with more niche looking people, say some longhaired guy w tats
Maybe he'd get less matches but the matches he DID get would 100% be dtf

I did one experiment with a stylemaxxed and tattoed HTN (in my tyler maher thread you can see him)

He got WAY more matches and way more chats started by girls. Tyler actually got 0 chat starts iirc, but many superlikes